Dundon GT4/Spyder Race Header Group Buy
#316
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I'm picking it up tomorrow around noon. I'll post my thoughts later in the day.
#317
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So I'll take that as a no......
I understand your position about being a newcomer and protecting your IP, but I could have just signed up and purchased a set and did the tests without your consent or blessing.
I will say I'm on sceptable side of things here but I welcome your efforts and would champion your work if they did produce the power you claim.
We have the same equipment, dyno, testers, COBB pro tuner software and I have dynoed just about every header made on the GT4. I am not on these forums bashing or knocking down anybody's claims and just want to verify that these do make that kind of power then I will send every one of my customers for a set.
So if you won't loan a set for a few days, then this is my official order for a set that I will use on my personal car.
I'm really just trying to help and support your efforts, I hope you can see that as well.
Thanks for listening
Rick DeMan
I understand your position about being a newcomer and protecting your IP, but I could have just signed up and purchased a set and did the tests without your consent or blessing.
I will say I'm on sceptable side of things here but I welcome your efforts and would champion your work if they did produce the power you claim.
We have the same equipment, dyno, testers, COBB pro tuner software and I have dynoed just about every header made on the GT4. I am not on these forums bashing or knocking down anybody's claims and just want to verify that these do make that kind of power then I will send every one of my customers for a set.
So if you won't loan a set for a few days, then this is my official order for a set that I will use on my personal car.
I'm really just trying to help and support your efforts, I hope you can see that as well.
Thanks for listening
Rick DeMan
Wasn't saying no, please don't take it the wrong way...
Was saying that we've been challenged by everyone and it does get exhausting trying to not get defensive.
I appreciate you putting your money where your skepticism is, you're rare in this industry, most push for a crazy discount or free...
We're excited for you to test them. It will be a little while before we can ship as we have to finish the catted system and get the 2nd batch built. We truly are a small shop, 5 guys, and 3 do service, It's Charles doing development and initial fabrication and Solomon doing the production welding along with Charles, with Charles and I doing the tuning. (you can see Charles is a pretty busy dude, hence your stuck with me on the forum).
We have you down for a set from the next batch and look forward to your feedback.
I'll be making a call shortly, even though it's a bit late in NY.
Sorry if the post came out strong, it wasn't intended directly at you or DeMan Motorsports, but the nature of this industry with so many making claims that have never been backed up, and us posting everything and folks still assuming we're like everyone else is a bit frustrating...
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Dundon Motorsports
Gig Harbor, WA
253-200-4454
jamie@dundonmotorsports.com
www.dundonmotorsports.com
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Dundon Motorsports
Gig Harbor, WA
253-200-4454
jamie@dundonmotorsports.com
www.dundonmotorsports.com
Facebook.com/dundonmotorsports
Instagram @dundon_motorsports
#319
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So I'll take that as a no......
I understand your position about being a newcomer and protecting your IP, but I could have just signed up and purchased a set and did the tests without your consent or blessing.
I will say I'm on sceptable side of things here but I welcome your efforts and would champion your work if they did produce the power you claim.
We have the same equipment, dyno, testers, COBB pro tuner software and I have dynoed just about every header made on the GT4. I am not on these forums bashing or knocking down anybody's claims and just want to verify that these do make that kind of power then I will send every one of my customers for a set.
So if you won't loan a set for a few days, then this is my official order for a set that I will use on my personal car.
I'm really just trying to help and support your efforts, I hope you can see that as well.
Thanks for listening
Rick DeMan
I understand your position about being a newcomer and protecting your IP, but I could have just signed up and purchased a set and did the tests without your consent or blessing.
I will say I'm on sceptable side of things here but I welcome your efforts and would champion your work if they did produce the power you claim.
We have the same equipment, dyno, testers, COBB pro tuner software and I have dynoed just about every header made on the GT4. I am not on these forums bashing or knocking down anybody's claims and just want to verify that these do make that kind of power then I will send every one of my customers for a set.
So if you won't loan a set for a few days, then this is my official order for a set that I will use on my personal car.
I'm really just trying to help and support your efforts, I hope you can see that as well.
Thanks for listening
Rick DeMan
#320
Rennlist Member
Sorry Pete, have to really disagree here...
This is not the right way to do a scientific comparison of products to understand the difference. In a roll race can you tell if the car that lost, lost due to losing traction, or the traction control intervening, or was it just not as powerful?. Too many variables, driver, tires, tire air pressure, driver skill, conditions, traction, suspension setup, reaction times etc...
This is not the right way to do a scientific comparison of products to understand the difference. In a roll race can you tell if the car that lost, lost due to losing traction, or the traction control intervening, or was it just not as powerful?. Too many variables, driver, tires, tire air pressure, driver skill, conditions, traction, suspension setup, reaction times etc...
In my experience, there are quite a few variables with dyno tests, as well. One editor I know tried to do the end-all, be-all exhaust test for a magazine and it turned out to be a nightmare due to heat sink, pressure changes during the day, etc. etc. In the end, the power differences were pretty small, the results were contested due to time of day (for instance), and a lot of tuners were unhappy.
The nice thing about a long enough closed-track straightaway—or a drag strip—is that the two cars share the same pavement, air, fuel (if you plan ahead), etc. And there are ways to deal with driver error.
A dyno is a repeatable scientific tuning tool, when used correctly it is very precise. Many companies incorrectly use them as marketing tools and don't use air temperature correction or intentionally have them calibrated to read higher. Even then a before and after on the same dyno is normally enough to show the relative change.
We have provided this data over and over and over and it becomes exhausting trying to illustrate that a dyno chart is a repeatable, unbiased and scientific method of demonstrating power gains... This is why we've looked for others to publish them, and rarely find them. And why we have published all of ours for public scrutiny...
Thing here is, you've kind of fixed a target on your back by claiming 438.8 hp from a set of headers when it took Porsche AG a new set of heads, new cams, a new intake plenum, a new exhaust system, and a tune to get from 400 hp to 430 hp on the same engine in a 991S. If you've done it, you will gain tremendous respect from a lot of upstanding people in this community—especially if those gains can be repeated or neared with catalysts in place. But you have to understand that the Porsche community is just that, a community. We care about our own, and don't like to see friends get taken for thousands of dollars. Years ago, I conducted a dyno test that showed an intake claiming 30~hp gains actually lost power. It was a bitter pill to swallow for the tuner, but it did right by its customers who had shelled out for the product—and today is one of the more respected U.S. tuners. I also put a twin-turbo 986S claiming "GT2 levels of power" on the dyno, and man was that a long day to find it made about as much power as a 996-2 Carrera—after several hours of tweaking and shimming the waste gates. It sure was a pretty kit, though, and one with some very innovative ideas.
I've found this community is tight knit yet has a very open mind, and open ears too. Again, we want to see you succeed, and bring something cool to the party. You've already got two respected colleagues offering a hand to you, and I take their offers as offers in good faith. If I was a little further along, or was still at Excellence or Panorama, I would look at setting up a three- or four-way comparison test. Not sure which way I would go with that test—there is a "non-Porsche" dyno I like to use—but it would probably include both a dyno test and a rolling acceleration test. It would not be inexpensive to do it right, or even "right." Fortunately, I'm far from the only media game in town...
Last edited by stout; 12-10-2016 at 01:45 AM.
#321
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Open invitation to anybody who has ordered a set of these headers.
We will dyno before install, install headers and re-dyno test after with printed results for FREE!
We are in the NY metro area. Feel free to call me directly to arrange.
Thanks in advance!!
We will dyno before install, install headers and re-dyno test after with printed results for FREE!
We are in the NY metro area. Feel free to call me directly to arrange.
Thanks in advance!!
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2016 GT4-R
Rick DeMan
DeMan Motorsport
Upper Nyack, NY
845 727 3070
Porsche Sales & Service
Porsche Race services and parts
www.DeManMotorsport.com
2016 GT4-R
Rick DeMan
DeMan Motorsport
Upper Nyack, NY
845 727 3070
Porsche Sales & Service
Porsche Race services and parts
www.DeManMotorsport.com
#322
#323
I am in San Diego. Have no affiliation besides buying the DMS headers. Would be open to doing a back to back test at a local dyno with any other comparanble products. Both before tune applied and after.
We're flattered and humbled that more of the established shops are interested in our products. We certainly have no problem with folks independently testing our products. We expect it and encourage it.
HOWEVER ...(sorry, here comes a little rant) ... where we tend get a little puckered is when competitors, importers, and partners of large competitors say they want to run our products for "independent dyno verification." If that is truly all it ever was we welcome that ... however, the history in this industry says that is not always the case. Please bare with me in this as I generally believe only the paranoid survive, and as a small shop just getting started, we have to remain a little paranoid because we have created a design that the industry has never seen before and it is this design that is giving us these tremendous results. When larger, more established companies ask to run our products to help "demonstrate that the gains we achieved are real" it can mean multiple things. We're hopeful this means the requester is looking to add our products to their lineup in order to provide a competitive advantage to their customers' racing endeavors, but the devil on my shoulder, as well as what I have seen through the years in this industry, is that their request to "test" a set comes laden with other non-spoken objectives. And it is these unspoken objectives that cause us the angst.
Further, no other company we can find, on Rennlist or elsewhere, has provided even a fraction of the data and testing results for their products that we have provided on our from day one. In some cases dyno charts are nowhere to be found. It seems that simply because they are established and recognized companies all they have to do is make a claim of XXhp and everyone just accepts it and comes running. We have yet to see the level of scrutiny for our competitions products that have been applied to our.
It kind of feels as if the only ones being asked to "prove it" is us...and we have "proven it" all along the way with all the real data and results for the world to read at their leisure.
Okay ... Rant Over
I know everyone is excited to see that what we have shown is "real." And soon you will as right now 20 systems are in the process of shipping throughout the USA. Any of these owners can (and likely will) test the systems and report back, We are hopeful they do.
I think the best course of action until we have more systems to sell is for shops looking to test our product is to contact one of the current owners and offer them an install and "before and after" dyno data at a discount? I'm sure owners would be interested in that!
HOWEVER ...(sorry, here comes a little rant) ... where we tend get a little puckered is when competitors, importers, and partners of large competitors say they want to run our products for "independent dyno verification." If that is truly all it ever was we welcome that ... however, the history in this industry says that is not always the case. Please bare with me in this as I generally believe only the paranoid survive, and as a small shop just getting started, we have to remain a little paranoid because we have created a design that the industry has never seen before and it is this design that is giving us these tremendous results. When larger, more established companies ask to run our products to help "demonstrate that the gains we achieved are real" it can mean multiple things. We're hopeful this means the requester is looking to add our products to their lineup in order to provide a competitive advantage to their customers' racing endeavors, but the devil on my shoulder, as well as what I have seen through the years in this industry, is that their request to "test" a set comes laden with other non-spoken objectives. And it is these unspoken objectives that cause us the angst.
Further, no other company we can find, on Rennlist or elsewhere, has provided even a fraction of the data and testing results for their products that we have provided on our from day one. In some cases dyno charts are nowhere to be found. It seems that simply because they are established and recognized companies all they have to do is make a claim of XXhp and everyone just accepts it and comes running. We have yet to see the level of scrutiny for our competitions products that have been applied to our.
It kind of feels as if the only ones being asked to "prove it" is us...and we have "proven it" all along the way with all the real data and results for the world to read at their leisure.
Okay ... Rant Over
I know everyone is excited to see that what we have shown is "real." And soon you will as right now 20 systems are in the process of shipping throughout the USA. Any of these owners can (and likely will) test the systems and report back, We are hopeful they do.
I think the best course of action until we have more systems to sell is for shops looking to test our product is to contact one of the current owners and offer them an install and "before and after" dyno data at a discount? I'm sure owners would be interested in that!
#324
As a manufacturer I can totally agree and sympathize with Dundon, the amount of unpaid work and stress running your own business producing products that are quite literally an extension of you is extremely under appreciated and wanting to protect you IP is smart.
I am also very happy to have received mine 😀 Probably the only set of these unicorns in the Southern Hemisphere lol.
Gotta say I wish my welders could tig weld like yours👍
Hopefully I'll have these on before xmas 😝
I am also very happy to have received mine 😀 Probably the only set of these unicorns in the Southern Hemisphere lol.
Gotta say I wish my welders could tig weld like yours👍
Hopefully I'll have these on before xmas 😝
Last edited by O5C4R; 12-10-2016 at 04:24 AM.
#325
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OP - In earlier posts you describe how your race header depends on the OEM GT4 exhaust to make maximum power because that's what you used to optimize the header design. When you offer your catted system, I'm assuming you will be providing a cat-back design and the OEM system will be removed?
#326
Rennlist Member
Like O5C4R, my sympathies go out to DMS.
The questioning with implication that there must be something nefarious going on with their dynamometer tests, call for the burden of enforcing after sale track only use, etcetera, must be fatiguing.
Please visit other model forum threads for end user tests that have verified those of DMS.
Just because a business makes itself available in a forum doesn’t give carte blanche for every inane question under the Sun, and don’t expect a free header design education.
Many of the questions asked here have already been answered elsewhere or even in this thread, do your homework.
Please let DMS develop their products and get them out the door to those of us who appreciate their hard work.
The questioning with implication that there must be something nefarious going on with their dynamometer tests, call for the burden of enforcing after sale track only use, etcetera, must be fatiguing.
Please visit other model forum threads for end user tests that have verified those of DMS.
Just because a business makes itself available in a forum doesn’t give carte blanche for every inane question under the Sun, and don’t expect a free header design education.
Many of the questions asked here have already been answered elsewhere or even in this thread, do your homework.
Please let DMS develop their products and get them out the door to those of us who appreciate their hard work.
#327
Rennlist Member
I can't keep my mouth shut any longer.
^Sorry bud if you are a vendor and make claims and are selling a product based on those claims, those claims absolutely are subject to critique and evaluation. When you buy headers you get or expect: looks good, sounds good, reliability, some performance gains.
Would you praise Johnson and Johnson for the "hard work" of developing a drug that does nothing (for anyone)? And was never trialed and was never peer reviewed?
And let's face it, header design is not a black art. It's well understood.
Those claims need to stand up to critique, peer review, and in the world of cars... the peanut gallery.
Offer:
Anyone that has purchased these headers in SoCal I will be happy to organize a free evaluation of the pre and post performance gains. We can use my aim and some 3rd gear pulls, we can use the shop dyno, etc. I'll foot the bill. I am sure there are some gains. Color me skeptical they are anywhere near what's posted.
^Sorry bud if you are a vendor and make claims and are selling a product based on those claims, those claims absolutely are subject to critique and evaluation. When you buy headers you get or expect: looks good, sounds good, reliability, some performance gains.
Would you praise Johnson and Johnson for the "hard work" of developing a drug that does nothing (for anyone)? And was never trialed and was never peer reviewed?
And let's face it, header design is not a black art. It's well understood.
Those claims need to stand up to critique, peer review, and in the world of cars... the peanut gallery.
Offer:
Anyone that has purchased these headers in SoCal I will be happy to organize a free evaluation of the pre and post performance gains. We can use my aim and some 3rd gear pulls, we can use the shop dyno, etc. I'll foot the bill. I am sure there are some gains. Color me skeptical they are anywhere near what's posted.
Last edited by Spyerx; 12-10-2016 at 12:16 PM.
#328
Rennlist Member
Rick, I have a car here that has a set supposedly ordered, although we have waited over three months for them, which is incredibly frustrating.
I can run the car to the dyno to get a baseline on the BGB tune, swap headers and back to back it.
If they are as good as advertised I could probably sell five sets immediately. But with three months lead time I cant do that no matter what the margins are. In this business excessive down time or waiting time on parts is a deal breaker for me no matter how good the product is. Cars sitting in the shop means money isn't being collected.
Take this with a grain of salt as constructive criticism, but it is just my .02. Cannot sell product we can't get.
-T.O.
I can run the car to the dyno to get a baseline on the BGB tune, swap headers and back to back it.
If they are as good as advertised I could probably sell five sets immediately. But with three months lead time I cant do that no matter what the margins are. In this business excessive down time or waiting time on parts is a deal breaker for me no matter how good the product is. Cars sitting in the shop means money isn't being collected.
Take this with a grain of salt as constructive criticism, but it is just my .02. Cannot sell product we can't get.
-T.O.
Last edited by OlsenMotorsports; 12-10-2016 at 12:25 PM.
#329
Rennlist Member
Spyerx, I know you're active on the GT3 forum, did you find DMS cooking the books in any way when they developed those headers?
If not, why would you assume they are now doing so?
If not, why would you assume they are now doing so?
#330
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Rick, I have a car here that has a set supposedly ordered, although we have waited over three months for them, which is incredibly frustrating.
I can run the car to the dyno to get a baseline on the BGB tune, swap headers and back to back it.
If they are as good as advertised I could probably sell five sets immediately. But with three months lead time I cant do that no matter what the margins are. In this business excessive down time or waiting time on parts is a deal breaker for me no matter how good the product is. Cars sitting in the shop means money isn't being collected.
Take this with a grain of salt but it is just my .02
-T.O.
I can run the car to the dyno to get a baseline on the BGB tune, swap headers and back to back it.
If they are as good as advertised I could probably sell five sets immediately. But with three months lead time I cant do that no matter what the margins are. In this business excessive down time or waiting time on parts is a deal breaker for me no matter how good the product is. Cars sitting in the shop means money isn't being collected.
Take this with a grain of salt but it is just my .02
-T.O.
espeialy for those who keeps cars 3 week at a time
that's why i have so many **** to sell.
usually i would have sold the car 6 months before stuff i ordred show up.