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I just finished an enjoyable weekend running the GT4 at NOLA. Its a fun 2.75 mile flat and fast course with both slow, fast, and several double apex turns. In the never ending quest to shave time I discovered that the tall 2nd gear truly made all the difference in net performance. I was able to take a second off my personal best time in less-than-desirable overcast and damp conditions by getting down to 2nd gear in more turns.
Background, I am an intermediate level driver with about 15 DEs total. So, my discovery might be old news for seasoned pros, but it was enlightening for me so I thought I would share with the GT4 community.
The available power in 2nd is immense compared to 3rd when accelerating out of a turn. In addition to available power, the taller 2nd allows you to use engine braking to improve deceleration at many corners. If you are approaching a corner at below 65 mph, consider dropping into 2nd gear. You might find it will shave a few .10ths or more off your time.
In addition to better acceleration, and better deceleration, using 2nd does make the car more sensitive. That can be good thing in the overly composed GT4. I discovered I could use this sensitivity as a benefit to manage under steer. When approaching certain turns (an example would be a series of turns), using the tall 2nd gear allowed me to approach a corner faster and turn in with confidence. Try this: while in second, add throttle before a turn. This will result in instant speed and rock the car back on its' rears. Then, abruptly get off the throttle just before turn-in. The car will rock forward, plant the front wheels, and allow you to rotate with confidence and much less push.
More acceleration, more deceleration, and better rotation - I love the tall 2nd gear! My conclusion is the single biggest complaint of the car turns out to be one of the main ingredients to a quick and enjoyable time at the track.
Last edited by matttheboatman; 04-20-2016 at 03:24 PM.
Reason: Added pic
I've noticed how useful 2nd is at CotA compared to my E92, though there are still some areas where short shifting to 3rd and 4th are worthwhile IMHO. However, I don't quite follow your suggestion of getting on the throttle and then back off just before turn-in to shift weight forward. When you're still approaching turn-in, depending on your speed and the turn, you should either be on the throttle or the brake, so the suggestion of getting on the throttle seems either moot or counterproductive. Trailing off the throttle does indeed shift weight forward to help with understeer and is therefore a useful tactic mid-corner or even just before turn-in on corners where you didn't need to brake beforehand, but otherwise the benefits of forward weight transfer are reaped by trail braking, not by getting quickly on and back off the throttle prior to turn-in.
It depends very much on the course you are running. Sounds like 2nd gear is tall enough to use it at NOLA and you were right in the middle of the power band, whereas in another car you might be stuck with being low in the power band in 3rd or with no room to rev out at the top of 2nd.
However, say you are on a mountain road where there is a 35mph turn. You might be going too fast to bother with using 1st, but 2nd gear use slightly lower gearing to help launch out of the turn.
Very course dependent. There are some roads near Los Angeles that I appreciate the taller 2nd so that I am not shifting in the middle of the turn or having to upshift just before the end of a straight.
[QUOTE=jphughan;13216114]However, I don't quite follow your suggestion of getting on the throttle and then back off just before turn-in to shift weight forward. When you're still approaching turn-in, depending on your speed and the turn, you should either be on the throttle or the brake, so the suggestion of getting on the throttle seems either moot or counterproductive. /QUOTE]
An excellent observation as usual from you JP. Let me try to explain what I am saying...
So, in the scenario where there is a very short straight or a series of turns, my habit was to smoothly get on the throttle coming out of the previous turn in 3rd gear until I reached the point to tap the brake, then turn in. This was smooth and smooth is usually fast. But, with the GT4 I found that it required me to overly manage my turn in speed. I discovered this cost me time because either I was over-braking, or coming in too hot in an under-steer situation.
Instead, I'm suggesting to get the car down to 2nd gear, which will get you to the desired turn in point quicker, and when you reach that point, lifting while in 2nd has the similar effect on the car's attitude to braking. Your nose will drop much more abruptly when you lift in 2nd than in 3rd, and help you rotate without as much braking needed.
In my video attached, you will see me use this technique at about 1:45 on the youtube timeline, and at 1:58. (sorry for the poor quality)
OT: Never seen a track with such friendly run-off areas. You can really hit most of those corners at 10/10th's with no fear (assuming the grassy areas aren't muddy on a particular day). Looks like a golf fairway out there!
OT: Never seen a track with such friendly run-off areas. You can really hit most of those corners at 10/10th's with no fear (assuming the grassy areas aren't muddy on a particular day). Looks like a golf fairway out there!
YES! NOLA is wonderful. Only place that can really bite you is to get on the grass between 5&6, and after the last turn there is a wall past the rumble strips!
But, like a good golf course, if you relax too much and "go for it", you can pay the price. Several Clubsports did not make it home in one piece, one said goodbye to this world after only 1 week of service. So, as always, "take what is given, and you must fight to hold on for the rest".
An excellent observation as usual from you JP. Let me try to explain what I am saying...
So, in the scenario where there is a very short straight or a series of turns, my habit was to smoothly get on the throttle coming out of the previous turn in 3rd gear until I reached the point to tap the brake, then turn in. This was smooth and smooth is usually fast. But, with the GT4 I found that it required me to overly management my turn in speed. I discovered this cost me time because either I was over-braking, or coming in too hot in an under-steer situation.
Instead, I'm suggesting to get the car down to 2nd gear, which will get you to the desired turn in point quicker, and when you reach that point, lifting while in 2nd has the similar effect on the car's attitude to braking. Your nose will drop much more abruptly when you lift in 2nd than in 3rd, and help you rotate without as much braking needed.
In my video attached, you will see me use this technique at about 1:45 on the youtube timeline, and to a lesser extent at 1:58. (sorry for the poor quality)
Ok, yeah that makes perfect sense. But you're not adding throttle after exiting that right-hander purely to shift weight. You're adding it because the car will put the power down and it won't create so much additional work for the left-hander as to offset the gains from the extra throttle (compared to being less aggressive on the throttle to be smoother for the left-hander). That's exactly the right technique for that type of setup, and as you note, the forward weight transfer from lifting off in a lower gear is more pronounced than it is in a higher gear.
However, the new point you raise that confuses me is saying that you previously would roll through in 3rd gear (I assume you're talking about the right-hander) and tap the brake for the left-hander. If you were rolling through in 3rd and then having to brake for the left, and now you're shifting to 2nd prior to the right-hander and just throttle steering for the left, I don't think that's entirely due to the difference in throttle steer capacity between the two gears. I think you may have been charging the right-hander before, which was causing you to blow the left-hander too. That's particularly bad in this segment because the second corner is more valuable than the first since it leads to a longer straight, whereas the first corner leads almost immediately to another corner, and therefore it's worth sacrificing speed on the first corner to optimize for the second. But now that you're trying 2nd prior to the right-hander, I bet what's happened is you're slowing the car down more (to avoid an over-rev on the downshift) and it turns out that that was the proper way to attack this complex all along -- slow in, fast out wins again! You could probably slow to this same lower entry speed for the right-hander while staying in 3rd without creating any extra throttle or brake work for you on the left (in fact it might even be less since you'd have built less speed between the two corners from having stayed in 3rd), but it would also probably be slower as long as 2nd isn't unwieldy in that segment, which it doesn't seem to be.
And on a general note, I can totally see why you're loving the tall 2nd gear in that segment!
Ok, yeah that makes perfect sense. But you're not adding throttle after exiting that right-hander purely to shift weight. You're adding it because the car will put the power down and you still won't be going so fast by the time you reach the left-hander that you won't be able to manage turn-in with just some throttle steer. That's exactly the right technique for that type of setup, and as you note, the forward weight transfer from lifting off in a lower gear is more pronounced than it is in a higher gear.
However, the new point you raise that confuses me is saying that you previously would roll through in 3rd gear (I assume you're talking about the right-hander) and tap the brake for the left-hander. If you were rolling through in 3rd and then having to brake for the left, and now you're shifting to 2nd prior to the right-hander and just throttle steering for the left, you were probably charging the right-hander before, which was causing you to blow the left-hander too. That's particularly bad in this type of complex because the second corner is much more valuable than the first because it leads to a straight, whereas the first corner leads almost immediately to another corner, and therefore it's worth sacrificing speed on the first corner to optimize for the second.
But more to the point, there's no inherent reason why you'd have more throttle management to do by staying in 3rd the way you did before. I suspect what's happened here is that your desire to downshift to 2nd prior to the right-hander has caused you to slow the car down more (to avoid an over-rev on the shift) and it turns out that that was the proper way to attack this complex all along -- slow in, fast out wins again! Theoretically you could slow to that same speed while staying in 3rd for the right-hander without creating any extra throttle work for you on the left (in fact it would be less since you'd have built less speed from having stayed in 3rd), but it would probably be slower as long as 2nd isn't unwieldy in that segment, which it doesn't seem to be.
I've got to acknowledge once again, JP that you really know your stuff!
What you are saying may be indeed true.
But, the place I really see the car closing on other cars is coming out of turns while in 2nd. Wow, its a big difference. I acknowledge that sometimes this requires me to up-shift before I'm finished unwinding. This is very unnerving for a rookie driver like me! But, as I say, its faster so I will practice it more. Also, I think those with LWB seats and LWB+harness will find it easier vs me holding on with my (slightly) large body while shifting up to 3rd with g-forces still pushing my body to the side while shifting.
I've got to acknowledge once again, JP that you really know your stuff!
What you are saying may be indeed true.
But, the place I really see the car closing on other cars is coming out of turns while in 2nd. Wow, its a big difference. I acknowledge that sometimes this requires me to up-shift before I'm finished unwinding. This is very unnerving for a rookie driver like me! But, as I say, its faster so I will practice it more. Also, I think those with LWB seats and LWB+harness will find it easier vs me holding on with my (slightly) large body while shifting up to 3rd with g-forces still pushing my body to the side while shifting.
Thanks! I refined my thinking a little bit since you quoted that post, but I'm glad you find this stuff interesting as I do, and if it's also useful then so much the better!
Yeah, I've definitely started reeling in cars on 2nd gear corner exits at CotA too, which is nice compared to when I used to roll through in 3rd and then be stuck below the power band for a while, especially when I had just closed to passing range on another car. Mid-corner upshifts can be hairy, but sometimes they're unavoidable if the corner is a long sweeper. CotA has one of those and I'm still deciding what I want to do there. As it happens, there's a segment where you need to trail the throttle anyway in order to get the car to tuck in start heading for the apex, and that's not a bad time to shift, but one time through there I messed up my timing, which caused me to take a bit longer to complete the shift, and in that extra time the rear end started to come loose enough that the ESC light flashed at me briefly -- and CotA's carousel has claimed a few cars that lifted in the middle of that sweeper. I've previously tried short shifting prior to entering the whole thing, but that's definitely slower. Since I was last there, someone else suggested a different point for completing that shift that I'll be trying when I'm next there in June. Experimentation is half the fun!
Most GT4 owners I speak to do not emphasize the effect of engine braking on the car's ability to stop. I've had guys ask me if I go from 4th to 2nd without stopping at 3rd. No! Others, have said that the car does not need engine braking because the brakes are so good. This has some truth to it, but engine braking takes it to another level. And, others warn about the possibility of exceeding red line if you are over-aggressive downshifting too quickly. True, you must know when it is safe to shift!
I started driving with PDK. I came to love how PDK car's downshift and decelerate much quicker than manual cars. I've tried to emulate that darn computer in my car.
Based on my PDK experience, I've trained myself to use engine braking as an integral part of the braking process. And, once again, I will say that corners that could be taken in 2nd gear have the added benefit of an extra level of stopping with 2nd gear engine braking.
Most GT4 owners I speak to do not emphasize the effect of engine braking on the car's ability to stop. I've had guys ask me if I go from 4th to 2nd without stopping at 3rd. No! Others, have said that the car does not need engine braking because the brakes are so good. This has some truth to it, but engine braking takes it to another level. And, others warn about the possibility of exceeding red line if you are over-aggressive downshifting too quickly. True, you must know when it is safe to shift!
I started driving with PDK. I came to love how PDK car's downshift and decelerate much quicker than manual cars. I've tried to emulate that darn computer in my car.
Based on my PDK experience, I've trained myself to use engine braking as an integral part of the braking process. And, once again, I will say that corners that could be taken in 2nd gear have the added benefit of an extra level of stopping with 2nd gear engine braking.
Did I mention I love 2nd gear? !!!
I'm definitely a fan of engine braking, and I don't skip shift or even pass through shift gates without letting the clutch out for each gear. I may do that on the freeway for quick passes, but definitely not in braking zones on track because as you say, engine braking is useful. That said, I also have some over-rev paranoia, so I fully admit that I'm not on a mission to absolutely maximize its potential, especially because the brakes ARE extremely good all on their own (at least with the OEM tires), and if the extra deceleration from engine braking on top of full pedal braking overwhelms the tires and therefore trips ABS, now you've actually LOST some ground. If I were a race driver I would know exactly where to downshift to achieve maximum deceleration without overwhelming the tires (for all I know the GT4 could be downshifted at the earliest possible moment and still not overwhelm the OEM tires), but I'm just a fairly new HPDE instructor who's more interested in having a great time and teaching others than trying to break lap records.
Engine braking may have some advantages with respect to balance (as it affects only the rear axle), but in terms of stopping power, the limiting factor is the friction between tires and track. If you can brake hard enough to engage the ABS in neutral (and I think you can at nearly any relevant speed in the GT4), then any amount of engine braking is not contributing to a shorter stopping distance.
If the brakes alone aren't giving you that much power into the braking zone, then maybe aftermarket pads/fluid could be in order (loving my Brembo RE10 pads, btw).
Engine braking may have some advantages with respect to balance (as it affects only the rear axle), but in terms of stopping power, the limiting factor is the friction between tires and track. If you can brake hard enough to engage the ABS in neutral (and I think you can at nearly any relevant speed in the GT4), then any amount of engine braking is not contributing to a shorter stopping distance.
When I get full on the brakes on the back straight at CotA with warm tires doing 140-ish, I don't trip ABS right away, in fact ABS doesn't trip even when I downshift (the first time) to increase engine braking, so it does have some value at least while still in the higher speed range. However, ABS will definitely kick in once the car drops to lower speeds and is downshifted to shorter gears that increase engine braking, which is why I start reducing pedal pressure as my speed drops to keep that from happening. And while it's true that engine braking only applies to the rear axle, it still affects balance because the extra deceleration moves more weight forward.
I definitely don't drive in a style to trigger ABS intentionally, but I have the confidence at virtually every turn at my track that I could if I pressed the pedal hard enough. I'm also not so sure that adding additional rear braking from the engine gives additional forward weight transfer when max braking, but I could be wrong...
Engine braking seems more useful once into a corner where it will affect handling balance.
If engine braking on the rear axle really did contribute to shorter stopping distances, one could achieve the same effect (or further enhance it) by using the hand-brake (on a car old enough to have one) in the braking zone
04-20-2016, 03:17 PM
Tall 2nd gear makes all the difference
