718 GT4?
#5431
I agree completely. I still desire a 911 GT3, but mostly because of the extra hp, the sound, the looks and maybe because it is so iconic, but in reality the rear engine is a flawed design. Some aspects can be used as an advantage, but overall it isn't ideal to have that weight hang out the back. We all know it and I don't care what the purists say. The latest proof is that Porsche moved the engine in the 992 forward YET AGAIN! Another 20 cm further fwd. At what point will it just be considered a mid engine car.
The 992 uses a completely new engine mounting system that finally ditches the traditional rear engine carrier arm. In the new system the mounts are part of the rear structure and are 168 mm further forward and 113 mm further outboard. This new positioning improves isolation from road shock and improves body control by reducing vertical engine movement within the chassis.
No idea if the engine itself is mounted forward at all, but if so, 20 mm (0.8 inch) seems more likely. (20 cm = 8 inch)
#5432
Not the engine itself is moved forward, but the engine mounts:
The 992 uses a completely new engine mounting system that finally ditches the traditional rear engine carrier arm. In the new system the mounts are part of the rear structure and are 168 mm further forward and 113 mm further outboard. This new positioning improves isolation from road shock and improves body control by reducing vertical engine movement within the chassis.
No idea if the engine itself is mounted forward at all, but if so, 20 mm (0.8 inch) seems more likely. (20 cm = 8 inch)
The 992 uses a completely new engine mounting system that finally ditches the traditional rear engine carrier arm. In the new system the mounts are part of the rear structure and are 168 mm further forward and 113 mm further outboard. This new positioning improves isolation from road shock and improves body control by reducing vertical engine movement within the chassis.
No idea if the engine itself is mounted forward at all, but if so, 20 mm (0.8 inch) seems more likely. (20 cm = 8 inch)
#5433
I agree completely. I still desire a 911 GT3, but mostly because of the extra hp, the sound, the looks and maybe because it is so iconic, but in reality the rear engine is a flawed design. Some aspects can be used as an advantage, but overall it isn't ideal to have that weight hang out the back. We all know it and I don't care what the purists say. The latest proof is that Porsche moved the engine in the 992 forward YET AGAIN! Another 20mm further fwd. At what point will it just be considered a mid engine car.
It needs to be driven differently and many people won't be ok with that, but that doesn't mean it's not capable of great things in the right hands. The greatest things, even.
#5434
I'll never accept that the rear-engine design is inherently flawed. Not while they're still world-beaters in this day and age. The GT2RS took the Nurburgring lap record on it's release. That tells me the layout is just fine.
It needs to be driven differently and many people won't be ok with that, but that doesn't mean it's not capable of great things in the right hands. The greatest things, even.
It needs to be driven differently and many people won't be ok with that, but that doesn't mean it's not capable of great things in the right hands. The greatest things, even.
#5435
I'll never accept that the rear-engine design is inherently flawed. Not while they're still world-beaters in this day and age. The GT2RS took the Nurburgring lap record on it's release. That tells me the layout is just fine.
It needs to be driven differently and many people won't be ok with that, but that doesn't mean it's not capable of great things in the right hands. The greatest things, even.
It needs to be driven differently and many people won't be ok with that, but that doesn't mean it's not capable of great things in the right hands. The greatest things, even.
Driving a Cayman is very drama free. A 911 is more work, yet more rewarding.
#5436
Drifting
#5437
If in fact is was THAT good to have the engine in the back, why is Porsche continuing to move it forward, to the point where some consider it almost a mid engine now?
#5438
.1 Carrera S on street tires turned a 4 second faster Ring time than the 981GT4 on Cup 2s. The idea that it's as simple as mid engined > rear engined is laughable. The 911 chassis is a work of art that's been refined over decades. As the owner of both, if I had to win a race, particularly down a windy public road, I'd take the Carrera all day. I don't think one's better than the other per se, but the idea that the rear engined Carrera is hamstrung is a joke.
#5439
Rennlist Member
Why does everyone insist on arguing about which is the “better” engine placement (rear or mid)? Can’t we agree to disagree? Some people find one more appealing than the other. SO WHAT! Live and let live. To each their own.
It’s a good thing we don’t all see it the same way - life would be boring. But I get tired of people trying to insist their viewpoint is “correct”.
It all depends on the individual and what they enjoy. I”m not talking about lap times or breaking records. I’m talking about which platform to own, and what brings the most pleasure which is completely subjective, individual, and not something that may be “argued” and won or lost.
Not to mention it’s off topic. I keep logging back here to see more 718 info and am repeatedly disappointed by the arguments that ensue - having nothing to do with NEW info on the 718 GT4. But that’s Rennlist...
#5440
Rennlist Member
The rear engine platform would have ended in the 80s, in favor of the front middle engine 928, if Peter Schultz hadn't made a convincing argument to the board.
Stubborn Porsche continues to massage it using electronic intervention and RAS so it won't kill it's occupants with drop throttle oversteer, unlike the 930 that tried it's best to do so back in high school, so I may be biased.
Given the same engine and rear suspension sophistication, a middle rear engine platform would be faster and more forgiving.
Stubborn Porsche continues to massage it using electronic intervention and RAS so it won't kill it's occupants with drop throttle oversteer, unlike the 930 that tried it's best to do so back in high school, so I may be biased.
Given the same engine and rear suspension sophistication, a middle rear engine platform would be faster and more forgiving.
#5441
There are certainly advantages to having the engine placed in the rear of the car. One of the largest advantages that I noticed when I switched from my GT4 to my current 991.2 Carrera was how much sooner and harder I was able to roll into the throttle on corner exit. Also, the 911 has pretty incredible traction in the rain given its rearward weight bias + large contact patch. I realize this is the GT4 forum and the bias will naturally lean toward the GT4 and mid-engine, but speaking from experience, I really have grown to enjoy the unique characteristic traits of driving a 911 vs. how user friendly and naturally easy the GT4 was to drive at the limit.
#5442
.1 Carrera S on street tires turned a 4 second faster Ring time than the 981GT4 on Cup 2s. The idea that it's as simple as mid engined > rear engined is laughable. The 911 chassis is a work of art that's been refined over decades. As the owner of both, if I had to win a race, particularly down a windy public road, I'd take the Carrera all day. I don't think one's better than the other per se, but the idea that the rear engined Carrera is hamstrung is a joke.
#5443
Banned
They say that braking is that last few % diff that separates very good from great drivers. I used to be a mid-engine fan that poo-pooed the rear engine 911 "kool aid" as a Porsche marketing gimmick. I went from Green to Black in a bone stock 987.1 Boxster S (with standard suspension), keeping up with 911's and even GT3's on the way there. Then, as I improved and became faster, it just happened that I replaced the Boxster with a 996 GT3 (mainly for more safety) and I became aware of the huge advantage that rear-engined 911s have when late (trail-) braking into turns. The rear-biased weight distribution becomes EVENLY spread front/rear under strong braking, providing grip on all four patches where most other cars only use the front pair with the rear up in the air. This allows 911s to brake much later into turns and to allocate grip on all four patches as the car flies/dances into the turn. The joyful feeling of a perfectly executed turn in a 911 can not be repeated with any other car. This is followed by massive rear end grip as you catapult out of the corner.
I still love Boxsters. I race one and I am buying a 987.1 Box S tomorrow for open top back-roads fun (miss my first one a lot), but I am now also a rear-engine 911 convert. The narrative behind the 911 "magic" is much more than marketing and "kool aid".
The engine in the new RSR was moved more towards the middle mostly so they can fit larger rear diffusers for larger down-force.
I still love Boxsters. I race one and I am buying a 987.1 Box S tomorrow for open top back-roads fun (miss my first one a lot), but I am now also a rear-engine 911 convert. The narrative behind the 911 "magic" is much more than marketing and "kool aid".
The engine in the new RSR was moved more towards the middle mostly so they can fit larger rear diffusers for larger down-force.
#5444
Rennlist Member
#5445
Sooooo...is the new Rumor on the 718 GT4 it will have a rear engine or mid engine design? But I'll add my $0.02
Come on....each design has its Pros and Cons, some drivers will prefer one over the other and some will be faster in rear vs mid and vice versa.
They are different tools and behave differently.....at the end of the day it's the person behind the steering wheel the one that will make the most (or worst) out of the package.
Come on....each design has its Pros and Cons, some drivers will prefer one over the other and some will be faster in rear vs mid and vice versa.
They are different tools and behave differently.....at the end of the day it's the person behind the steering wheel the one that will make the most (or worst) out of the package.