718 GT4?
#8116
Three Wheelin'
Consider (a) 718 GT4 nring lap time is faster then the 991.1 GT3 (b) the 991.1 GT3 has more power, better gearing/pdk, more capable suspension, similar aero and weight, (c) additional factors external to the car like tires and track changes must be considered to account for the entirety of the improved nurburgring lap time.
#8117
Addict
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#8119
#8120
#8121
#8122
#8123
That's a very logical way to look at it...but..for the vast majority of people they never take this into consideration and only assimilate that the car is more expensive and by a large margin compared to other PAG products when they get upgraded.
#8124
Banned
Porsche (and every major company) does a lot of market/pricing research. The MSRP is limited to the upside only to the level that Porsche thinks it can get in each particular market. Dieselgate and production costs in general only enter this equation as the lower limit below which the business becomes unprofitable, which for Porsche has almost never been a problem. Suggesting that Porsche has raised prices to cover for some increased costs (Dieselgate) implies that Porsche had previously left money on the table -- profits they could have made but they didn't out of the goodness of their hearts. That never happens in a successful business.
#8125
I think people are trying to say a + b does not equal c. A + b + new tires + nring changes = c. We can debate how much the last two impact the time difference but you keep trying to dismiss them and attribute all the time gained to aero and power.
Consider (a) 718 GT4 nring lap time is faster then the 991.1 GT3 (b) the 991.1 GT3 has more power, better gearing/pdk, more capable suspension, similar aero and weight, (c) additional factors external to the car like tires and track changes must be considered to account for the entirety of the improved nurburgring lap time.
Consider (a) 718 GT4 nring lap time is faster then the 991.1 GT3 (b) the 991.1 GT3 has more power, better gearing/pdk, more capable suspension, similar aero and weight, (c) additional factors external to the car like tires and track changes must be considered to account for the entirety of the improved nurburgring lap time.
The facts remain the same a 12 second improvement is significant and to attempt to flippantly dismiss it on the basis of track improvements and tires is specious to say the least.
The improvements to the car as reported are clear and obvious and not in dispute. The changes have been made and the resultant time accordingly reported.
I dont think the GT dept. has ever made an evolution slower than the model it's evolved from. Whether that's meaningful to you is something only you can decide.
To try and dismiss the time reported by Porsche through other means could equally apply to other cars in their line up. Yet no one is really doing this whether they be other manufacturers or journos.
Most simply see them for what they are - improvements made by professionals that know what they are doing to a vehicle to improve it in the round as is typical for the GT division.
The only people seemingly complaining are 981 owners which is a shame - GT cars are about seeing the wood for the trees.
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008 (07-11-2019)
#8126
Addict
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It's logical, but not comforting. If we consider the rate of inflation, the price of the GT4 is increasing at more than double that rate. In a short time, many more people will be unable to afford such as car, as their buying power shrinks relative to the price of the car.
#8127
I'm not dismissing anything merely pointing out the obvious (a) there is no known substantive improvement in tires between N0 and N1 in the dry at least based on a lot of experience and data logging under competition conditions and (b) there are some improvements to the track but not wholesale and the track surface has always evolved as a poor section is refurbished another part degrades.
The facts remain the same a 12 second improvement is significant and to attempt to flippantly dismiss it on the basis of track improvements and tires is specious to say the least.
The improvements to the car as reported are clear and obvious and not in dispute. The changes have been made and the resultant time accordingly reported.
I dont think the GT dept. has ever made an evolution slower than the model it's evolved from. Whether that's meaningful to you is something only you can decide.
To try and dismiss the time reported by Porsche through other means could equally apply to other cars in their line up. Yet no one is really doing this whether they be other manufacturers or journos.
Most simply see them for what they are - improvements made by professionals that know what they are doing to a vehicle to improve it in the round as is typical for the GT division.
The only people seemingly complaining are 981 owners which is a shame - GT cars are about seeing the wood for the trees.
The facts remain the same a 12 second improvement is significant and to attempt to flippantly dismiss it on the basis of track improvements and tires is specious to say the least.
The improvements to the car as reported are clear and obvious and not in dispute. The changes have been made and the resultant time accordingly reported.
I dont think the GT dept. has ever made an evolution slower than the model it's evolved from. Whether that's meaningful to you is something only you can decide.
To try and dismiss the time reported by Porsche through other means could equally apply to other cars in their line up. Yet no one is really doing this whether they be other manufacturers or journos.
Most simply see them for what they are - improvements made by professionals that know what they are doing to a vehicle to improve it in the round as is typical for the GT division.
The only people seemingly complaining are 981 owners which is a shame - GT cars are about seeing the wood for the trees.
#8128
You may not be far off ha. https://www.autoblog.com/2019/07/11/...-auto-tariffs/
I for one wouldn't buy a GT4 with tarriffs and would hold out as long as possible to see if they drop off. The way they have worked thus far, you could buy an item one day and pay 25% extra and the same item the next day and pay less. I see this even at Costco with the aluminum tarriffs. One month my soda cost $1 more than the next month. I'm sure porsche will try to import as many cars as possible before they hit but it doesn't bode well.
100% agree with Grant and hf1 here. It's very interesting. Porsche of course charges what they need to make a profit of x. A "new" motor is a lot different than a motor at the tail end of production in terms of costs. I bet a lot of the price difference is to recoup this cost and the costs will be amortized for whatever other car the motor is used. They will get the benefit of an inflation level increase since Porsche recouped some or all of their r&d by charging more for the GT4.
991.1 GT3 ran a ~7:26 if I recall. But a 2 second slower lap with all of the items you mentioned that advantage the GT3 is eye opening. Then again, who knows how much all of the improvements added up. On paper, the 991.2 shouldn't be 12 seconds faster than a 991.1. How much of that 12 seconds is the actual track and tire improvements? Who knows.
I for one wouldn't buy a GT4 with tarriffs and would hold out as long as possible to see if they drop off. The way they have worked thus far, you could buy an item one day and pay 25% extra and the same item the next day and pay less. I see this even at Costco with the aluminum tarriffs. One month my soda cost $1 more than the next month. I'm sure porsche will try to import as many cars as possible before they hit but it doesn't bode well.
Porsche (and every major company) does a lot of market/pricing research. The MSRP is limited to the upside only to the level that Porsche thinks it can get in each particular market. Dieselgate and production costs in general only enter this equation as the lower limit below which the business becomes unprofitable, which for Porsche has almost never been a problem. Suggesting that Porsche has raised prices to cover for some increased costs (Dieselgate) implies that Porsche had previously left money on the table -- profits they could have made but they didn't out of the goodness of their hearts. That never happens in a successful business.
It's logical, but not comforting. If we consider the rate of inflation, the price of the GT4 is increasing at more than double that rate. In a short time, many more people will be unable to afford such as car, as their buying power shrinks relative to the price of the car.
I think people are trying to say a + b does not equal c. A + b + new tires + nring changes = c. We can debate how much the last two impact the time difference but you keep trying to dismiss them and attribute all the time gained to aero and power.
Consider (a) 718 GT4 nring lap time is faster then the 991.1 GT3 (b) the 991.1 GT3 has more power, better gearing/pdk, more capable suspension, similar aero and weight, (c) additional factors external to the car like tires and track changes must be considered to account for the entirety of the improved nurburgring lap time.
Consider (a) 718 GT4 nring lap time is faster then the 991.1 GT3 (b) the 991.1 GT3 has more power, better gearing/pdk, more capable suspension, similar aero and weight, (c) additional factors external to the car like tires and track changes must be considered to account for the entirety of the improved nurburgring lap time.
#8129
Quit Smokin'
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
The facts remain the same a 12 second improvement is significant and to attempt to flippantly dismiss it on the basis of track improvements and tires is specious to say the least.
The improvements to the car as reported are clear and obvious and not in dispute. The changes have been made and the resultant time accordingly reported.
I dont think the GT dept. has ever made an evolution slower than the model it's evolved from. Whether that's meaningful to you is something only you can decide.
Most simply see them for what they are - improvements made by professionals that know what they are doing to a vehicle to improve it in the round as is typical for the GT division.
The only people seemingly complaining are 981 owners which is a shame.
The improvements to the car as reported are clear and obvious and not in dispute. The changes have been made and the resultant time accordingly reported.
I dont think the GT dept. has ever made an evolution slower than the model it's evolved from. Whether that's meaningful to you is something only you can decide.
Most simply see them for what they are - improvements made by professionals that know what they are doing to a vehicle to improve it in the round as is typical for the GT division.
The only people seemingly complaining are 981 owners which is a shame.
#8130
In terms of the pricing debate I wonder how much it cost Porsche to replace a large number of transmissions in the 981 cars. Given they are putting in a brand new (well engineered but untested) engine, they baked in some additional insurance into the MSRP anticipating the probability of possible recalls on a new power train.