Garmin Catalyst Technical "Hacks"
12-22-2022, 05:19 PM
#16
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An interesting thought from Ross and what he normally coaches/teaches https://speedsecrets.com/the-most-important-corner/
Though I agree with Ross, the real answer is very often "it depends."
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911T4ME (01-10-2023)
12-22-2022, 05:48 PM
#17
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I don't agree with Ross, and I've been public about that (even in dozens of our webinars and videos together) for more than a decade. Almost none of the terabytes of data I've collected or reviewed support his suggestion that the fast corners are the most important.
Instead, my information and experience indicates that if you can gain six miles per hour in a sixty mile per hour corner, that's a 10% gain. There are are many sixty and sub sixty mile per hour corners (which tend to last a fair bit of time at those speeds) at most tracks.
If you gain two mph in a hundred mile per hour corner, that's a 2% gain. There are VERY few hundred mile per hour corners that last ten seconds, much less hundred mile per hour corners in general.
As you know, the fixation on vMin, while useful to grade corners and chart improvement, don't tell the tale of how quick people get into or out of that corner. THIS is the real challenge, slowing too soon and accelerating too late. Hanging around a vMin for longer than you should.
As stated, the quest for a slightly higher vMin can easily backfire in the driver confidence suffering enough not to get back to WOT sooner than if they slowed slightly more.
But that's what is great about this sport. It's easy to say "it depends." It's hard to come up with a concrete plan that yields improvement.
Instead, my information and experience indicates that if you can gain six miles per hour in a sixty mile per hour corner, that's a 10% gain. There are are many sixty and sub sixty mile per hour corners (which tend to last a fair bit of time at those speeds) at most tracks.
If you gain two mph in a hundred mile per hour corner, that's a 2% gain. There are VERY few hundred mile per hour corners that last ten seconds, much less hundred mile per hour corners in general.
As you know, the fixation on vMin, while useful to grade corners and chart improvement, don't tell the tale of how quick people get into or out of that corner. THIS is the real challenge, slowing too soon and accelerating too late. Hanging around a vMin for longer than you should.
As stated, the quest for a slightly higher vMin can easily backfire in the driver confidence suffering enough not to get back to WOT sooner than if they slowed slightly more.
But that's what is great about this sport. It's easy to say "it depends." It's hard to come up with a concrete plan that yields improvement.
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12-22-2022, 07:33 PM
#18
Instructor
Thread Starter
Thanks Matt and Peter. I was looking for a sounding board for my work and I appreciate the input.
As a new driver I'm looking for every possible opportunity to learn and always try to use all the tools at my disposal...even if I have to create them. I realize that coaches, instructors, books, videos, Rennlist, etc., and my own data analysis will never take the place of seat time. I fully expect to look back on all of my efforts in a couple of years and have a good chuckle. But I suppose it's all a part of the process and the more time I spend thinking about driving the more I understand. The data is just a part of it.
The Catalyst data has been hard won. It's complex and difficult but I enjoy the challenge. I began with vMin because it's the easiest of the hard and it's a place to start. Entry and exit speed is proving much more difficult because the Catalyst doesn't seem to embed "turns" or "segments" in the FIT data when exporting to a CSV file. But I'm working on it because "segment" shows up on the device itself. I just have to find it in the data.
As a new driver I'm looking for every possible opportunity to learn and always try to use all the tools at my disposal...even if I have to create them. I realize that coaches, instructors, books, videos, Rennlist, etc., and my own data analysis will never take the place of seat time. I fully expect to look back on all of my efforts in a couple of years and have a good chuckle. But I suppose it's all a part of the process and the more time I spend thinking about driving the more I understand. The data is just a part of it.
The Catalyst data has been hard won. It's complex and difficult but I enjoy the challenge. I began with vMin because it's the easiest of the hard and it's a place to start. Entry and exit speed is proving much more difficult because the Catalyst doesn't seem to embed "turns" or "segments" in the FIT data when exporting to a CSV file. But I'm working on it because "segment" shows up on the device itself. I just have to find it in the data.
12-22-2022, 08:11 PM
#19
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I don't agree with Ross, and I've been public about that (even in dozens of our webinars and videos together) for more than a decade. Almost none of the terabytes of data I've collected or reviewed support his suggestion that the fast corners are the most important.
Instead, my information and experience indicates that if you can gain six miles per hour in a sixty mile per hour corner, that's a 10% gain. There are are many sixty and sub sixty mile per hour corners (which tend to last a fair bit of time at those speeds) at most tracks.
If you gain two mph in a hundred mile per hour corner, that's a 2% gain. There are VERY few hundred mile per hour corners that last ten seconds, much less hundred mile per hour corners in general.
As you know, the fixation on vMin, while useful to grade corners and chart improvement, don't tell the tale of how quick people get into or out of that corner. THIS is the real challenge, slowing too soon and accelerating too late. Hanging around a vMin for longer than you should.
As stated, the quest for a slightly higher vMin can easily backfire in the driver confidence suffering enough not to get back to WOT sooner than if they slowed slightly more.
But that's what is great about this sport. It's easy to say "it depends." It's hard to come up with a concrete plan that yields improvement.
Instead, my information and experience indicates that if you can gain six miles per hour in a sixty mile per hour corner, that's a 10% gain. There are are many sixty and sub sixty mile per hour corners (which tend to last a fair bit of time at those speeds) at most tracks.
If you gain two mph in a hundred mile per hour corner, that's a 2% gain. There are VERY few hundred mile per hour corners that last ten seconds, much less hundred mile per hour corners in general.
As you know, the fixation on vMin, while useful to grade corners and chart improvement, don't tell the tale of how quick people get into or out of that corner. THIS is the real challenge, slowing too soon and accelerating too late. Hanging around a vMin for longer than you should.
As stated, the quest for a slightly higher vMin can easily backfire in the driver confidence suffering enough not to get back to WOT sooner than if they slowed slightly more.
But that's what is great about this sport. It's easy to say "it depends." It's hard to come up with a concrete plan that yields improvement.
I think it's too simple to say that a corner's importance is based on being high or low speed or the length of the following straight. When you denude the problem to the core, you find it varies by driver. Some drivers excel at high speed corners, some at low speed, some at none
Then it's a matter of getting the largest return from the driver regardless of corner. Bringing the driver's worst performance up is almost always the area of largest return, though it always depends. Back to the OP's study of importance, it would be great to track that over a season or two and compare against drivers. There are always statistics, damn statistics, and lies.
12-23-2022, 06:51 AM
#20
Instructor
Thread Starter
You're deleted replies were great and spoke to some of this. Too bad they are gone.
I think it's too simple to say that a corner's importance is based on being high or low speed or the length of the following straight. When you denude the problem to the core, you find it varies by driver. Some drivers excel at high speed corners, some at low speed, some at none Then it's a matter of getting the largest return from the driver regardless of corner. Bringing the driver's worst performance up is almost always the area of largest return, though it always depends.
Back to the OP's study of importance, it would be great to track that over a season or two and compare against drivers. There are always statistics, damn statistics, and lies.
I think it's too simple to say that a corner's importance is based on being high or low speed or the length of the following straight. When you denude the problem to the core, you find it varies by driver. Some drivers excel at high speed corners, some at low speed, some at none
Then it's a matter of getting the largest return from the driver regardless of corner. Bringing the driver's worst performance up is almost always the area of largest return, though it always depends. Back to the OP's study of importance, it would be great to track that over a season or two and compare against drivers. There are always statistics, damn statistics, and lies.
12-25-2022, 10:40 AM
#21
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Merry Christmas.
My reply showed I didn’t read carefully the premise of the measure and substituted my own. So, it wasn’t relevant or even connected to the idea. While interesting, it was confusing, so it went away.
I can only say that I believe much more in what my friend and colleague E. Paul Dickinson wrote some time ago:
If I were to ask, “What is the most important turn on the course?” everyone would have an answer. And, for the most part, we might be able to come to an agreement. Many would answer, “It’s the turn preceding the longest straight.”
However, a reliable argument could be made that the most important turn on course is the one giving you the most difficulty. In other words, it’s the turn that provides the most immediate opportunity for you to become quicker.
While each turn on track is an adventure, never doubt that every one is also a test. They are tests of your current and evolving judgment and skill. They are complex tests that need to be taken in earnest and should be viewed on a higher scale than just pass/fail.
It makes no difference how fast the car can go. It’s how fast you can go.
My reply showed I didn’t read carefully the premise of the measure and substituted my own. So, it wasn’t relevant or even connected to the idea. While interesting, it was confusing, so it went away.
I can only say that I believe much more in what my friend and colleague E. Paul Dickinson wrote some time ago:
If I were to ask, “What is the most important turn on the course?” everyone would have an answer. And, for the most part, we might be able to come to an agreement. Many would answer, “It’s the turn preceding the longest straight.”
However, a reliable argument could be made that the most important turn on course is the one giving you the most difficulty. In other words, it’s the turn that provides the most immediate opportunity for you to become quicker.
While each turn on track is an adventure, never doubt that every one is also a test. They are tests of your current and evolving judgment and skill. They are complex tests that need to be taken in earnest and should be viewed on a higher scale than just pass/fail.
It makes no difference how fast the car can go. It’s how fast you can go.
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01-01-2023, 01:22 PM
#22
Instructor
Thread Starter
Going through some of Ross Bentley's older SpeedSecrets posts I found this gem:
“How about Sebring? The corner that leads onto the longest straight is Turn 16, a 90-degree corner that exits onto a super-long straight. Follow the classic advice and it’s obvious it’s the most important corner. And yet, anyone who has driven Sebring will tell you that Turns 1 and 17 have a bigger impact on lap time, simply because they are so darn difficult to get right. And they’re intimidating. And bumpy (that goes without saying when talking about Sebring)!” Reprinted with permission
“How about Sebring? The corner that leads onto the longest straight is Turn 16, a 90-degree corner that exits onto a super-long straight. Follow the classic advice and it’s obvious it’s the most important corner. And yet, anyone who has driven Sebring will tell you that Turns 1 and 17 have a bigger impact on lap time, simply because they are so darn difficult to get right. And they’re intimidating. And bumpy (that goes without saying when talking about Sebring)!” Reprinted with permission
01-02-2023, 02:26 PM
#23
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Again, my experience is that the duration between initial braking and shifting up exiting the corner is lengthy in both T17 and T1.
The braking duration is almost always too long and too premature in both, especially T17.
Couple that with not enough power down at the end of slowing to keep the vMin from dropping further as the steering wheel is turned, plus late to WOT coming out, and both of those are huge time sinks.
Most drivers are burning MANY seconds below 74-75 at T17, same below 90 at T1.
Shorten the dwell around vMin and that will help a LOT more than raising vMin.
The braking duration is almost always too long and too premature in both, especially T17.
Couple that with not enough power down at the end of slowing to keep the vMin from dropping further as the steering wheel is turned, plus late to WOT coming out, and both of those are huge time sinks.
Most drivers are burning MANY seconds below 74-75 at T17, same below 90 at T1.
Shorten the dwell around vMin and that will help a LOT more than raising vMin.
01-02-2023, 04:29 PM
#24
Instructor
Thread Starter
Thanks Peter. I can see from my Catalyst "hack" that over the course of three days my duration near vMin (+/- 2mph) in T17 was between 3 and 5 seconds. Need to work on making my acceleration chart a "V" instead of a "U" as I believe I've heard you teach so often. I appreciate the input.
For the sake of curiosity, here is what the rest of Sebring looked like for me during that event (ASNvMin is average seconds near vMin). Turn 1 and 17 make sense but it looks like there's a lot of work to do in the other shorter turns.......
Turn ASNvMin
Turn 1 3.362
Turn 3 2.030
Turn 4 0.845
Turn 5 2.045
Turn 7 1.656
Turn 10 1.748
Turn 13 2.728
Turn 15a 2.698
Turn 15b 1.496
Turn 16 1.799
Turn 17 3.389
For the sake of curiosity, here is what the rest of Sebring looked like for me during that event (ASNvMin is average seconds near vMin). Turn 1 and 17 make sense but it looks like there's a lot of work to do in the other shorter turns.......
Turn ASNvMin
Turn 1 3.362
Turn 3 2.030
Turn 4 0.845
Turn 5 2.045
Turn 7 1.656
Turn 10 1.748
Turn 13 2.728
Turn 15a 2.698
Turn 15b 1.496
Turn 16 1.799
Turn 17 3.389
Last edited by lgusto; 01-02-2023 at 09:25 PM. Reason: clarity
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ProCoach (01-02-2023)
05-01-2023, 06:29 AM
#25
Hey Igusto,
I wanted to know if you could provide a short tutorial on how to get the .fit files or the raw data from the catalyst? I can find anything in the file browser when I have it plugged into my PC. I just had a race weekend in Zolder and would love to go over the raw data
Thanks in advance!
I wanted to know if you could provide a short tutorial on how to get the .fit files or the raw data from the catalyst? I can find anything in the file browser when I have it plugged into my PC. I just had a race weekend in Zolder and would love to go over the raw data
Thanks in advance!
05-01-2023, 07:08 AM
#26
Instructor
Thread Starter
Garmin decided to remove access to the FIT files with Catalyst update 5.30.
I think their logic is that most drivers will find the Catalyst App sufficient for post-session analysis. Very unfortunate for those of us who want to really understand our driving and formulate new theories for improvement.
As an example, I was evaluating the correct gear to use in a particular corner. With the FIT data I could easily see my average vMin, average exit speed and average duration in that corner over the course of hundreds of laps. Then I did the same analysis using a different gear over the course of a weekend. VERY helpful.
Perhaps if enough Catalyst users express dissatisfaction over the loss of this data Garmin will simply turn the feature back on, or at least make it a configuration option. But I'm not holding my breath and am looking into real driving tools like AiM.
I think their logic is that most drivers will find the Catalyst App sufficient for post-session analysis. Very unfortunate for those of us who want to really understand our driving and formulate new theories for improvement.
As an example, I was evaluating the correct gear to use in a particular corner. With the FIT data I could easily see my average vMin, average exit speed and average duration in that corner over the course of hundreds of laps. Then I did the same analysis using a different gear over the course of a weekend. VERY helpful.
Perhaps if enough Catalyst users express dissatisfaction over the loss of this data Garmin will simply turn the feature back on, or at least make it a configuration option. But I'm not holding my breath and am looking into real driving tools like AiM.
05-01-2023, 08:00 AM
#27
Oh man that is disappointing,
I do not understand the choice. Why not allow the user to do with the data what they want? Oh well, I will write garmin support and ask them if they can return the feature.
For on track quick analysis I think the garmin software is great but I would love something a bit more extensive for when I am not at the track and have more time ( and do not need to use a touchscreen to use)
Thanks though!
I do not understand the choice. Why not allow the user to do with the data what they want? Oh well, I will write garmin support and ask them if they can return the feature.
For on track quick analysis I think the garmin software is great but I would love something a bit more extensive for when I am not at the track and have more time ( and do not need to use a touchscreen to use)
Thanks though!
05-01-2023, 08:06 AM
#28
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Guys, the FIT file export was canned due to the demise of the obsolete Garmin Connect online database after a decade and coincided with the release of the much more powerful and useful (for most users) App.
No subterfuge. If you wasn’t file export and it’s in their development timeline, I’ve seen them be remarkably responsive to feature adds.
Horses for courses, if you want .csv export so you can manipulate statistics similar to what Larry was doing, then get a tool for the job. AiM, VBOX, MoTeC, Apex Pro and other apps offer this.
The Catalyst’s design brief does not include this. Other equipment does.
No subterfuge. If you wasn’t file export and it’s in their development timeline, I’ve seen them be remarkably responsive to feature adds.
Horses for courses, if you want .csv export so you can manipulate statistics similar to what Larry was doing, then get a tool for the job. AiM, VBOX, MoTeC, Apex Pro and other apps offer this.
The Catalyst’s design brief does not include this. Other equipment does.
Last edited by ProCoach; 05-01-2023 at 08:11 AM.
05-01-2023, 08:11 AM
#29
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Garmin decided to remove access to the FIT files with Catalyst update 5.30.
I think their logic is that most drivers will find the Catalyst App sufficient for post-session analysis. Very unfortunate for those of us who want to really understand our driving and formulate new theories for improvement.
As an example, I was evaluating the correct gear to use in a particular corner. With the FIT data I could easily see my average vMin, average exit speed and average duration in that corner over the course of hundreds of laps. Then I did the same analysis using a different gear over the course of a weekend. VERY helpful.
Perhaps if enough Catalyst users express dissatisfaction over the loss of this data Garmin will simply turn the feature back on, or at least make it a configuration option. But I'm not holding my breath and am looking into real driving tools like AiM.
I think their logic is that most drivers will find the Catalyst App sufficient for post-session analysis. Very unfortunate for those of us who want to really understand our driving and formulate new theories for improvement.
As an example, I was evaluating the correct gear to use in a particular corner. With the FIT data I could easily see my average vMin, average exit speed and average duration in that corner over the course of hundreds of laps. Then I did the same analysis using a different gear over the course of a weekend. VERY helpful.
Perhaps if enough Catalyst users express dissatisfaction over the loss of this data Garmin will simply turn the feature back on, or at least make it a configuration option. But I'm not holding my breath and am looking into real driving tools like AiM.
05-01-2023, 08:18 AM
#30
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The most effective contact address for the Catalyst development crew is garmin pit crew (all one word) <at> garmin <dot> com
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FreddyL (05-01-2023)