Cosworth... Better get use to it
#16
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not sure if this is the right place for this cosworth question, as its really a 991 cup car data question...
was speaking to someone about 991 cup today and they mirrored much of what has been said up here. cosworth is very intricate, details, lots you can do. but for some of the club racers, perhaps its overkill.
one shop i was speaking to who does a bunch of imsa racing was saying they actually put other data loggers in the car, that there is a "motec 4k$ kind of dash that they put in the cars" so that its simply using what they know, can tie into previous data, etc" plus then you can use gps lap timing/beacons vs the cosworth beacons.
so thats the basis of my question...is anyone really doing this? what are people putting in these 991 cups fi they are putting in secondary dashes, etc. which dash? how are they connecting it?
anyone have a photo of all that if you've seen it?
this one person was talking about putting an AIM MXS dash in the cup, toss a beacon in the windscreen and you have simple easy to deal with GPS stuff, lap timing, and simple data analysis which for this person owuld make sense. sounded like a good plan.
he was trying to figure out how to do this physically, where on the dash it shoudl go...and how to maintain his smartycam which he already has with the bosch connector per the previous post herein.
thoughts? ideas?
was speaking to someone about 991 cup today and they mirrored much of what has been said up here. cosworth is very intricate, details, lots you can do. but for some of the club racers, perhaps its overkill.
one shop i was speaking to who does a bunch of imsa racing was saying they actually put other data loggers in the car, that there is a "motec 4k$ kind of dash that they put in the cars" so that its simply using what they know, can tie into previous data, etc" plus then you can use gps lap timing/beacons vs the cosworth beacons.
so thats the basis of my question...is anyone really doing this? what are people putting in these 991 cups fi they are putting in secondary dashes, etc. which dash? how are they connecting it?
anyone have a photo of all that if you've seen it?
this one person was talking about putting an AIM MXS dash in the cup, toss a beacon in the windscreen and you have simple easy to deal with GPS stuff, lap timing, and simple data analysis which for this person owuld make sense. sounded like a good plan.
he was trying to figure out how to do this physically, where on the dash it shoudl go...and how to maintain his smartycam which he already has with the bosch connector per the previous post herein.
thoughts? ideas?
The 991.1 Cup has been out long enough for folks to use a lot of different alternate and additional solutions. The most common MoTeC add-on is an L120 "blind logger," one without a dash. There are four CAN networks in the car and one has chassis information (brakes, steering, wheel speeds, etc) and one has ECU data (the one recommended for use by AiM off the C50 connector, throttle, RPM, that's about it). A protocol can be written for the MoTeC to get the information and some teams find this more valuable as you point out for comparison to historical data, manipulating the way the information is displayed, to get better GPS mapping for track position, lap timing, lap count and fuel consumption, et cetera.
I would think that the person putting in an AiM MXS would be better served using an EVO5/GS-Dash for supplemental logging, lap time and plus/minus real time driver information feedback. Smaller logger size, smaller but highly visible and compact display, but most of all, DRIVER USABLE and serviceable. A system that can be managed easily by a driver, not requiring a team or expensive unlock codes. Because the GPS information, power and everything else can be sent to the camera, I would NOT recommend continuing to use the C50 connection with an ECU Bridge and an antenna when you can do more with one cable from any AiM logger and the SmartyCam. The latest version of the AiM loggers (including the MXx series and the EVO4S/5) can even have custom CAN protocols to get the same information the Cosworth logger gets collected through the two wire connection, if you want to do the work.
Most folks with 991.1 and 991.2 GT3 Cup cars are looking for a video solution, with any analysis software biased towards the kind of simplicity that would allow self-coaching, like the AiM.
The choices for this include Cosworth's video solution, which I have not seen in the wild, AiM SmartyCam HD, ECU Bridge and GPS antenna, and finally, the Video VBOX HD2, which is used by Porsche for testing and validation at the factory and in several other National Cup series for incident review and simple compliance testing. Greg Fordahl, Les Long, David Moore and I have sold these systems to a number of 991.1 Cup and now 991.2 Cup drivers and teams. They're really good, really simple and pretty seamless in their integration.
Contact me if I can help further.
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I was with MoTeC Joe today talking about this. He has the CAN protocol to do all of this into a MoTeC logger. I think he's done most of setups that are out there.
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Problem is, most people are looking for an integrated video solution, one better and more full featured than a SmartyCam. And that’s not present in the MoTeC. I have seen less than a handful of MoTeC loggers in the late cars. I’ve see about a dozen SmartyCams and about two dozen HD2 systems in the thirty-five late cars I’m familiar with or have supplied. YMMV.
#19
Three Wheelin'
so a few more cosworth questions since this seems to be a good thread for cosworth cup car brainteasers.
1. what motec dash/logger is being recommended if someone wanted to find a way to stay with motec data? many, myself included have historical data in motec or aim, not cosworth. secondly, and maybe im lazy or lacking patience but i find AIM very easy, motec more complicated and (atleast in the past) find cosworth very complicated in terms of yanking the data that a dedicated club/mid level imsa cup gent would desire.
sometimes, data discussion and analysis can drive headaches, since a lot of time you may not have reference data to which to compare in which case data for me is about finding hiccups, wheel lockup, where shifting earlier or later helped, etc. but frankly, ALL those systems AIm, motec and i presume cosworth do a good job.
for those who are familiar with the cosworth...which app is their app for connecting to the dash, loading/tweaking configs (if you can, i thought i had read that imsa cars can not, only 1 config??)
alarms , shift lights, etc.
i was reading about a qualifying mode for display and ill try reading more on it. alarms are nice when something is off, but outside that, im not sure i spend really any time being capable of taking in too much on-screen data. the one bit i do like is forecasted /estimate laps , +/- in lap times, which is critical in qualifying.
Motec used to demand the beacon transmitter. then went gps, i had mixed experience with GPS. and you had to load reference laps, then i think they auto updated the reference lap.
AIM is basically flawless GPS . pretty solid lap times, estimated, good with that it presents though compared to motec far more simplistic.
how do the 991 cups handle beacons, lap times, forecasting laps? hard beacon? GPS? what do those options run? permissible on the IMSA cars?
figured id ask.
and why did porsche leave motec? it was pretty advanced stuff and in some areas may be more advanced, etc and they had so many years of motec and motec data, support.
1. what motec dash/logger is being recommended if someone wanted to find a way to stay with motec data? many, myself included have historical data in motec or aim, not cosworth. secondly, and maybe im lazy or lacking patience but i find AIM very easy, motec more complicated and (atleast in the past) find cosworth very complicated in terms of yanking the data that a dedicated club/mid level imsa cup gent would desire.
sometimes, data discussion and analysis can drive headaches, since a lot of time you may not have reference data to which to compare in which case data for me is about finding hiccups, wheel lockup, where shifting earlier or later helped, etc. but frankly, ALL those systems AIm, motec and i presume cosworth do a good job.
for those who are familiar with the cosworth...which app is their app for connecting to the dash, loading/tweaking configs (if you can, i thought i had read that imsa cars can not, only 1 config??)
alarms , shift lights, etc.
i was reading about a qualifying mode for display and ill try reading more on it. alarms are nice when something is off, but outside that, im not sure i spend really any time being capable of taking in too much on-screen data. the one bit i do like is forecasted /estimate laps , +/- in lap times, which is critical in qualifying.
Motec used to demand the beacon transmitter. then went gps, i had mixed experience with GPS. and you had to load reference laps, then i think they auto updated the reference lap.
AIM is basically flawless GPS . pretty solid lap times, estimated, good with that it presents though compared to motec far more simplistic.
how do the 991 cups handle beacons, lap times, forecasting laps? hard beacon? GPS? what do those options run? permissible on the IMSA cars?
figured id ask.
and why did porsche leave motec? it was pretty advanced stuff and in some areas may be more advanced, etc and they had so many years of motec and motec data, support.
#20
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so a few more cosworth questions since this seems to be a good thread for cosworth cup car brainteasers.
1. what motec dash/logger is being recommended if someone wanted to find a way to stay with motec data? many, myself included have historical data in motec or aim, not cosworth. secondly, and maybe im lazy or lacking patience but i find AIM very easy, motec more complicated and (atleast in the past) find cosworth very complicated in terms of yanking the data that a dedicated club/mid level imsa cup gent would desire.
sometimes, data discussion and analysis can drive headaches, since a lot of time you may not have reference data to which to compare in which case data for me is about finding hiccups, wheel lockup, where shifting earlier or later helped, etc. but frankly, ALL those systems AIm, motec and i presume cosworth do a good job.
for those who are familiar with the cosworth...which app is their app for connecting to the dash, loading/tweaking configs (if you can, i thought i had read that imsa cars can not, only 1 config??)
alarms , shift lights, etc.
i was reading about a qualifying mode for display and ill try reading more on it. alarms are nice when something is off, but outside that, im not sure i spend really any time being capable of taking in too much on-screen data. the one bit i do like is forecasted /estimate laps , +/- in lap times, which is critical in qualifying.
Motec used to demand the beacon transmitter. then went gps, i had mixed experience with GPS. and you had to load reference laps, then i think they auto updated the reference lap.
AIM is basically flawless GPS . pretty solid lap times, estimated, good with that it presents though compared to motec far more simplistic.
how do the 991 cups handle beacons, lap times, forecasting laps? hard beacon? GPS? what do those options run? permissible on the IMSA cars?
figured id ask.
and why did porsche leave motec? it was pretty advanced stuff and in some areas may be more advanced, etc and they had so many years of motec and motec data, support.
1. what motec dash/logger is being recommended if someone wanted to find a way to stay with motec data? many, myself included have historical data in motec or aim, not cosworth. secondly, and maybe im lazy or lacking patience but i find AIM very easy, motec more complicated and (atleast in the past) find cosworth very complicated in terms of yanking the data that a dedicated club/mid level imsa cup gent would desire.
sometimes, data discussion and analysis can drive headaches, since a lot of time you may not have reference data to which to compare in which case data for me is about finding hiccups, wheel lockup, where shifting earlier or later helped, etc. but frankly, ALL those systems AIm, motec and i presume cosworth do a good job.
for those who are familiar with the cosworth...which app is their app for connecting to the dash, loading/tweaking configs (if you can, i thought i had read that imsa cars can not, only 1 config??)
alarms , shift lights, etc.
i was reading about a qualifying mode for display and ill try reading more on it. alarms are nice when something is off, but outside that, im not sure i spend really any time being capable of taking in too much on-screen data. the one bit i do like is forecasted /estimate laps , +/- in lap times, which is critical in qualifying.
Motec used to demand the beacon transmitter. then went gps, i had mixed experience with GPS. and you had to load reference laps, then i think they auto updated the reference lap.
AIM is basically flawless GPS . pretty solid lap times, estimated, good with that it presents though compared to motec far more simplistic.
how do the 991 cups handle beacons, lap times, forecasting laps? hard beacon? GPS? what do those options run? permissible on the IMSA cars?
figured id ask.
and why did porsche leave motec? it was pretty advanced stuff and in some areas may be more advanced, etc and they had so many years of motec and motec data, support.
I think to get MoTeC data, any of their loggers would work. I've seen one pro team use an L120 (the new EDL) which can be expanded with a display but in this case, not.
In the IMSA series, I don't think you're allowed to have another logger installed, at least for the race weekends. The configuration of the Cosworth is locked. The beacon is standard, the GPS is an unlock code and a small piece of hardware, IIRC. They really lock it down, like they used to with MoTeC. The video is now an extra cost option from PMNA by Cosworth, it's a hardware package and an unlock code for the software. I've got the bulletins somewhere, just not at home right now.
If you're up for it, a C125 would be plenty for most all high level club guys and even teams. The least expensive is the CDL3 display logger, and could be integrated for the same or less than an AiM MXx display logger. Save work, buy the config from Joe and you'd be set.
Sort of a shame PMNA left MoTeC, but a multinational decision and collaboration (read:money)between Porsche and Cosworth, I think.
Joe is the one to thank because it was he that really showed everyone how good and powerful MoTeC is, and sold Porsche on the idea of adopting MoTeC when the 997.1 GT3 Cup came out. He's the man!
Perhaps viperbob can talk about the particulars of Cosworth, prices and options, but I like Toolbox and am familiar with it from years past I think the Cosworth is a Lite version.
For AiM, and what you're looking for, the least expensive, most compact and tidy option is an EVO4S and a GS-Dash. Auto on/auto off, auto track selection, auto lap times and auto predictive lap in two different ways, plus you can write your own CAN template (or have someone else do it) to "talk" to the 991.1 Cup an get the Cosworth information.
#21
Drifting
Very insightful thread and must admit it's a bit overwhelming with all the options and the complexities of integrating it all.
Does the Cosworth system offer GPS, can't count the number of times I left my beacon behind with earlier lap timing system.
Any suggestions on a local expert for install for some of these options in the Central NJ area? I have a 991.1 Cup arriving this week.
Thanks to all for taking the time to share their insights in this thread, very helpful for the technology challenged.
Does the Cosworth system offer GPS, can't count the number of times I left my beacon behind with earlier lap timing system.
Any suggestions on a local expert for install for some of these options in the Central NJ area? I have a 991.1 Cup arriving this week.
Thanks to all for taking the time to share their insights in this thread, very helpful for the technology challenged.
#22
for those who are familiar with the cosworth...which app is their app for connecting to the dash, loading/tweaking configs (if you can, i thought i had read that imsa cars can not, only 1 config??)
alarms , shift lights, etc.
i was reading about a qualifying mode for display and ill try reading more on it. alarms are nice when something is off, but outside that, im not sure i spend really any time being capable of taking in too much on-screen data. the one bit i do like is forecasted /estimate laps , +/- in lap times, which is critical in qualifying.
Motec used to demand the beacon transmitter. then went gps, i had mixed experience with GPS. and you had to load reference laps, then i think they auto updated the reference lap.
AIM is basically flawless GPS . pretty solid lap times, estimated, good with that it presents though compared to motec far more simplistic.
how do the 991 cups handle beacons, lap times, forecasting laps? hard beacon? GPS? what do those options run? permissible on the IMSA cars?
figured id ask.
and why did porsche leave motec? it was pretty advanced stuff and in some areas may be more advanced, etc and they had so many years of motec and motec data, support.
alarms , shift lights, etc.
i was reading about a qualifying mode for display and ill try reading more on it. alarms are nice when something is off, but outside that, im not sure i spend really any time being capable of taking in too much on-screen data. the one bit i do like is forecasted /estimate laps , +/- in lap times, which is critical in qualifying.
Motec used to demand the beacon transmitter. then went gps, i had mixed experience with GPS. and you had to load reference laps, then i think they auto updated the reference lap.
AIM is basically flawless GPS . pretty solid lap times, estimated, good with that it presents though compared to motec far more simplistic.
how do the 991 cups handle beacons, lap times, forecasting laps? hard beacon? GPS? what do those options run? permissible on the IMSA cars?
figured id ask.
and why did porsche leave motec? it was pretty advanced stuff and in some areas may be more advanced, etc and they had so many years of motec and motec data, support.
quali mode is under "actions" tab in toolset after the ICD is talkign to toolset
cup cars racing in the imsa series run a specific icd config provided by PMNA. to my understanding, having a predictive is allowed.
we've always used the beacon with the gen2.
#23
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
991.1 does not have GPS. I spoke to the Cosworth guys and they say you cant use it with the Porsche implementation. On the .2 cars you can install it.
#24
Three Wheelin'
so lets say someone wanted to use AIM to add video simply to the 991 cups. am i correct its just like the 997s used to be there is an junction box/adapter that connects to the bosch pigtail coming off the ECU, and then from that box, you run the aim cable to the smartycam so that some of the ECU data flows to the camera...??
when you configure that , is that box something which is configurable? that is, when you connect your usb cable to the camera, and you use RaceStudio3 to configure the camera, where do you configure the data/values that the camera is pulling from that ecu bridge. thats the word i think they used to call it, a bridge do you configure the camera, or do you connect to the bridge as a device, configure it to transmit certain values?
and isnt there just a simple can connector right under the dash panel, athleast i thought the older cups had such a connector inside the cockpit under the dash, why not just connect there and send can data to the camera with that?
when you configure that , is that box something which is configurable? that is, when you connect your usb cable to the camera, and you use RaceStudio3 to configure the camera, where do you configure the data/values that the camera is pulling from that ecu bridge. thats the word i think they used to call it, a bridge do you configure the camera, or do you connect to the bridge as a device, configure it to transmit certain values?
and isnt there just a simple can connector right under the dash panel, athleast i thought the older cups had such a connector inside the cockpit under the dash, why not just connect there and send can data to the camera with that?
#25
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so lets say someone wanted to use AIM to add video simply to the 991 cups. am i correct its just like the 997s used to be there is an junction box/adapter that connects to the bosch pigtail coming off the ECU, and then from that box, you run the aim cable to the smartycam so that some of the ECU data flows to the camera...??
when you configure that , is that box something which is configurable? that is, when you connect your usb cable to the camera, and you use RaceStudio3 to configure the camera, where do you configure the data/values that the camera is pulling from that ecu bridge. thats the word i think they used to call it, a bridge do you configure the camera, or do you connect to the bridge as a device, configure it to transmit certain values?
and isnt there just a simple can connector right under the dash panel, athleast i thought the older cups had such a connector inside the cockpit under the dash, why not just connect there and send can data to the camera with that?
when you configure that , is that box something which is configurable? that is, when you connect your usb cable to the camera, and you use RaceStudio3 to configure the camera, where do you configure the data/values that the camera is pulling from that ecu bridge. thats the word i think they used to call it, a bridge do you configure the camera, or do you connect to the bridge as a device, configure it to transmit certain values?
and isnt there just a simple can connector right under the dash panel, athleast i thought the older cups had such a connector inside the cockpit under the dash, why not just connect there and send can data to the camera with that?
AiM ECU Bridge, GPS-08B antenna, camera and mount are all that are required to add video with RPM, throttle position, lap count, lap time, track map, best lap number, best lap time, day and date, g’s and friction circle shown on the video. Connection is near where it was on the 997 Cup, passenger side C-pillar, Bosch C50 Autosport connector.
Video VBOX one or two camera. Data and video. Connected to Option 3 (IIRC) connector right side of center console for power and ground, and VCI (CAN info), one cable for all. Comes with everything to make the connection and get USABLE info. Shows RPM, throttle position, brake pressure, steering angle and everything else that AiM does, plus simple analysis, sector comparisons, ideal lap and side by side video.
Jerry, Joe or I can help with AiM (we’ve all done it) and I can help with VBOX.
I struggled with the VBOX installs until I discovered last week in Cosworth class that you have to tell the Dash to send this information TO the VBOX. It’s the system used in several PCC series around the world and by many teams in the US.
#26
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
We installed a couple Smartycams in our first 991s. Worked fine but limited data through the bridge. We plan to install a VBOX here in the near future.
#27
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#28
Three Wheelin'
so, snapped into the 991 cup today. here are the list of issues i ran into none of which were end of game matters, but not as comfy as motec:
1. using the thumbrive provide with the 3ring binder, etc. from pmna, on it were instructions for installing software. got the bosch drivers installed, when runnign the package install it was in german, oh the joy, and about 2/3 in , it would hang on windrab component. so i started again and deselected windrab and it seemed to install though with some kid of errors ,but, i dont read german. copied the license file to the right spot and 3d file for the racecon config.
connected the MSAII cable to the car, laptop and it seemed to hook up. if i hit the Play> button, you'd see the live measures which is about all i would use bosch/racecon for , or with these imsa cups si there any other value in that bosch/racecon? pitland speed? clearing errors?
im on a windows 10 machine, maybe thats what it didnt seem to like since somewhere i saw german german german Win XP . funny thing, WinXP is WINXP in german as well!!<G>
2. then installed the cosworth. that went without flaw. got connected, got the lan cable configured and connecting. and i was able to get into the Race mode and the screens, etc.
super confusing. like insane.
saw the Quali mode there on the tabso nth left, which probably would be the only thing id contemplate tweaking but even then seems like nothingto really tweak. self learns, no?
is there stuff i want to be doing daily, per session, once in a blue moon in that Toolset software? i presume downloading session data is probably the #1 thing folks do. anything else??
and lastly the big one....all the values on the dash were in metric, bar, Kilos/hour, celcius etc. any way to get those values displaying in MPH, PSI, F.... is there a setting for that or do i have to modify the display?
1. using the thumbrive provide with the 3ring binder, etc. from pmna, on it were instructions for installing software. got the bosch drivers installed, when runnign the package install it was in german, oh the joy, and about 2/3 in , it would hang on windrab component. so i started again and deselected windrab and it seemed to install though with some kid of errors ,but, i dont read german. copied the license file to the right spot and 3d file for the racecon config.
connected the MSAII cable to the car, laptop and it seemed to hook up. if i hit the Play> button, you'd see the live measures which is about all i would use bosch/racecon for , or with these imsa cups si there any other value in that bosch/racecon? pitland speed? clearing errors?
im on a windows 10 machine, maybe thats what it didnt seem to like since somewhere i saw german german german Win XP . funny thing, WinXP is WINXP in german as well!!<G>
2. then installed the cosworth. that went without flaw. got connected, got the lan cable configured and connecting. and i was able to get into the Race mode and the screens, etc.
super confusing. like insane.
saw the Quali mode there on the tabso nth left, which probably would be the only thing id contemplate tweaking but even then seems like nothingto really tweak. self learns, no?
is there stuff i want to be doing daily, per session, once in a blue moon in that Toolset software? i presume downloading session data is probably the #1 thing folks do. anything else??
and lastly the big one....all the values on the dash were in metric, bar, Kilos/hour, celcius etc. any way to get those values displaying in MPH, PSI, F.... is there a setting for that or do i have to modify the display?
#29
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Here's your first stop. http://support.cosworth.com/?forum=422867
If all else fails, try this: http://www.cosworth.com/downloads/po...quest-support/
The Toolset software is like Dash Manager. Change config, units of measure, download data, clear memory.
The Toobox software is like i2 Standard.
If all else fails, try this: http://www.cosworth.com/downloads/po...quest-support/
The Toolset software is like Dash Manager. Change config, units of measure, download data, clear memory.
The Toobox software is like i2 Standard.
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Good Toolbox tips here: http://support.cosworth.com/?forum=422876
Quickstart guide here: http://www.cosworth.com/media/457738...tart_guide.pdf
Quickstart guide here: http://www.cosworth.com/media/457738...tart_guide.pdf