Diablo Dude

I've been reading your posts on this thread and it sounds like you spend an awful lot of time on the track, given how much you repeatedly "talk-up" the 718.
Tell me, what are you currently driving and how many track days do you participate in during the year?
What tracks?

GP Racing

You could have PM me and we could have arranged a coffee. I don't do enough track days that is for sure. Not in NA. Hope to change this with the new car. So you would be wrong about my time on the track. Not a professional driver either. Had all sorts of 981s previously, experience in dirt track and karts as well. Does this change my credibility? But I can appreciate specifications and reviews and cannot understand all the negativity about the new car. The 981 GT4 is a great car but as hard as it is to believe the 718 GT4 will be better in all areas. Otherwise I would just go out and get a second hand 981 GT4 now. The wait will be worth it for me.

Petevb

997.2 GT3 RS equivalent ratios would work great. No inefficient jumps or lowered top speed vs the GT4, and the shorter 2nd gear didn’t hurt that car at on the track in the slightest. I also don’t buy the idea that the tall gearing was required for emissions or cost. Both are like saying the 3.8 x51 or GT3 engines don’t fit- possibly technically true if you’re unwilling to do the slightest modifications, but not something Porsche engineers couldn’t easily overcome if they felt like it.

The real answer for why they won’t lower the gear ratios is both simple and one they can’t admit- it would make the car too good. Drop 2nd gear by 10 mph and you’d drop 0-60 by a few 10ths, harry GT3s at the autocross and make the car more enjoyable on back-roads. All of these would threaten or eclipse the nexts rungs up in Porsche’s cost/ performance ladder making those cars seem like significantly worse “value”. And while it is in Porsche’s interest to appeal to a hardcore audience on a relative budget it’s absolutely not in their interest to upset their apple cart. So much like the 944 turbo (the GT4’s spiritual predecessor) expect it to be hobbled until either it gets more expensive or the cars above it in Porsche’s lineup get faster (see the 944 Turbo S and the release of the 964).

Porsche can reduce the GT4’s gear ratios. They choose not to.

Petevb

Lap time difference is about what you’d expect given Porsche’s typical progression, about 1/2 of which is down to tires. 460 (981 GT4) to 448 seconds for reference...

groundhog

Going to have to disagree with you Pete



and

look at the gearing change points relative the torque curve below



2nd gives you an excellent charge through the full meat of the torque curve and starts from the beginning of the meat in the torque curve - the change into 3rd and 4th occur at peak torque delivering the max HP that the engine can provide for the RPM at that point. On track you're not really going to go below 4500 rpm when up and running. . A long second also gives optionality for short shifting to third e.g. flat shift into third at 5000rpm if the circumstances required it.

Now whether this is ideal for road cruising or daily driving is a totally different question - perhaps people want turbo chargers and dirt rally style short gearing .

Now to the tires - ran N0s and N1s extensively (on the same car). The N1 definitely has better wet weather performance but in the dry the difference isn't great, perhaps 0.3s a minute and most definitely not game changing and the N2's at best are a marginal improvement on the N1s - the MPSC2 R are a different kettle of fish all together based on times, definitely cheat rubber wrapping the tires for a few mm. .

Probably the two biggest handicaps to the 718 GT4 all round performance are the absence of PDK and they are going to rectify this, and the absence of multi-link rear suspension.

Petevb

As usual. But you’ll usually get there eventually.

Put the power curve and gearing through an acceleration and lap time simulator. Or re-do your graphs as a thrust to weight curve. Or look at the 997.2 GT3 gearing vs the 997.2 GT3 RS gearing (and lap times) and explain why Porsche felt the RS was an improvement over the base GT3 gearing. Or even look at the surveys of owners on this site of existing GT4 owners asking what speed they would prefer 2nd gear to end at. Single biggest issue with the car.

You’re familiar with thrust to weight curves? Such as:

groundhog

Hi Pete, yes get it, Y axis being lineal g (lineal acceleration) and the paired colours are your selected gear changes with the highest lineal g representing first re-geared and so on so forth to progressively lower lineal g (e.g. 1 thru 6). Is this a a total theoretical re-gear as in individual cogs or a suggested change to the final reduction ratio. I would certainly be interested in the time difference between a 2nd to end 4th gear pull. Nice graphs - I'm sure you see where I'm coming from as well

groundhog

From Steve Sutcliffe at EVO magazine (who also happens to be an excellent driver)

"As for the chassis, steering, brakes and body control in general, it’s hard to know where to start. Or, more to the point, when to stop with the tidal wave of praise. The GT4 is that rarest of cars that manages to combine true feel, true interaction and, therefore, huge emotional connection while at the same time providing immense objective capability. In other words, it feels massively exciting and massively fast, and it is. And the soundtrack it generates, and which accompanies your every move above 5000rpm, is enough to bring a very slight tear to your eye on occasions."

and

"The GT4’s asking price of £75, 348 puts it in a league of one amongst mid-engined cars at this level, and that’s before you so much as mention the fact that it is 100 per cent epic to drive. A Jaguar F Type SVR costs more money and doesn’t get a look in overall beside the GT4. A McLaren 570S costs twice as much money yet, pound for pound, might well struggle to level with a GT4 overall. An amazing car at an amazing price, and one that is entirely without rivals at this moment in time."

AutoExpress

"It’s hardly that surprising the GT4 is as quick as Porsche claims it is around the Nurburgring. For 75 grand it is, genuinely, one of the biggest performance car bargains of the last decade."

deputydog95

Lowering the top speed would not hurt my feelings... Even if you could manage to find a place to run it to the top end, how long could you possibly sustain that? With probably 99.9% of owners not exceeding 150mph, why not lower top speed to improve gearing?

I've been racing for a while now. Even the fastest cars at our PCA events (cup car), rarely exceed 160-165 mph at the biggest tracks. The GT4 wouldn't get anywhere near that so the argument that it could be use on a circuit isn't really plausible...

Is what it is. Porsche chose this so the choices are don't buy it, or buy it and live with it. Just seems like it would be a very dull car to drive in town. At least not driving like a complete *** hat Disappointing. I guess you could crack the box open and redo the gearing, but between the expense and voiding your warranty, you would be better served looking at a used low option point 2 GT3...

blackholescion

They set top speed for the autobahn and not for racetracks. I would take 10-15 less MPH for better ratios, but alas, here we are. We at least talk to the common folk as "my car does 190".

GrantG

Porsche does not limit top speed in its GT cars (unless the tires can't cope, as in the GT2 RS). In Germany, letting the cars achieve their true Vmax is important (land of the Autobahn). And when you drive there (and on the Nordschleife) you cannot imagine lowering the gears further. In fact, even Pete Stout finds the current top gear in the GT4 and GT3 too low for highway use (I disagree).

GrantG

They gear it for both Autobahn and Racetrack (not plural), Nordschleife. I've done over 180 mph on that track in a current Porsche - lower gears there make no sense - it's a German car

Do Euro Delivery and you'll love the gearing there...

BioBanker

And these are where I think it will all settle out. The experience and the emotional connection to the car is probably not changed. For sure the car is a bit faster due to engine, but probably not materially so. For sure aero is better, but most will only see those benefits rarely if ever. The cars look about the same to most with minor updates inside and out, not all of which appeal to all.

Same awesome car. A bit faster but aside from top of 2nd probably not that noticeable. It seems that they upped the performance slightly without wrecking the special experience that is a GT4. It’s just a matter of time until they produce a ***** to the wall one IMO.

loungin

The majority of car journalists make their money by penning superlatives and I’m now skeptical whether they really know how to drive or even if they understand what they’re saying.

I think I’ll believe it more when groundhog gets his hands on one and writes his review. =)


BTW if people have forgotten, the 981 by default does not start in auto blip mode. You have to turn that on. Same as the 718. They just relabeled the button. People must be confusing this car with the M2.

Also fully disabling PSM is a one button operation. There is a button for just turning off PSM, leaving TC on, and another one for turning TC off as well. These don’t seem to have changed between 981 and 718 models.

bk_911

I think it's in the carfection interview where Andreas says in the 981 they named the button sport because they already had an off the shelf button and it was too late prior to production to change its label so they went with it.