718 GT4?
07-11-2019, 02:34 PM
#8131
Hate to repeat again what was previously stated; Manthey took a 981 GT4, did a couple of minor suspension and alignment mods and was 13 sec better than PAG official time on old tires and track. BTW that is 1sec quicker than new 718 with more power and better aero. Need to get a kool-aid refill now.
http://automototale.com/news-feature...-rs-ring-time/
07-11-2019, 02:37 PM
#8132
Drifting
Yes, the N-Ring evolves over time, section by section, positively and negatively. And yes, tire improvements are incremental and don't account for all that much with any given change in formula.
But by the same token, as I pointed out above, Porsche established the Carrera GT at the 'Ring by running a 7:28.71 on the same 20,600 meter track they run today, using whatever were the best tires they had in 2004. And that was with 600hp, 435tq, and 3050 pounds of road-hugging weight.
Now 15 years later they run the identical time with a 420hp, 309tq 3120# vehicle? Maybe a little lighter because of PCCB and buckets, but still a little heavier and taller than the C-GT.
I'm assuming Porsche used their best pilot, on a clear, dry track to get the C-GT time, just like with today's cars. If so, we're looking at some HUGE changes that must be attributable to the ability of the tire and the track to stick to each other. I have no idea if the track, on the whole, was stickier or less sticky in 2004 than it is today. But tires are a lot sticker. If they have gotten that much stickier over 15 years, assuming there wasn't some windfall nano-tech that caused a huge improvement in one iteration, we'd have to assume there was roughly a fifth of the total improvement every 3 years. So it's not unreasonable to assume that tire development over 3 years has a non-negligible effect on these times.
Another example: 2013 Marc Lieb turns a 6:57.0 in the 918. Five years later -- FIVE YEARS -- we get an official GT3RS time of 6:56.4. With exactly one-half as much horsepower and poorer aero. It's hard to understand, at least for my pea-sized brain.
I think the point peeps are making about 981 vs. 718 is simply this: An average driver who owns a stock 981 GT4 and stock 718GT4 (sometime in the future), both on the same exact tires, and takes them both to the NRing on the same day and drives them back to back in, say, Session 3 of the day, when he's well warmed up and consistent, but not yet fatigued, is unlikely to see a 12 second difference in time with the newer car.
All of which, of course, is pure bench racing. If you outrun me or I outrun you and either of us is driving either of the GT4 models, it will surely be due to one of our skill level being higher than the other one. And that will probably be yours.
But by the same token, as I pointed out above, Porsche established the Carrera GT at the 'Ring by running a 7:28.71 on the same 20,600 meter track they run today, using whatever were the best tires they had in 2004. And that was with 600hp, 435tq, and 3050 pounds of road-hugging weight.
Now 15 years later they run the identical time with a 420hp, 309tq 3120# vehicle? Maybe a little lighter because of PCCB and buckets, but still a little heavier and taller than the C-GT.
I'm assuming Porsche used their best pilot, on a clear, dry track to get the C-GT time, just like with today's cars. If so, we're looking at some HUGE changes that must be attributable to the ability of the tire and the track to stick to each other. I have no idea if the track, on the whole, was stickier or less sticky in 2004 than it is today. But tires are a lot sticker. If they have gotten that much stickier over 15 years, assuming there wasn't some windfall nano-tech that caused a huge improvement in one iteration, we'd have to assume there was roughly a fifth of the total improvement every 3 years. So it's not unreasonable to assume that tire development over 3 years has a non-negligible effect on these times.
Another example: 2013 Marc Lieb turns a 6:57.0 in the 918. Five years later -- FIVE YEARS -- we get an official GT3RS time of 6:56.4. With exactly one-half as much horsepower and poorer aero. It's hard to understand, at least for my pea-sized brain.
I think the point peeps are making about 981 vs. 718 is simply this: An average driver who owns a stock 981 GT4 and stock 718GT4 (sometime in the future), both on the same exact tires, and takes them both to the NRing on the same day and drives them back to back in, say, Session 3 of the day, when he's well warmed up and consistent, but not yet fatigued, is unlikely to see a 12 second difference in time with the newer car.
All of which, of course, is pure bench racing. If you outrun me or I outrun you and either of us is driving either of the GT4 models, it will surely be due to one of our skill level being higher than the other one. And that will probably be yours.
07-11-2019, 02:53 PM
#8133
(Flugplatz/Schwedenkreuz, Kallenhard, Wehrseifen, Ex-Mühle, Hohe Acht)
I think the point peeps are making about 981 vs. 718 is simply this: An average driver who owns a stock 981 GT4 and stock 718GT4 (sometime in the future), both on the same exact tires, and takes them both to the NRing on the same day and drives them back to back in, say, Session 3 of the day, when he's well warmed up and consistent, but not yet fatigued, is unlikely to see a 12 second difference in time with the newer car.
We have a WINNER!
I think people are trying to say a + b does not equal c. A + b + new tires + nring changes = c. We can debate how much the last two impact the time difference but you keep trying to dismiss them and attribute all the time gained to aero and power.
Consider (a) 718 GT4 nring lap time is faster then the 991.1 GT3 (b) the 991.1 GT3 has more power, better gearing/pdk, more capable suspension, similar aero and weight, (c) additional factors external to the car like tires and track changes must be considered to account for the entirety of the improved nurburgring lap time.
Consider (a) 718 GT4 nring lap time is faster then the 991.1 GT3 (b) the 991.1 GT3 has more power, better gearing/pdk, more capable suspension, similar aero and weight, (c) additional factors external to the car like tires and track changes must be considered to account for the entirety of the improved nurburgring lap time.
You are making too much sense.
07-11-2019, 03:14 PM
#8134
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In terms of the pricing debate I wonder how much it cost Porsche to replace a large number of transmissions in the 981 cars. Given they are putting in a brand new (well engineered but untested) engine, they baked in some additional insurance into the MSRP anticipating the probability of possible recalls on a new power train.
I think this is a reason Porsche bothers to torque-limit the GT4 motors, so as not to exceed the specification (even slightly) of the gearbox which could jeopardize Porsche’s ability to hold the supplier liable for failures.
07-11-2019, 03:55 PM
#8135
Quit Smokin'
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07-11-2019, 05:06 PM
#8136
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I don't think anyone is saying the 981 GT4 is bad, its clearly not 
in fact quite the opposite its a great car thats has been improved on The only thing that stopped me buying a 718 GT4 was the absence of PDK - a must have for me personally. I was aware of this liklihood sometime ago hence I lucked out on a 991.2 GT3 RS. However, I would not have been disappointed by a 718 GT4 PDK.
in fact quite the opposite its a great car thats has been improved on The only thing that stopped me buying a 718 GT4 was the absence of PDK - a must have for me personally. I was aware of this liklihood sometime ago hence I lucked out on a 991.2 GT3 RS. However, I would not have been disappointed by a 718 GT4 PDK.
07-11-2019, 05:29 PM
#8138
07-11-2019, 05:55 PM
#8139
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With the automatic rev-matching feature in the GT4, it doesn't take an expert to wring the performance out of that gearbox (heel-toe downshifting is the most challenging aspect for a novice).
In the GT3, there is a 37-pound weight penalty for the 7spd PDK over the 6M (and the PDK loses over 10hp more to the wheels than the Manual, due to its wet clutches). If the GT4 uses the new 8spd PDK (as some rumors suggest), then the weight penalty will be significantly larger than 37 pounds. If the GT4 uses the heavy 8spd PDK and does not unleash the mid-range torque via ECU, there is some chance it will actually be slower than the Manual (but I think they will tune it for more torque and possibly HP also).
07-11-2019, 06:20 PM
#8140
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Just saw that the new GT4 will also have the No-Lift Shifting feature, confirmed by AP at 5:30 here where they call it "Speed Shift":
07-11-2019, 06:50 PM
#8141
Just saw that the new GT4 will also have the No-Lift Shifting feature, confirmed by AP at 5:30 here where they call it "Speed Shift":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s57v9x_imug
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s57v9x_imug
07-11-2019, 07:59 PM
#8142
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Brief reviews. I am not affiliated with Porsche in any way. Just an enthusiast like everybody else.
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/review...n-gt4-preview/
https://www.news.com.au/technology/i...6cec25e8726982
https://www.carsales.com.au/editoria...tional-119442/
https://www.automobilemag.com/news/2...-drive-review/
https://www.cnet.com/roadshow/review...n-gt4-preview/
https://www.news.com.au/technology/i...6cec25e8726982
https://www.carsales.com.au/editoria...tional-119442/
https://www.automobilemag.com/news/2...-drive-review/
07-11-2019, 08:18 PM
#8143
A partial new track surface will only yield faster times when it is bedded in and this takes time - the amount being dependent on many parameters including weather, usage and ashphalt mix.
Changes to straights do not make a large difference generally. Corners resurfaced can make an improvement however this can be reduced and in fact made worse by the transition to the old surface due to different levels of grip.
The dry grip levels between the MPSC2 N0 thru N2 are minimal at best - I have done many logged runs on N0 and N1 and would be hard pressed to tell the difference in the dry - likewise N2 on my RS which so far feel no different to N1 and still remain sketchy in the wet like N1. The N1 and N2 are clearly able to shed water better than the N0 - and it is this difference that is most significant between the tires.
Its abundantly clear the new engine is much stronger up top with increased torque and power here - 35HP is a good chunk with a warranty.
The aero package also looks very strong particularly the rear diffuser. The unit in the GT4 is much larger and deeper than the unit on my RS. Thus must contribute significant down force without adding drag.
Its hard to know what to make of the suspension package at this stage as figures aren't available - however the addition of more rose jointing will give the car a much more focussed feel and certainly remove any extraneous slop.
Looks like a great package to me and I'm pretty sure you can bank that time difference.
I suspect the car will get great reviews particularly if looked at through the lens of a genuinely track able road car built by the GT team with improvements made across the board.
Changes to straights do not make a large difference generally. Corners resurfaced can make an improvement however this can be reduced and in fact made worse by the transition to the old surface due to different levels of grip.
The dry grip levels between the MPSC2 N0 thru N2 are minimal at best - I have done many logged runs on N0 and N1 and would be hard pressed to tell the difference in the dry - likewise N2 on my RS which so far feel no different to N1 and still remain sketchy in the wet like N1. The N1 and N2 are clearly able to shed water better than the N0 - and it is this difference that is most significant between the tires.
Its abundantly clear the new engine is much stronger up top with increased torque and power here - 35HP is a good chunk with a warranty.
The aero package also looks very strong particularly the rear diffuser. The unit in the GT4 is much larger and deeper than the unit on my RS. Thus must contribute significant down force without adding drag.
Its hard to know what to make of the suspension package at this stage as figures aren't available - however the addition of more rose jointing will give the car a much more focussed feel and certainly remove any extraneous slop.
Looks like a great package to me and I'm pretty sure you can bank that time difference.
I suspect the car will get great reviews particularly if looked at through the lens of a genuinely track able road car built by the GT team with improvements made across the board.
Also the improvement from N0 to N1 tires can be accounted for 2-4 seconds.
Something that might also make quite a difference is if the 718 would be able to have more camber with the stock components than the 981.
This could be easily changed with some minor mods on the 981 and made a huge difference on laptimes.
07-11-2019, 08:33 PM
#8144
07-11-2019, 08:45 PM
#8145
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Hi, I'm doing 500+ rounds of Nordschleife a year. The resurfacing of the track in the last winter has not only provided grippier tarmac but smoothed out some severe bumbs in neuralgic parts of the track. This increased laptimes especialy in the wet but even in the dry laptimes gain surely 3-6 seconds.
Also the improvement from N0 to N1 tires can be accounted for 2-4 seconds.
Something that might also make quite a difference is if the 718 would be able to have more camber with the stock components than the 981.
This could be easily changed with some minor mods on the 981 and made a huge difference on laptimes.
Also the improvement from N0 to N1 tires can be accounted for 2-4 seconds.
Something that might also make quite a difference is if the 718 would be able to have more camber with the stock components than the 981.
This could be easily changed with some minor mods on the 981 and made a huge difference on laptimes.