What is so Special About these Cars?
07-18-2017, 05:55 PM
#31
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Car race results are entirely irrelevant to anyone who owns a car to enjoy driving in normal situations. Porsche has made some good cars, BMW has made some good cars, and so have some other manufacturers. This thread was started having nothing to do with wither or not Porsche makes good cars; they obviously do. The thread was about what a PITA it is to buy a good Porsche, as opposed to other makes.
And it is a huge PITA, and in my opinion, not rewarded in reality with what you get, in comparison to the extraordinary effort that has to be put out.
And it is a huge PITA, and in my opinion, not rewarded in reality with what you get, in comparison to the extraordinary effort that has to be put out.
07-20-2017, 08:07 AM
#32
Three Wheelin'
I'm convinced the OP's problems stem more from his abrasive personality than anything having to do with perceptions around the car or its associated community.
I'll agree that there are certain stereotypes that could easily apply to a variety of automotive communities. I'm no psychologist but this likely has to do with how our minds associate significant bias for things we know and are comfortable with, and couple that with the prestige the brand is known for and you get a tendency for haughtiness.
But don't try to pretend this doesn't exist for BMW, ESPECIALLY for M cars.
Obviously these stereotypes don't apply to everyone so my conclusion is you just got a few bad examples in your limited sample set.
And as a current owner of an M4 in the market for a 911, my take on what's "special" about the 911 (and Cayman/boxster for that matter) is that it is purpose-built from the ground up as a sports car. The same can't be said for BMW, even the M series... and certainly not for any number of other cars out there save perhaps the S2000 and to a lesser extent the Miata- but those cars suffer from more budget constraint than Porsche.
It really does put Porsche in a league of their own.
I'll agree that there are certain stereotypes that could easily apply to a variety of automotive communities. I'm no psychologist but this likely has to do with how our minds associate significant bias for things we know and are comfortable with, and couple that with the prestige the brand is known for and you get a tendency for haughtiness.
But don't try to pretend this doesn't exist for BMW, ESPECIALLY for M cars.
Obviously these stereotypes don't apply to everyone so my conclusion is you just got a few bad examples in your limited sample set.
And as a current owner of an M4 in the market for a 911, my take on what's "special" about the 911 (and Cayman/boxster for that matter) is that it is purpose-built from the ground up as a sports car. The same can't be said for BMW, even the M series... and certainly not for any number of other cars out there save perhaps the S2000 and to a lesser extent the Miata- but those cars suffer from more budget constraint than Porsche.
It really does put Porsche in a league of their own.
07-20-2017, 10:36 PM
#33
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Thread Starter
I'm convinced the OP's problems stem more from his abrasive personality than anything having to do with perceptions around the car or its associated community.
I'll agree that there are certain stereotypes that could easily apply to a variety of automotive communities. I'm no psychologist but this likely has to do with how our minds associate significant bias for things we know and are comfortable with, and couple that with the prestige the brand is known for and you get a tendency for haughtiness.
But don't try to pretend this doesn't exist for BMW, ESPECIALLY for M cars.
Obviously these stereotypes don't apply to everyone so my conclusion is you just got a few bad examples in your limited sample set.
And as a current owner of an M4 in the market for a 911, my take on what's "special" about the 911 (and Cayman/boxster for that matter) is that it is purpose-built from the ground up as a sports car. The same can't be said for BMW, even the M series... and certainly not for any number of other cars out there save perhaps the S2000 and to a lesser extent the Miata- but those cars suffer from more budget constraint than Porsche.
It really does put Porsche in a league of their own.
I'll agree that there are certain stereotypes that could easily apply to a variety of automotive communities. I'm no psychologist but this likely has to do with how our minds associate significant bias for things we know and are comfortable with, and couple that with the prestige the brand is known for and you get a tendency for haughtiness.
But don't try to pretend this doesn't exist for BMW, ESPECIALLY for M cars.
Obviously these stereotypes don't apply to everyone so my conclusion is you just got a few bad examples in your limited sample set.
And as a current owner of an M4 in the market for a 911, my take on what's "special" about the 911 (and Cayman/boxster for that matter) is that it is purpose-built from the ground up as a sports car. The same can't be said for BMW, even the M series... and certainly not for any number of other cars out there save perhaps the S2000 and to a lesser extent the Miata- but those cars suffer from more budget constraint than Porsche.
It really does put Porsche in a league of their own.
07-21-2017, 02:33 AM
#34
Rennlist Member
Porsches are great sports cars. Well engineered, fast enough, fun enough, reliable, all weather capable, practical enough, classic design, unique sound and a few unique traits to make it feel special, and quite frankly, not a lot wrong with them to criticize. But they aren't a great value - the best margins in the industry have to come from somewhere. If you want the car that makes the most of your dollar, this isn't the right car. But if you just want a great car to drive no questions asked, they really fit the bill.
07-21-2017, 04:24 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
07-22-2017, 01:12 AM
#37
Pro
Thread Starter
Porsche makes good cars. Some have had serious flaws, for which Porsche has left the owners in the lurch (examples include IMS Bearing issues, need to drop the engine to fix just about anything of substance mechanically on these cars).
Problem is with the Porsche resale market. And perhaps as illustrated in this and other threads, some of the people who own them.
Problem is with the Porsche resale market. And perhaps as illustrated in this and other threads, some of the people who own them.
07-22-2017, 01:59 AM
#38
Rennlist Member
Porsche makes good cars. Some have had serious flaws, for which Porsche has left the owners in the lurch (examples include IMS Bearing issues, need to drop the engine to fix just about anything of substance mechanically on these cars).
Problem is with the Porsche resale market. And perhaps as illustrated in this and other threads, some of the people who own them.
Problem is with the Porsche resale market. And perhaps as illustrated in this and other threads, some of the people who own them.
My Ducati's crankshaft broke while I was starting the bike. It was 30 months old. The warranty was 24 months with unlimited miles. I had spent just shy of $2000 getting the engine shim service done 600 miles before it happened. I asked the dealer I bought it new from about them (Ducati) sharing the cost of the repair - it was apparent Ducati got a batch of bad steel from a supplier and it ruined my motor - and the bike was only 2.5 years old. I was basically told to take a hike. The recent GT3 engine replacement program was a pretty stark contrast to that!
What's wrong with the resale market? It's a free market, so ... is it just not what you want it to be? If the cars seem to cost too much it simply means others see more in the cars than you do and are willing to pay for it.
As to the owners, I'm just not sure how that's something you can conclude with a sample of a few folks. I've had a very pleasant experience with PCA. Lots of great folks.
07-23-2017, 01:09 AM
#40
Pro
Thread Starter
What's wrong with the resale market? It's a free market, so ... is it just not what you want it to be? If the cars seem to cost too much it simply means others see more in the cars than you do and are willing to pay for it.
As to the owners, I'm just not sure how that's something you can conclude with a sample of a few folks. I've had a very pleasant experience with PCA. Lots of great folks.
I have no opinion whatever of Porsche car owners nor of BMW owners, or for that matter Honda or Hyundai owners; Prius owners, however, **** me off a lot, whenever I encounter them in traffic and they block my attempts to go the speed limit, plus a little.
I also have no opinion of PCA members, of whom I have met very few in real life. I'd consider joining, just I can't come up with a good reason to do so.
I did find it to be a huge chore to buy a used Porsche, in this case a 996 TT. I'm not sure I would do it again. The window is closing for people who like the way that sporty cars used to be made (with manual transmissions and hydraulic steering). There was a time when you could buy them with a few years of age, right after the steepest part of the depreciation curve, at a good price, often with very low mileage. No one makes cars like this anymore, and the older they get, the less straightforward the purchasing becomes.
07-23-2017, 10:06 PM
#41
Pro
I have to agree with Champignon, but I do believe he is really talking about the 996TT in specific. I have been looking on and off now for some time, for a 996TT and have not found a car that has suited my needs yet. While the car is amazing, I often find myself contemplating whether it is worth it. With the prices that are being asked, I demand records, and some evidence of care or knowledge...which is surprisingly hard to find. I have looked outside of my local market with the exact same results. It may be because these cars are selling themselves, which allows for sellers to do next to nothing to sell them, I don't know, and I don't care, but for the most part that has been my experience.
I have encountered nice sellers, but those cars have lacked records, etc. I am in Miami, and would love to buy a local car that I can put eyes on, and maybe it's Miami, but it is near impossible to find anything priced at a fair price from an owner with a brain. I am not looking for a low mileage, garage queen, which makes things more difficult...but I get the OP's points. One could pick up a Z06 or M car a bit easier for sure...not the same, but would certainly check off most of the boxes for less hassle and money. The reason I haven't pulled the trigger on a Z06 or M3/4 yet...well...because...it's not a 996TT.
I have encountered nice sellers, but those cars have lacked records, etc. I am in Miami, and would love to buy a local car that I can put eyes on, and maybe it's Miami, but it is near impossible to find anything priced at a fair price from an owner with a brain. I am not looking for a low mileage, garage queen, which makes things more difficult...but I get the OP's points. One could pick up a Z06 or M car a bit easier for sure...not the same, but would certainly check off most of the boxes for less hassle and money. The reason I haven't pulled the trigger on a Z06 or M3/4 yet...well...because...it's not a 996TT.
07-28-2017, 08:30 AM
#42
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I have a 2016 Golf R, which has the same Haldex system as the Audis you cite, plus is reputed from various head to head comparison tests to be more fun to drive and more responsive than Audi AWD S and RS cars. In the winter, I have Michelin Pilot Alpin PA4 XL tires on it. I also have a 2013 135i Coupe that I use in the winter, with Blizzaks on it all around on 18" wheels in a square (not staggered) setup). These are my 2, "winter cars," although they both get some use year round, on summer tires.
I would much rather drive the 135i Coupe in any condition other than a very deep snowfall, which if possible I'd prefer to avoid driving in, period. The BMW is just a way more fun car to drive, hands down. I did put the PPK performance pack, boosting the HP on the BMW by around 20, this past spring, but the comparison is from last winter's driving when the two cars had almost identical HP (292 for the VW vs. about 300 for the BMW). RWD beats AWD in anything other than really bad traction situations, in this type of car (hot hatch or small sedan). Good snow tires can make up for the traction differences between AWD and RWD in most driving situations.
Most online reviews I have read of recent year Audis like the ones you describe have been anything but flattering when it comes to describing how much fun they are to drive.Obviously, and self-evidently, from your post, this observation is not limited to owners of BMWS.
I would much rather drive the 135i Coupe in any condition other than a very deep snowfall, which if possible I'd prefer to avoid driving in, period. The BMW is just a way more fun car to drive, hands down. I did put the PPK performance pack, boosting the HP on the BMW by around 20, this past spring, but the comparison is from last winter's driving when the two cars had almost identical HP (292 for the VW vs. about 300 for the BMW). RWD beats AWD in anything other than really bad traction situations, in this type of car (hot hatch or small sedan). Good snow tires can make up for the traction differences between AWD and RWD in most driving situations.
Most online reviews I have read of recent year Audis like the ones you describe have been anything but flattering when it comes to describing how much fun they are to drive.Obviously, and self-evidently, from your post, this observation is not limited to owners of BMWS.
07-29-2017, 01:07 AM
#43
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Thread Starter
There are also no shortage of head to head comparisons of the Golf R vs. Audi S and RS cars in its size class (built on the same basic chassis) that seem to conclude, in the main, that the Golf R is a way more enjoyable car to drive, much more of a driver's performance car, than the Audis are, especially when cost is taken into consideration. Use your search engine of choice to find the very many, varied, reviews, on multiple sites.
All of that having been said, my Golf R, to me, is my "practical utility car." I would much rather drive any of my other cars on a given day than the Golf. The Golf is useful for its 5 doors and hatchback/cargo carrying capacity, plus it goes pretty well in the snow especially with real snow tires installed.
There are a couple of ultra expensive Audis that I think might be fun to drive (judgment reserved). Otherwise, they are gussied up pseudo-luxury VWs enrobed in fake luxury, a fleece job on the snobbish buying public. VWs ain't great either, just they are relatively cheap cars so what can one expect?
Last edited by champignon; 07-30-2017 at 04:10 PM. Reason: typo
07-30-2017, 04:13 PM
#45
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I continually get compliments from strangers on my 996TT, a lot of which I think is related to the rather ostentatious GT2 wing the prior owner installed on it. I get occasional comments on my other cars, but the Porsche is in a whole other league.
I'm not sure I really like that, all things being said, and it might attract vandalism when parked at the far reaches of a parking lot, especially when dark.
I'm not sure I really like that, all things being said, and it might attract vandalism when parked at the far reaches of a parking lot, especially when dark.