DTMiller

I'm sure I am not alone in being a beginner at DEs that enjoys watching video from my day on the track.

What sort of entry level data systems are there that I should be looking at?

I currently use an OBD2 connected by bluetooth to Racechrono android app on my phone, which also uses the phone's GPS. I then sync that to GoPro video using racerender.

Better/easier options for the beginner?

ProCoach

Great question!

Video is important, and becomes REALLY important when data is included or overlaid.

The TWO key differences between something relatively popular as an entry level "instrumented video" (like Harry's, considered good and cheap or your solution, which requires time consuming encoding) and a solution that is integrated, all-in-one, rendered on the fly in some cases and more expandable, yet more expensive (like SmartyCam HD, Video VBOX Lite, Race-Keeper) are:

RELIABILITY (did the darned thing catch that awesome run?!?!? No? Sheesh, not AGAIN!) and

EASE-OF-USE (automated stop/start, pull the chip and play the fully instrumented video thirty seconds later, additional logged information is viewable and arranged by a powerful, graphically rich software analysis program and, most importantly, NO BATTERIES TO CHARGE or run out on that magic run!).

I would say that to people who engage in conversations with me about "what should I buy" are really more like you. "What should I buy, NEXT?"

It's really about the fact that you see an advantage in all of this work that you do with the simple inexpensive tools that you have and wonder "what can be done to make this easier/better/less time consuming/so I can get more out of it?"

Yes, the entry tariff for the automated solutions is a big bump from the near nothing it costs to secure a copy of RaceRender 3, buy a BT OBD-II dongle and the RC or HLT app, and EVERYONE has a phone or a small tablet (which I predict will come online for more expedient use of the big stuff, in the not too distant future), but more and more, people are asking the same question you are. They KNOW that the technology may finally have hit a sweet spot between performance/reliability/ease of use and an acceptable price point.

And I believe it has. And will only get better, but not at the pace of laptops and PC's! <grin>

More soon.

ProCoach

I think a majority of people do this for fun. Part of that fun is Plug and Play (PnP) ease of use. We don't want to spend the little time we have between sessions when we are AT THE TRACK to fiddle with the gear. And it darned well better work when we get that "perfect lap" in following (or leading) our friends! People really want something that does all this, but "just works." It wasn't always this way. We live in a golden age for the "democratization" of performance driving information technology! Best part is, you DON'T NEED to be a geek to get good, simple info to go FASTER, right NOW!

Top down approach is Pi (Cosworth) Electronics, MoTeC, Bosch Motorsports, RD and other professional logging solutions that have been required in professional road racing for, now, decades. These systems are powerful, infinitely configurable, are biased towards providing numbers and information to engineers to alter fundamentally the performance of the CAR and, incidentally, provide information to said engineers that may shed insight into WHY the car doesn't go as well as they think it should! That darned "loose nut, soft tissue behind the wheel!" Basically, systems that require constant and dedicated personnel JUST to prepare them to record, begin and end their operation, harvest the information, troubleshoot the information that is NOT coming through that should, and arrange that information into a graphical display that the engineers (and those pesky drivers) can make sense out of.

Bottom up is RaceChrono, HLT and other phone/tablet apps, then Race Capture Pro (new open source logger that can be triggered to operate external cameras), then standalone basic loggers like QStarZ, AiM Solo, VBOX Sport, Traqmate Basic and using a third-party software app to combine data gathered from those loggers with video from a Replay/Contour/Drift/GoPro, then automated, combined-after-the-fact data video/data systems like TraqDash/Mobius. All able to be done by the owner/driver/crew/chief cook and bottle washer, but time consuming and not always reliable.

I'll talk about the solutions that you seek, the middle ground of the two above, next. There are several...

ProCoach

So, the discussion started as "how can I progress from my inexpensive, but clunky, cobbled together using a variety of components, some of which may or may not work, to the NEXT step in gear..."

The OP asks about "entry level" and "better/easier options" as a step up from what he has! To me, that means:

1) a coordinated, automated recorder/camera combination that will yield "intelligent video" (data overlaid onto HD video automatically, rendered real-time) ready to view within thirty seconds of returning to the paddock
2) on cars with this capability, the ability to use the car's onboard and manufacturer installed sensors to provide SIMPLE, basic and required data for the purpose of driver improvement. Engine RPM, throttle pedal position at a minimum, brake pressure or brake pedal position and steering angle, if possible
3) incorporates a preloaded database that allows for instant loading of start/finish coordinates as soon as a GPS lock is had

More soon.

DTMiller

Good stuff! You are dead on with your interpretation of what I am looking for. Looking forward to the next section.

ProCoach

Thanks! I think the reason why is because, over the last six or seven years, at least two or three times a day, I pick up the phone or respond to an email on EXACTLY this same question!

I don't get tired at all answering, because the state of the art is always changing and because I am a lifelong learner, myself.

But instead of adding more channels and increasing the complexity of the interpretation (although I am capable of that), my desire and natural workflow is to distill, divine and condense the information that IS available to no more than one or two "things to do next."

This art and science of driving fast is NOT rocket science, although it is very difficult to do at a very high level. However, by the study of drivers who are able to execute in high fidelity and with great confidence, certain patterns emerge. I help people see those patterns and formulate strategies to execute them more perfectly... That's all. The current crop of equipment helps me and helps others does this, far better than it ever has before.

Is there a silver bullet? A "one system fits all?" No, of course not. Although all these systems measure the same things with roughly the same accuracy, the way they choose to display it (and the ease with which the average Joe can manipulate the information to DO JUST THAT, BETWEEN run group sessions) differs according to what the manufacturer THINKS is important.

Fortunately, there are a few simple parameters that can be displayed well by MoTeC, AiM, Video VBOX, Race-Keeper and a few others that really help DEFINE those one or two "things to do next." Although no ONE parameter is good enough foundation to hang your hat on, and you ALWAYS want a few different perspectives on the same information to validate it as "real," video has made this MUCH, MUCH easier. Video, in my mind, is invaluable.

Is the data important? Sure. I ask people to drill down on just a few things after they examine and analyze very carefully, comparing what they remember they did to what they ACTUALLY did, on-track and in the video! But watch the video FIRST!

It can prevent a lot of questions needing to be asked...

More soon.

CharleyH

I can't tell you what is the best path for you... But I can share the pro's and con's of the path I have been down. I started with a contour camera and a stand alone RaceChrono (not the cell phone version) to collect data. I used this system for several years. The Pro's of this set up were: 1) it was easily portable between cars, so on the occasions where I would fly to a track and use a rental racer, I could quickly set up my system. 2) the RaceChrono would flash colors when I got a best time on a sector or lap. 3) it was easy to see in the car and it was easy to see lap and sector times between sessions. The con's were: 1) it is a major PITA to deal with battery operated units. I had to change the camera battery every few sessions, and would sometimes have to charge the RaceChrono between sessions.... Not to mention I had to make sure all of the batteries were charged before the track day. 2) it is a pain to download the data file, convert it to guages and then merg it to the video. Also the timing of the guages / data was always slightly out of sync with the video which made it hard to learn timing of throttle, etc. 3) I didn't have throttle and brake inputs for the RaceChrono which really slows learning.

Then I purchased a dedicated racecar with an Aim Pista dash, but I was still using the Contour camera. This was a tremendous improvement! The Pro's of this system are: 1) I could download my data to a laptop between sessions and get some good analysis. For example I download color maps showing the G's I am pulling through corners. This is really helpful for calibrating yor brain to the capabilities of the car.... Like going through turn 8 at Willow Spring, which is a scary 125++ mph corner that your brain tells your foot "LIFT, LIFT!!!", but the data clearly shows that the corner should be taken flat out. 2) it is nice not having to worry about charging the system or starting/ stopping the system. The Con's of this set up were: 1) still have to change batteries in the camera and remember to turn the camera on and off. 2) the contour was inconcictent in the high vibration environment of a real race car. 3) still had to deal with the hassle of adding the data to the video and accurately aligning the data is still very challenging. 4) even though my data had throttle and brake inputs they never showed accurately in race render, also, race render would show my lateral G's in reverse. 4) the Aim data system is very capable and takes some time to learn.

Recently I purchased a Smartycam HD GP and now have an integrated video / data system.... I don't know why I waited so long, this system is great! The Pro's of this system are: 1) the data and video are automatically integrated and everything starts and stops automatically. 2) nothing has to be charged, and no batteries need to be changed. 3) it is easy to watch the video's between sessions (or at lunch) to see what is working and what isn't. 3) this is an extremely robust system that stands up to the challenges of a true racecar environment. The con's of this system are: 1) higher up front cost, 2) you have to preselect the guages before you take the video and you can't change them later, 3) there isn't as much custom ability of the guages.

In short..... I can't believe I waisted so much time with a non integrated system. Like so many things about tracking a car, I am always trying to find ways to spend less, but then in time it cost me more than it would have if I had just done it right the first time.

Here is what my early system looked like (RaceChrono with Contour camera)

Here is what the color map looks like....



Here is a video using the Aim Pista dash and Contour camera (using race render to merge them, you can see that the video and data are not timed quite right, and I couldn't get the throttle and brake data to work properly (also the Lateral G meter is backwards). Also, I had to move the camera to this location because the video files were getting corrupted due to the high vibration in other areas (This wasn't a problem with a street based car)


Here is a video I took with the fully integrated SmartyCam and Aim Pista dash. This was my first time out with this system and I am still playing with the gauge layout and microphone location

Charley

ProCoach

CharleyH has seen one of the answers. Through his progression, not dissimilar to the OP's, he's come up with a system that works well and fulfills the three important requirements, as outlined above.

First, I do discard MoTeC as an entry level choice. While I am a dealer, and I bought a C185 as an upgrade to my C125 for my own car (I will keep the AiM EVO4/G-Dash and Video VBOX HD, thank you very much), there is no REASONABLE integrated video solution short of the MoTeC VCS (Video Capture System) HD at $3100. Oh, and that's JUST for the VCS-HD. A friend of mine in Florida sells a Stack DVR set up specifically as a better alternative to the ChaseCam setup the VCS-HD replaces, but nearly as pricey. The time requirements to set a venue before you even go out and load a reference lap to be able to generate a predictive lap is beyond most enthusiast driver's desires.

While Race-Keeper has taken a huge step forward with their recently released HDX2, it's still not readily available, has no reliable dash replacement display (it was never designed to do that. If you want to do that, they offer a MoTeC CDL3 in combination with their standard definition video logger, at near $6K), and the software, while incorporating several good features, most notably side-by-side video, offers not much other than strip charts or an X-Y plot to examine the simple logged channels. It's a great add-on, but it's not expandable in many of the ways folks want to go and the CAN interface, the ability to log and show car sensors integrated on newer (post 2006, for the most part) cars is very, very limited. The video is recorded raw, and along with the data file, mated LATER upon playback through the Comparo software. The HDX2 version starts around $3000.

So, in my experience, the two choices that most attract people like the OP are:

1) Video VBOX, a very simple "one-box" video/data logging system, albeit with only a dash display that shows predictive lap timing, lap times and some other basic info, but is simple, rugged, pretty reliable. And did I say dead-nuts simple enough, yet? Standard definition, stereo audio, SD card and good VIDEO COMPARISON software. Data analysis software? Not so much, but the video comparison capabilities of this system are valuable enough so that I install one on almost every coaching client I work with, on top of MoTeC and AiM (or Pi on the new Cup cars...).

The Video VBOX Lite, at $1750 without the display, $2100 with the bundled display, has two bullet cameras to show picture in picture, collects speed, g's (which it calculates off GPS info, that's another thread), lap times and a friction circle and records all this information ON the video, REAL-TIME, just like the SmartyCam HD. They have a single camera HD version that is not so capable, but still can show side-by-side, GPS position justified video between two drivers, or one driver on two laps, at the SAME point. Why is that valuable? It shows the ATTITUDE of the car's approach and exit from an apex and really digs into how the best geometry really helps performance. It's very, very easy to use.

But it's not expandable, has not much better CAN protocol capability (getting information from a car's existing sensors) than the R-K, has no dash display for engine health indicators, no shift lights and IF you lose GPS, you lose speed, lap timing and a number of other important data points. So for someone who is not interested in the next choice, the Video VBOX Lite is a good one. The new HD coming out this summer, should be better, but will be more than $2620, plus a display.

2) AiM Sportline. A truly modular system, whose components can often be mixed and matched to YOUR particular requirements. I have to say that the number one combination of components I sell and recommend for modern cars (996 would be the earliest and it's staggering what you can get out of a 981 or 991), is the Solo DL/SmartyCam HD combination. With this system and two wires (plus power), you can make instant videos with speed, engine RPM, throttle pedal position, a friction circle already on a beautiful HD picture and log enough good information to keep you busy for years. You can also, with practice, learn to find one or two things in an hour between sessions at a DE.

For older cars, I have sold a fair number of (and still recommend) EVO4/G-Dash or MXL-Dash combination display/loggers. This is a great combo that allows a combination of information from any sensors readable on the car with the addition of your own added analog (resistance for temperature, length for measure) sensors. Of course, you can send this all to a SmartyCam HD to be displayed on the video. The EVO 4 is ideal for people who wish to keep their stock instrument cluster, or you can do away with your instruments and add an optional dash.

Many older cars, like CharleyH's, come with an MXL Pista, an earlier logger/display that was all in one. The addition of (or making work an existing) SmartyCam can really yield good info, FAST!

The replacement for the MXL is the MXL2, which integrates and includes GPS and six axis accelerometers. Just a much more powerful MXL, the MXL2 is what I recommend for people who want to replace the tach, add shift lights, add programmable alarms to alert them to low pressure and high temperatures, etc.

Then, there is the MXG, the new color dash. Sweet, but big! Better for presbyopic eyes! Hahahaha!

More tomorrow.

Matt Romanowski

Steve has been pushing their tablet based dash pretty heavy. I've been lead to believe it's pretty reliable (I haven't use it myself) but I question how robust it is having a tablet in a race car.

You wouldn't believe how often I hear this exact sentiment. In my opinion, a good data/video system has to be:

1. Easy to use so that you will always use it. I believe this includes automatically turning on and off, running off battery power, and automatically picking up your location, start, and finish.
2. Be completely reliable so it always works.

If it a system can't do the above, it will seriously limit your learning, make you frustrated, and end up not being used.

cetom

great write up .
is it possible to use multiple cameras with the AIM system

924RACR

All good points above. I will say that we were able to fix the problem with the Contour due to vibrations - just wedge the battery in place with a zip-tie stub. Only major problem with that setup - but I'd still much rather have a system that ran off of battery power.

Similarly, on data: some systems (like my current DL1, which I otherwise love) will create corrupt/useless data files if power is lost while logging. Do any of the others have this problem? I know the AIM MyChron3 in the 924 doesn't - data is always good.

OTOH, one thing I continue to HATE about the MyChron3 is the need for a USB laptop connection to download data: slow, and painful thanks to the USB driver implementation. Have they fixed that yet? This is one of the major strengths of the DL1 IMO, since it's just a CF card to pop in a reader and copy the file...

Matt Romanowski

The MXL AND Evo4 still use USB, but you can get a memory key that is removable and then plug that into the computer. Still USB but very handy. The MXL2 and MXG are USB but will also have Wi Fi download soon. The memory key is usable with the new loggers as well.

Goosebug

I have a relatively newly acquired 996 cup. It has an MXL AIM dash. Not sure if it's just a dash or a logger and dash. Hard to tell from the outside. Suggestions?
If just a dash, suggestions to upgrade? Buy a whole new MXL pro? Or keep the dash and get something that is a logger that integrates with the dash? Thanks

ProCoach

Yes, but not picture in picture (unless you do that yourself, after the fact). I have a number of folks that plug two or three cameras into the 4-port Data Hub. All charged, turned on and off, as well as supplied all information written on the video by the master logger.

Vaughan, break down and buy a system that has been introduced since 2001! Both the DL1 and MyChron 3 came out in THAT year!

Seriously, the MyChron 3 can't be upgraded to GPS (I assume that's why you have the DL1 and Dash-2) and can't send information to or control a SmartyCam! Sheesh! Call me, I'll help an old Racer University faculty member out...

I would be willing to bet it is an MXL Pista (logger/display). Take a look on the lower left side of the dash and there should be a rubber flap over a earphone size plug. If you have a cable, and Matt or I can send you one, you can get that good info out of it! You should check to see if there is an AiM antenna on the roof. If not, we can help with that, too. You can buy an MXL2, if you want, but I would tune up what you have and begin using it. You can add a camera to that, if you wish. Let us know how we can help.

Goosebug

Thanks ProCoach!
Will take a look. Is it a USB cable on the other end? I assumed the antenna was the radio. Will double check that as well and keep you posted. Maybe PM me your contact info/shop info/ etc
Thanks again