WTB / Looking for advice
01-11-2018, 03:50 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
WTB / Looking for advice
Eventually I want to add a digital dash to my car as well as a video recording / data analytics system (similar to a Racekeeper for example). BUT - being that I just put a FSI motor in the car as well as a new trans and suspension - I'd like to find something in the meantime that is better than Harry's to be used as a lap timer. I see a bunch of the AIM Solo's for sale - but not many moving. Id rather not buy something that I'll never be able to resell - or that I kick myself later for. I have no idea as to the benefits of an AIM system versus the HLT....
I no longer use the HLT for video - it's just too shakey. Thats why I want a dedicated video system for the car (at some point).
Advice?
I no longer use the HLT for video - it's just too shakey. Thats why I want a dedicated video system for the car (at some point).
Advice?
01-11-2018, 04:37 PM
#2
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I'm sure Matt, Jerry or others will respond as well, but there's a pretty normal (and common) progression from HLT and other apps to purpose-built hardware like AiM, VBOX and other portable systems that integrate video as part of them.
I rarely get or have used AiM Solo or Solo DL's. As a matter of fact, when I see them come out for sale, the latter usually go pretty quickly for the $400-$495 range with mount and all accessories. For the money, they're a deal.
Why? Because on most cars built in the last ten years, they can connect via two wires or through the OBDII port (depends completely on the year/make/model of car) and get TREMENDOUS amounts of information. The Solo can only be used standalone, no connection to the car or camera is possible. Only the Solo DL can, with one wire, send power, speed, track position and car information to the SmartyCam HD video camera.
Where the video part of the AiM combination of the Solo DL/SmartyCam HD is really strong in is rendering (or encoding through computer processing power IN the camera) this digital information RIGHT ON the video background itself, such that you can play the fully instrumented video within thirty seconds of returning to the paddock.
If you want to dig deeper, you can download data from the Solo DL and slice and dice to your heart's content. Colored maps with throttle and RPM, strip charts, scatter plots. I try not to make it too complicated, just a few key measure looked at ALL the time for trends.
The new Solo 2 DL has been delayed from their initial January estimate, as usual. If anyone tells you they will have them on a particualr date, they're not telling you the truth. We don't know when they'll be here. Even the importer.
The current Solo DL will be supported for a long time, and files generated by it will be compatible for comparison with the new version when it comes out. The way it connects to the car, the type of cars it connects to, the information it gets from these cars IS THE SAME AS THE NEW Solo 2 DL. The new version has a couple of LED's that are configurable, takes a conventional RPM input (the older one does not) and has wireless ONLY download, along with a simple App which will be released down the road. Is the new one better? Sure. In the way it conveys information.
But if you're looking for an interim solution, until you want to add a full size display logger to your car, you can save yourself two to three hundred dollars using the tried and true Solo DL/SCHD combination (if you find a used Solo DL for $400-$500, new price for both the Solo DL and the Solo 2 DL is $699).
The most common "dedicated video system" for Rennlist users is the Solo DL/SmartyCam HD Rev2.1 (the latter being the camera, also completely compatible with the new Solo 2 DL) combination. Runs about $1766 with mounts and everything needed to plug and play. Personally, I've sold more than four hundred such combinations to RLers alone in the last four years.
I rarely get or have used AiM Solo or Solo DL's. As a matter of fact, when I see them come out for sale, the latter usually go pretty quickly for the $400-$495 range with mount and all accessories. For the money, they're a deal.
Why? Because on most cars built in the last ten years, they can connect via two wires or through the OBDII port (depends completely on the year/make/model of car) and get TREMENDOUS amounts of information. The Solo can only be used standalone, no connection to the car or camera is possible. Only the Solo DL can, with one wire, send power, speed, track position and car information to the SmartyCam HD video camera.
Where the video part of the AiM combination of the Solo DL/SmartyCam HD is really strong in is rendering (or encoding through computer processing power IN the camera) this digital information RIGHT ON the video background itself, such that you can play the fully instrumented video within thirty seconds of returning to the paddock.
If you want to dig deeper, you can download data from the Solo DL and slice and dice to your heart's content. Colored maps with throttle and RPM, strip charts, scatter plots. I try not to make it too complicated, just a few key measure looked at ALL the time for trends.
The new Solo 2 DL has been delayed from their initial January estimate, as usual. If anyone tells you they will have them on a particualr date, they're not telling you the truth. We don't know when they'll be here. Even the importer.
The current Solo DL will be supported for a long time, and files generated by it will be compatible for comparison with the new version when it comes out. The way it connects to the car, the type of cars it connects to, the information it gets from these cars IS THE SAME AS THE NEW Solo 2 DL. The new version has a couple of LED's that are configurable, takes a conventional RPM input (the older one does not) and has wireless ONLY download, along with a simple App which will be released down the road. Is the new one better? Sure. In the way it conveys information.
But if you're looking for an interim solution, until you want to add a full size display logger to your car, you can save yourself two to three hundred dollars using the tried and true Solo DL/SCHD combination (if you find a used Solo DL for $400-$500, new price for both the Solo DL and the Solo 2 DL is $699).
The most common "dedicated video system" for Rennlist users is the Solo DL/SmartyCam HD Rev2.1 (the latter being the camera, also completely compatible with the new Solo 2 DL) combination. Runs about $1766 with mounts and everything needed to plug and play. Personally, I've sold more than four hundred such combinations to RLers alone in the last four years.
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Specializing in Professional, Private Driver Performance Evaluation and Optimization
Consultation Available Remotely and at VIRginia International Raceway
01-11-2018, 05:08 PM
#4
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Agreed here too. I think the fire sales on the Solo DL are a little crazy. The data from them is very solid and more than enough for anyone to learn from. Even if you end up upgrading to a full dash later, keep the DL for friends to put in their car so you can compare. There is one on this forum for sale now. Scoop it up!
01-12-2018, 07:55 AM
#5
Many of these expensive data loggers end up being used as nothing but lap timers.
It takes a big investment in your time to learn AiM software. There's no user manual, so you have to learn the software by watching YouTube videos. If you forget how to do one little thing, good luck...you gotta find which video explained that one thing and where in the video it was explained. I've gotten really good at using AiM software, but if I had to do it all over again I would not.
Also, in my personal experience, I've had both my AiM datalogger and my Smarty Cam go out on me. I realize that this is not a common experience, but it happened to me.
Harry's lap timer is really a wonderful system. Using an external GPS, it is totally accurate. (I have tested it against a timing beacon.)
Most importantly, using Aim you cannot combine your video and data. Yes you can see G-forces, lap time, and throttle and brake sensors on the SmartyCam video, but you cannot incorporate the video into the data reply. They are two separate things.
It takes a big investment in your time to learn AiM software. There's no user manual, so you have to learn the software by watching YouTube videos. If you forget how to do one little thing, good luck...you gotta find which video explained that one thing and where in the video it was explained. I've gotten really good at using AiM software, but if I had to do it all over again I would not.
Also, in my personal experience, I've had both my AiM datalogger and my Smarty Cam go out on me. I realize that this is not a common experience, but it happened to me.
Harry's lap timer is really a wonderful system. Using an external GPS, it is totally accurate. (I have tested it against a timing beacon.)
Most importantly, using Aim you cannot combine your video and data. Yes you can see G-forces, lap time, and throttle and brake sensors on the SmartyCam video, but you cannot incorporate the video into the data reply. They are two separate things.
01-12-2018, 08:09 AM
#6
Perhaps anyone who is not a pro driver who wants to get a data logger should make a list of what things they really need. Here's my list:
Must haves:
1) lap times
2) segment timing
3) in-car video
Very nice to have but not critically important for a non pro:
1) data and video integration: you can replay your data while at the same time seeing your in-car video. So if in the data you see that you went 0.1 sec faster somewhere, you can look at the video and perhaps see what you did.
2) brake application (even better if you can see brake pressure numbers) and throttle application (as a percentage)
3) GPS track mapping: when you compare data with someone else driving your car, you can compare your lines to his/hers.
The basic things can be accomplished with Harry's lap timer, or with a Go Pro camera and an AiM Solo. If you want the other features, you have to pay a lot of money to get them. Not only that, buy you'll have to deal with systems that are potentially not reliable, and with software that is not easy to use.
One thing I really do like about AiM software is that time compare feature, which allows you to easily see where you are faster or slower than a faster reference lap. So, you can have a pro jump in you car, and then later see in what areas of the track he/she was able to gain time on you.
Have you looked into Traqmate? This system has reliability issues, but it have great data/video integration.
Must haves:
1) lap times
2) segment timing
3) in-car video
Very nice to have but not critically important for a non pro:
1) data and video integration: you can replay your data while at the same time seeing your in-car video. So if in the data you see that you went 0.1 sec faster somewhere, you can look at the video and perhaps see what you did.
2) brake application (even better if you can see brake pressure numbers) and throttle application (as a percentage)
3) GPS track mapping: when you compare data with someone else driving your car, you can compare your lines to his/hers.
The basic things can be accomplished with Harry's lap timer, or with a Go Pro camera and an AiM Solo. If you want the other features, you have to pay a lot of money to get them. Not only that, buy you'll have to deal with systems that are potentially not reliable, and with software that is not easy to use.
One thing I really do like about AiM software is that time compare feature, which allows you to easily see where you are faster or slower than a faster reference lap. So, you can have a pro jump in you car, and then later see in what areas of the track he/she was able to gain time on you.
Have you looked into Traqmate? This system has reliability issues, but it have great data/video integration.
01-12-2018, 08:42 AM
#7
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Perhaps anyone who is not a pro driver who wants to get a data logger should make a list of what things they really need. Here's my list:
Must haves:
1) lap times
2) segment timing
3) in-car video
Very nice to have but not critically important for a non pro:
1) data and video integration: you can replay your data while at the same time seeing your in-car video. So if in the data you see that you went 0.1 sec faster somewhere, you can look at the video and perhaps see what you did.
2) brake application (even better if you can see brake pressure numbers) and throttle application (as a percentage)
3) GPS track mapping: when you compare data with someone else driving your car, you can compare your lines to his/hers.
The basic things can be accomplished with Harry's lap timer, or with a Go Pro camera and an AiM Solo. If you want the other features, you have to pay a lot of money to get them. Not only that, buy you'll have to deal with systems that are potentially not reliable, and with software that is not easy to use.
One thing I really do like about AiM software is that time compare feature, which allows you to easily see where you are faster or slower than a faster reference lap. So, you can have a pro jump in you car, and then later see in what areas of the track he/she was able to gain time on you.
Have you looked into Traqmate? This system has reliability issues, but it have great data/video integration.
Must haves:
1) lap times
2) segment timing
3) in-car video
Very nice to have but not critically important for a non pro:
1) data and video integration: you can replay your data while at the same time seeing your in-car video. So if in the data you see that you went 0.1 sec faster somewhere, you can look at the video and perhaps see what you did.
2) brake application (even better if you can see brake pressure numbers) and throttle application (as a percentage)
3) GPS track mapping: when you compare data with someone else driving your car, you can compare your lines to his/hers.
The basic things can be accomplished with Harry's lap timer, or with a Go Pro camera and an AiM Solo. If you want the other features, you have to pay a lot of money to get them. Not only that, buy you'll have to deal with systems that are potentially not reliable, and with software that is not easy to use.
One thing I really do like about AiM software is that time compare feature, which allows you to easily see where you are faster or slower than a faster reference lap. So, you can have a pro jump in you car, and then later see in what areas of the track he/she was able to gain time on you.
Have you looked into Traqmate? This system has reliability issues, but it have great data/video integration.
Last things first. Glenn Stephens, the fellow that founded Traqmate in 2004, ceased manufacturing operations two and a half years ago, in 2015.
While the system was excellent, and extremely reliable when properly installed and maintained (except for the cheap video cameras at the very end), and it introduced MANY Club level Racing and HPDE drivers to a simple, easy to use data and video system, it couldn’t keep up and is now no more.
Traqmate system’s still pop up for sale used, and some replacement parts are still available, but the software hasn’t been updated since 2012 and it’s not a viable choice for people looking. I still use it and like it for some things no other systems can do.
The OP hit on the MAIN differentiator when picking a data system, whether or not one (eventually) wants to go to a instrument cluster replacement, a “display/logger.” About half or more Club level drivers don’t, and most Track Day/DE Drivers dont, but if one DOES eventually want to go there, the choices are AiM and MoTeC, in my experience.
If a driver is looking for the three things you point out as being most important, that opens it up to a LOT more choices, some you’ve pointed out and some I think are just superb, and easier to use, less complicated and just as robust as MoTeC or AiM.
I have sold the MOST AiM Solo DL/SmartyCam combos to former users of Harry’s, RaceChrono, Porsche Precision Track App, Track Attack and those that chose, for a time, to go through the lengthy process of using third party software to combine GoPro or other raw video with raw data from QStarz, Solo’s and other simple loggers.
I’ve sold the most VBOX Video systems to people frustrated with the lack of video integration into the AiM Analysis software and steep learning curve of the software. Most people NEVER use 1% of what AiM Race Studio Analysis is capable of, and VBOX’s Circuit Tools 2 is much easier, much more intuitive and very reliable. Plus, the side by side video comparison between drivers, laps and even different cars helps people “find time” the quickest, in my experience.
I sell little MoTeC, but it’s the most configurable/powerful and the prices for a Club level system have recently fallen, now not much more than AiM. Just no good video solution unless you buy Pro Logging enables option code and hook up an AiM SmartyCam to write the information from the MoTeC into the video, real time. You pay your money and you make your choice.
Again, ALL good systems show the lap time delta in the car. Most now get throttle and brake information from the modern cars without sensor installation. Traqmate NEVER did that in a way it could be used, in analysis or in video.
In my opinion, intelligent video, video with information in it for immediate review, is the MOST important. I carry five lines, because I don’t think there’s ONE best choice for particular needs and desiresx Your list of three needs being a good starting point and all of these systems have that.
I can say that the NUMBER ONE benefit of current offerings from all makes, is that they’re WAY more reliable and easy to use than in the even recent past.
i don’t care what people use. HLT to MoTeC PLUS Video VBOX multi camera systems (which pro teams use together), just as long as people use SOMETHING!
Last edited by ProCoach; 01-12-2018 at 09:36 AM.
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01-12-2018, 09:32 AM
#8
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
And there in lies (potentially) and issue for me with the Solo DL.... do you know if my 99 C2 is a compatible match?
01-12-2018, 09:43 AM
#9
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That said, I have a fair number of people that use the older Solo DL and SmartyCam on cars that don’t even have an ECU. The pairing works well enough together, and in a completely automated and easy way, that there’s plenty of value even without a connection to the car. The camera can even see the tach on the dash, your right knee, to see what’s going on in a basic way.
Traqmate sold tens of thousands of units without that information from the car, and most got enough information from the system to self coach for a decade. Same with the Solo DL/SCHD combo. Be glad to fill you in how that is done, offline if you wish.