Rennlister on Motortrend (gt4 vs 718s)
09-13-2017, 06:31 AM
#17
Racer
And this whole PDK is almost the same as manual debate... yeah.
I was invited to a Porsche event at FSZ1 (Nurburgring) to promote and allow test runs of the 718S. Sure enough I was the only GT4 there, and sure enough the culminating stage was a ROC type race. And sure enough they set me up. They exploited the GT4 weakness to perfection. So much so that my first two rounds against a manual I could coast... due to the other drivers not being able to cope with the row down and brake points. As I pointed out to the group, I would get murdered by the first PDK with a decent driver. Call me Nostradamus.
They had set the length exactly 30 meters from 1st gear top out. So you could stay and coast, loose time, or upset your entry by rowing and then increasing the error rate.. Meanwhile the PDK was hitting third gear and you could just paddle down mid corner.
Nobody mentions error rates in manual vs. PDK. And that's what costs in the end during short events.
I was invited to a Porsche event at FSZ1 (Nurburgring) to promote and allow test runs of the 718S. Sure enough I was the only GT4 there, and sure enough the culminating stage was a ROC type race. And sure enough they set me up. They exploited the GT4 weakness to perfection. So much so that my first two rounds against a manual I could coast... due to the other drivers not being able to cope with the row down and brake points. As I pointed out to the group, I would get murdered by the first PDK with a decent driver. Call me Nostradamus.
They had set the length exactly 30 meters from 1st gear top out. So you could stay and coast, loose time, or upset your entry by rowing and then increasing the error rate.. Meanwhile the PDK was hitting third gear and you could just paddle down mid corner.
Nobody mentions error rates in manual vs. PDK. And that's what costs in the end during short events.
09-13-2017, 10:26 AM
#18
Nordschleife Master
^ that just means you need to learn how to drive better. Yes, Pdk helps if you are learning how to drive. Pdk helps if you struggle with a manual. I'm not disputing that. However, if the driver knows what they are doing, the difference is negligible. Look at the graph I posted and tell me which one is pdk and why. Can you do it?
09-13-2017, 10:46 AM
#19
Racer
^ that just means you need to learn how to drive better. Yes, Pdk helps if you are learning how to drive. Pdk helps if you struggle with a manual. I'm not disputing that. However, if the driver knows what they are doing, the difference is negligible. Look at the graph I posted and tell me which one is pdk and why. Can you do it?
No, did you even read what I said? It's the gearing. You either loose time or you run a higher risk of upsetting the car (one side was dry, other was wet). This was not an open track where you have time to judge, and certainly not one "best of" run pulled from many. It was three rounds, with cones moved every round, about 1 meter wiggle room. You touch and your out. As for your graph, place 5 (back to back) laps overlay of both, then i'll tell you, as thats what matters. Nobody here that I know is drag racing or gives a crap about one single lap pulled from many. The error rate increases and thats what costs you time... I drove a couple seasons GLP (amongst other track/race related years) Pretty sure I have the shifting thing down...but it sounds like you need to come here and show us how its done.
You must be the best!
09-13-2017, 11:05 AM
#20
Three Wheelin'
I agree with Joe but I think there are tracks with corner sequences where it can be up to .5s over a lap... even with good driving.
especially where you get to the rev limiter before braking for a corner sequence.
Entering Sebring 4a comes to mind where I hit 117 or so in 3rd... but have to shift to 2nd to get through 4a/b and 5
in GTB1 pdk will cause you to carry 100lbs of extra weight which I think is also about .5s on a lap
especially where you get to the rev limiter before braking for a corner sequence.
Entering Sebring 4a comes to mind where I hit 117 or so in 3rd... but have to shift to 2nd to get through 4a/b and 5
in GTB1 pdk will cause you to carry 100lbs of extra weight which I think is also about .5s on a lap
09-13-2017, 11:56 AM
#21
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by Viperguy324
No, did you even read what I said? It's the gearing. You either loose time or you run a higher risk of upsetting the car (one side was dry, other was wet). This was not an open track where you have time to judge, and certainly not one "best of" run pulled from many. It was three rounds, with cones moved every round, about 1 meter wiggle room. You touch and your out. As for your graph, place 5 (back to back) laps overlay of both, then i'll tell you, as thats what matters. Nobody here that I know is drag racing or gives a crap about one single lap pulled from many. The error rate increases and thats what costs you time... I drove a couple seasons GLP (amongst other track/race related years) Pretty sure I have the shifting thing down...but it sounds like you need to come here and show us how its done.
You must be the best!
You must be the best!
Trust me, I'm not the best. Far from it, in fact. I'm about a second off pace of multiple record holding pro drivers, which is a lot. If someone thinks one second is not a lot, that is part of the disconnect.
I'm not disputing that pdk will be more consistent over many laps, but we are talking about the motor trend test here. While the consistency may be enough to win a long race, it's not a big enough difference to call the motortrend test foul.
I can give you the data you want, but it won't help either of us because consecutive laps means running into traffic, which is a variable I can't control for in a DE. I'm happy to produce multiple identical consecutive laps or consecutive laps within 0.1 seconds of each other in a manual GT4, though.
09-13-2017, 12:39 PM
#22
Racer
You can't figure it out, eh? There is a reason.
Trust me, I'm not the best. Far from it, in fact. I'm about a second off pace of multiple record holding pro drivers, which is a lot. If someone thinks one second is not a lot, that is part of the disconnect.
I'm not disputing that pdk will be more consistent over many laps, but we are talking about the motor trend test here. While the consistency may be enough to win a long race, it's not a big enough difference to call the motortrend test foul.
I can give you the data you want, but it won't help either of us because consecutive laps means running into traffic, which is a variable I can't control for in a DE. I'm happy to produce multiple identical consecutive laps or consecutive laps within 0.1 seconds of each other in a manual GT4, though.
Trust me, I'm not the best. Far from it, in fact. I'm about a second off pace of multiple record holding pro drivers, which is a lot. If someone thinks one second is not a lot, that is part of the disconnect.
I'm not disputing that pdk will be more consistent over many laps, but we are talking about the motor trend test here. While the consistency may be enough to win a long race, it's not a big enough difference to call the motortrend test foul.
I can give you the data you want, but it won't help either of us because consecutive laps means running into traffic, which is a variable I can't control for in a DE. I'm happy to produce multiple identical consecutive laps or consecutive laps within 0.1 seconds of each other in a manual GT4, though.
What am I supposed to be figuring out with a speed map? I'm talking stock GT4 vs. Stock 718S PDK... From short A to B Like 200 meters, (2) 90 degree left turns then C to D and repeat for 3 rounds. It is a drag race that requires almost constant rowing... hence greater upset and error rates. PDK also stays in the power due to GEARING aka it's quicker.
As for seconds counting.. look up GLP. I have run laps within a second...
09-13-2017, 01:32 PM
#23
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by Viperguy324
What am I supposed to be figuring out with a speed map? I'm talking stock GT4 vs. Stock 718S PDK... From short A to B Like 200 meters, (2) 90 degree left turns then C to D and repeat for 3 rounds. It is a drag race that requires almost constant rowing... hence greater upset and error rates. PDK also stays in the power due to GEARING aka it's quicker.
As for seconds counting.. look up GLP. I have run laps within a second...
As for seconds counting.. look up GLP. I have run laps within a second...
If there is a gearing advantage, you should see it in the graph. Do you?
09-13-2017, 01:40 PM
#24
Racer
I do not see RPMs in your graph. So it would appear the gearing is similar. What does a speed graph prove in this debate? Shift duration is hardly going to be seen here. And since your speeds vary from turn to turn and vise versa... your graph is pretty pointless.
Big discrepancy? Did you look it up? I've been within tenths... I think my worst was 3 seconds, wet.. due traffic.
09-13-2017, 01:55 PM
#25
Rennlist Member
^ that just means you need to learn how to drive better. Yes, Pdk helps if you are learning how to drive. Pdk helps if you struggle with a manual. I'm not disputing that. However, if the driver knows what they are doing, the difference is negligible. Look at the graph I posted and tell me which one is pdk and why. Can you do it?
Joe, when you're up and running with the .2 GT3, and find someone else with a similarly spec'd .2 GT3 PDK, please give me a shout. I feel an interesting analysis coming on...and wonder how we might up the ante with some 000 resources.
09-13-2017, 02:17 PM
#26
Nordschleife Master
Originally Posted by stout
There is even a video out there that shows two very similar Caymans or Boxsters with and without PDK and the manual is quicker around the short course, most likely due to its weight advantage, and at the very back of the car. It wasn't a perfect comparison (they just about never are…), but it was interesting. I think PDK does add an advantage (however large or small) on certain circuits and with certain drivers who gain something from one less thing to concentrate on, and that advantage only grows over time and laps—the more time and laps, the clearer that advantage will become. But if I was spec'ing a .2 GT3, it would be MT if it was going to see any street use.
Joe, when you're up and running with the .2 GT3, and find someone else with a similarly spec'd .2 GT3 PDK, please give me a shout. I feel an interesting analysis coming on...and wonder how we might up the ante with some 000 resources.
Joe, when you're up and running with the .2 GT3, and find someone else with a similarly spec'd .2 GT3 PDK, please give me a shout. I feel an interesting analysis coming on...and wonder how we might up the ante with some 000 resources.
09-13-2017, 02:42 PM
#27
Burning Brakes
but i guess it's all relative.
1 second difference can just be 1-2 botched (slightly) corners, circuit distance notwithstanding.
09-14-2017, 09:59 AM
#28
GT4 can handle 6 x 20 minute hard track sessions in 40+ degree, 104+ fahrenheit temps, and has big brakes to last all day, its built for the track, other then 3rd gear the ****er is indestructible 
09-14-2017, 02:53 PM
#29
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OMG, not this again. It's like the people who say PCCB is a must for track junkies. Drives me nuts.
People, PDK is only MARGINALLY faster than a manual if someone knows what the hell they are doing. Pobst qualifies as someone who knows what he is doing. On a short course like that, it's only going to be .1 or maybe .2 seconds at the very most. Before anyone starts spewing a bunch of BS about how it is 1-2 seconds faster, please spare me. 1-2 seconds is an eternity. You are nuts if you think PDK gives you that. If it does, it means you need to work on your driving skills.
The difference between the 2 transmissions is marginal. I get sadistic joy out of proving people wrong, which is why I'm going with a manual GT3. I'm going to set times at all the norcal tracks, and we're going to see how many PDK drivers can meet or beat it. Prediction: even if the driver is known to be faster than me, it will be less than a second.
In the meantime, let's play a game. Here is a graph of speed data from a track in norcal 3 years ago. Same exact car (boxster spyder). Same tires. Same day, so identical conditions. One is a manual and one is a PDK. The section shown covers 1.6 miles and 1 minute 6 seconds. The time differential between the 2 cars in the graph shown is 0.1 seconds. Can you tell me which color is PDK and which one is manual? It should be easy to spot if the difference is as big as some people say.
The real problem with the MotorTrend comparison is that the cars were not on equal TIRES. Based on what I know, if the 718S were on the same tires, the times would have been nearly identical.
People, PDK is only MARGINALLY faster than a manual if someone knows what the hell they are doing. Pobst qualifies as someone who knows what he is doing. On a short course like that, it's only going to be .1 or maybe .2 seconds at the very most. Before anyone starts spewing a bunch of BS about how it is 1-2 seconds faster, please spare me. 1-2 seconds is an eternity. You are nuts if you think PDK gives you that. If it does, it means you need to work on your driving skills.
The difference between the 2 transmissions is marginal. I get sadistic joy out of proving people wrong, which is why I'm going with a manual GT3. I'm going to set times at all the norcal tracks, and we're going to see how many PDK drivers can meet or beat it. Prediction: even if the driver is known to be faster than me, it will be less than a second.
In the meantime, let's play a game. Here is a graph of speed data from a track in norcal 3 years ago. Same exact car (boxster spyder). Same tires. Same day, so identical conditions. One is a manual and one is a PDK. The section shown covers 1.6 miles and 1 minute 6 seconds. The time differential between the 2 cars in the graph shown is 0.1 seconds. Can you tell me which color is PDK and which one is manual? It should be easy to spot if the difference is as big as some people say.
The real problem with the MotorTrend comparison is that the cars were not on equal TIRES. Based on what I know, if the 718S were on the same tires, the times would have been nearly identical.
I work with data weekly but I can't identify which is which for a lack of knowledge of the gear ratios (lazy to look it up haha) and some inconsistencies mainly from wheelspin/letting off early. Regardless of which is faster, driving technique is way more important than the difference gearbox. It's only when everyone is at that same level/laptime and you need that tiny bit to edge out the competition, the PDK/ manual will become a factor. But, most driver's here aren't racing and even if you were, you'd be running the same gearbox for a spec race. So, just have fun with your choice!
09-14-2017, 03:27 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
