EPA adds Diesel Cayenne to Out of Spec Cars
11-05-2015, 02:51 PM
#91
Nordschleife Master
I don't see why it is ok for corporations to cheat consumers and the government with things like this. People seem to be defending VW in a hostile manner and getting upset at the EPA. No major world leader is defending the shenanigans of VW in all the emissions issues. This is way bigger than the EPA. They cheated, and who knows what else they have cheated consumers on. They deliberately cheated and hid things. It is wrong. I can't believe this fine company has done this. Think of all the innocent consumers and the innocent workers who are going to suffer financial loss because of the cheating. It is terrible.
I am not sure how they will recover, but if they go bankrupt, it will be their own doing. Too bad, since they make great cars.
I am not sure how they will recover, but if they go bankrupt, it will be their own doing. Too bad, since they make great cars.
11-05-2015, 03:01 PM
#92
Burning Brakes
I asked this a while back and got no response...is it a given that the affected engines can, in fact, be modified to meet EPA and CARB (California) standards? Does anyone know what the reduction in power or mileage will be.
11-05-2015, 03:31 PM
#93
My guess is that they'll get a relatively small fine (e.g. nothing that would really make a dent) over the urea based systems. The 4cyls without urea, however, I expect that not only will there be a sizable fine (still nothing compared to the $18b that's been quoted), but they also be required to do something to bring them more in line with the industry norms (e.g. not meeting the regs, but in the 10% over ballpark).
11-05-2015, 04:56 PM
#94
Umm, a couple of things for everyone saying that the regulations are too strict.
1. Without these regulations we would all still be getting 9 MPG.
2. Its not an issue of technically impossible regulations, its manufacturers unwilling to spend the money to meet them.
Crying that its too expensive is far different than its not possible.
1. Without these regulations we would all still be getting 9 MPG.
2. Its not an issue of technically impossible regulations, its manufacturers unwilling to spend the money to meet them.
Crying that its too expensive is far different than its not possible.
11-05-2015, 05:35 PM
#95
I have seen no one in these threads (though there are so many I've stopped trying to follow them all) claim that no regulations isn't the answer. Regulations are obviously needed or (as they have done in the past) companies will run amok and ignore the consequences of their actions that do not have a direct impact on them.
The issue is if they have gone too far with their regulations or if specific regulations make any sense.
A regulation on NOx output is absolutely needed. The problem is two fold though. Firstly they are focused on NOx producers (cars) that even at the peak of their polluting days were not worth talking about compared to other sources of NOx pollution. Secondly, the level of the regulation values is also absurdly low to the level of the 40x over would require you to stick your face in the exhaust for an extended period of time (at which point wether or not the NOx causes cancer is going to be the least of your problems) to be a problem.
Yes and no. The reality is that as long as we are using combustion and fossil fuels, bad things will be produced There is no way around that. Much of the EPA regulation changes over the last decade are clearly moving towards requiring that to actually be possible.
Because it's not physically possible for combustion of fossil fuels to not generate pollutants the manufacturers then have to come up with convoluted post combustion systems to try to capture the bad stuff from the exhaust. The problems with this are many but the big one is that they actually require the vehicle to burn more fuel (both because the systems require the extra fuel burn and also due to the extra weight of the car). Then on the consumer side you are hit with the inflated price of the extra equipment and R&D, the additional cost of fuel (yes MPG is going up in general, but it could still be higher without this stuff), and the cost of repairs when these systems fail.
The problem is that it is not feasibly possible at this time to meet the size and performance requirements of the customer while also meeting all the various safety, emissions, and MPG regulations. That's why motors continue to get bigger and produce more power, they have ever more weight to push around.
Until we have a viable alternative to combustion of fossil fuels that can be built at a price the average person can afford we either have to recognize the EPA has gone off the deep end or people need to accept cars that drive like a non-turbo diesel.
Car manufactures should absolutely be making best effort attempts to have their engines run as cleanly and efficiently as possible and that is my gripe with VAG over their 4cyl mess since they didn't even try. If we really want to make a dent in pollutants though we need to focus on the areas where it is a problem at a locality/world damaging level. That means focusing on things like manufacturing, power generation, and developing nations that aren't thinking/caring about the future in the race to catch up.
The issue is if they have gone too far with their regulations or if specific regulations make any sense.
A regulation on NOx output is absolutely needed. The problem is two fold though. Firstly they are focused on NOx producers (cars) that even at the peak of their polluting days were not worth talking about compared to other sources of NOx pollution. Secondly, the level of the regulation values is also absurdly low to the level of the 40x over would require you to stick your face in the exhaust for an extended period of time (at which point wether or not the NOx causes cancer is going to be the least of your problems) to be a problem.
2. Its not an issue of technically impossible regulations, its manufacturers unwilling to spend the money to meet them.
Because it's not physically possible for combustion of fossil fuels to not generate pollutants the manufacturers then have to come up with convoluted post combustion systems to try to capture the bad stuff from the exhaust. The problems with this are many but the big one is that they actually require the vehicle to burn more fuel (both because the systems require the extra fuel burn and also due to the extra weight of the car). Then on the consumer side you are hit with the inflated price of the extra equipment and R&D, the additional cost of fuel (yes MPG is going up in general, but it could still be higher without this stuff), and the cost of repairs when these systems fail.
Crying that its too expensive is far different than its not possible.
Until we have a viable alternative to combustion of fossil fuels that can be built at a price the average person can afford we either have to recognize the EPA has gone off the deep end or people need to accept cars that drive like a non-turbo diesel.
Car manufactures should absolutely be making best effort attempts to have their engines run as cleanly and efficiently as possible and that is my gripe with VAG over their 4cyl mess since they didn't even try. If we really want to make a dent in pollutants though we need to focus on the areas where it is a problem at a locality/world damaging level. That means focusing on things like manufacturing, power generation, and developing nations that aren't thinking/caring about the future in the race to catch up.
11-05-2015, 06:42 PM
#96
Burning Brakes
I don't see why it is ok for corporations to cheat consumers and the government with things like this. People seem to be defending VW in a hostile manner and getting upset at the EPA.
Nobody's defending VW. Stop clutching your pearls, reflexively defending Holy Mother Government.
The difference between the EPA and VW is that EPA personnel are unfireable. And have less talent.
11-05-2015, 06:52 PM
#97
Drifting
Exactly. How did it get to the point where government agencies can make regulations with very little to no credible evidence that they are needed, effective or have the desired outcome, and no matter how bad things are nobody is responsible. It all started out with noble ideas and goals and once those are in effect and working, a govt agency grows and creeps into more and more, reaching for ever more into things that may remotely be seen to have something to do with the original mandate. Of course that needs more and more people and more and more money. An insatiable monster is created.
11-05-2015, 09:34 PM
#98
Nordschleife Master
I have seen no one in these threads (though there are so many I've stopped trying to follow them all) claim that no regulations isn't the answer. Regulations are obviously needed or (as they have done in the past) companies will run amok and ignore the consequences of their actions that do not have a direct impact on them.
The issue is if they have gone too far with their regulations or if specific regulations make any sense.
A regulation on NOx output is absolutely needed. The problem is two fold though. Firstly they are focused on NOx producers (cars) that even at the peak of their polluting days were not worth talking about compared to other sources of NOx pollution. Secondly, the level of the regulation values is also absurdly low to the level of the 40x over would require you to stick your face in the exhaust for an extended period of time (at which point wether or not the NOx causes cancer is going to be the least of your problems) to be a problem.
Yes and no. The reality is that as long as we are using combustion and fossil fuels, bad things will be produced There is no way around that. Much of the EPA regulation changes over the last decade are clearly moving towards requiring that to actually be possible.
Because it's not physically possible for combustion of fossil fuels to not generate pollutants the manufacturers then have to come up with convoluted post combustion systems to try to capture the bad stuff from the exhaust. The problems with this are many but the big one is that they actually require the vehicle to burn more fuel (both because the systems require the extra fuel burn and also due to the extra weight of the car). Then on the consumer side you are hit with the inflated price of the extra equipment and R&D, the additional cost of fuel (yes MPG is going up in general, but it could still be higher without this stuff), and the cost of repairs when these systems fail.
The problem is that it is not feasibly possible at this time to meet the size and performance requirements of the customer while also meeting all the various safety, emissions, and MPG regulations. That's why motors continue to get bigger and produce more power, they have ever more weight to push around.
Until we have a viable alternative to combustion of fossil fuels that can be built at a price the average person can afford we either have to recognize the EPA has gone off the deep end or people need to accept cars that drive like a non-turbo diesel.
Car manufactures should absolutely be making best effort attempts to have their engines run as cleanly and efficiently as possible and that is my gripe with VAG over their 4cyl mess since they didn't even try. If we really want to make a dent in pollutants though we need to focus on the areas where it is a problem at a locality/world damaging level. That means focusing on things like manufacturing, power generation, and developing nations that aren't thinking/caring about the future in the race to catch up.
The issue is if they have gone too far with their regulations or if specific regulations make any sense.
A regulation on NOx output is absolutely needed. The problem is two fold though. Firstly they are focused on NOx producers (cars) that even at the peak of their polluting days were not worth talking about compared to other sources of NOx pollution. Secondly, the level of the regulation values is also absurdly low to the level of the 40x over would require you to stick your face in the exhaust for an extended period of time (at which point wether or not the NOx causes cancer is going to be the least of your problems) to be a problem.
Yes and no. The reality is that as long as we are using combustion and fossil fuels, bad things will be produced There is no way around that. Much of the EPA regulation changes over the last decade are clearly moving towards requiring that to actually be possible.
Because it's not physically possible for combustion of fossil fuels to not generate pollutants the manufacturers then have to come up with convoluted post combustion systems to try to capture the bad stuff from the exhaust. The problems with this are many but the big one is that they actually require the vehicle to burn more fuel (both because the systems require the extra fuel burn and also due to the extra weight of the car). Then on the consumer side you are hit with the inflated price of the extra equipment and R&D, the additional cost of fuel (yes MPG is going up in general, but it could still be higher without this stuff), and the cost of repairs when these systems fail.
The problem is that it is not feasibly possible at this time to meet the size and performance requirements of the customer while also meeting all the various safety, emissions, and MPG regulations. That's why motors continue to get bigger and produce more power, they have ever more weight to push around.
Until we have a viable alternative to combustion of fossil fuels that can be built at a price the average person can afford we either have to recognize the EPA has gone off the deep end or people need to accept cars that drive like a non-turbo diesel.
Car manufactures should absolutely be making best effort attempts to have their engines run as cleanly and efficiently as possible and that is my gripe with VAG over their 4cyl mess since they didn't even try. If we really want to make a dent in pollutants though we need to focus on the areas where it is a problem at a locality/world damaging level. That means focusing on things like manufacturing, power generation, and developing nations that aren't thinking/caring about the future in the race to catch up.
Oil products make the world move and not only as it refers to automotive motion. Gasoline is a plentiful, wonderful fuel, and with today's combustion controls produces negligible tail pipe pollution. All the rest is politics.
11-05-2015, 09:36 PM
#99
Nordschleife Master
Exactly. How did it get to the point where government agencies can make regulations with very little to no credible evidence that they are needed, effective or have the desired outcome, and no matter how bad things are nobody is responsible. It all started out with noble ideas and goals and once those are in effect and working, a govt agency grows and creeps into more and more, reaching for ever more into things that may remotely be seen to have something to do with the original mandate. Of course that needs more and more people and more and more money. An insatiable monster is created.
Having said that, yes the EPA has a role, just not the overpowering dominating role it has now.
11-05-2015, 10:51 PM
#100
Instructor
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I still don't know why people here have to be so derogatory to the others who point out that VW has cheated us. The EPA is only in one country - VW cheated people worldwide. Not even in their own country (where they create jobs) have they been given a pass on this. Let;s face it - it is absolutely dishonest to put in software or cheat on emissions.
VW has cheated the public and tarnished their brand. Now they are tarnishing porsche. It is a travesty.
Love the cars. Always will. Strongly considered a panamera and a cayenne to replace my 911. Nevertheless it is terrible what they have done.
Whether the rules are arcane or not, pr whether the EPA is a good or bad agency, who cares? We are a nation of laws and VW appears to be breaking them, and they have admitted their own fraud already.
I wish they were as outstanding as their brand porsche is outstanding. but they aren't, and I hope they don't declare bankruptcy, though they deserve it to be honest if they truly have cheated this many people.
VW has cheated the public and tarnished their brand. Now they are tarnishing porsche. It is a travesty.
Love the cars. Always will. Strongly considered a panamera and a cayenne to replace my 911. Nevertheless it is terrible what they have done.
Whether the rules are arcane or not, pr whether the EPA is a good or bad agency, who cares? We are a nation of laws and VW appears to be breaking them, and they have admitted their own fraud already.
I wish they were as outstanding as their brand porsche is outstanding. but they aren't, and I hope they don't declare bankruptcy, though they deserve it to be honest if they truly have cheated this many people.
11-05-2015, 11:29 PM
#101
)We are derogatory towards YOU because you made a baseless and inaccurate claim that VW is harming the environment in some gross and negligent way that they should be punished for. Then rather than just be misinformed and learn something you then not only showed your ignorance by stating you had no facts, but you then proved your basic lack of intelligence and reasoning ability by being proud of that ignorance and being unwilling to do some research.
Now rather than either admit your mistake and learn from it or not and just walking away you start crying about how the big bad internet bullies don't like you and make more inaccurate claims about what we are railing against.
It just boggles my mind how people that are capable of putting themselves in a position to own a 911 can be so ignorant and unwilling to improve themselves.
Either join us in a logical and reasoned discussion or go cry in your beer about how mean the internet bullies are. Either way, knock off the inaccurate accusations.
11-05-2015, 11:53 PM
#103
Nordschleife Master
11-06-2015, 12:08 AM
#104
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http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...diesel-exhaust
decent article that is concerning. lets hope for vw that it works out
decent article that is concerning. lets hope for vw that it works out
11-06-2015, 12:14 AM
#105
Rennlist Member
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...diesel-exhaust
decent article that is concerning. lets hope for vw that it works out
decent article that is concerning. lets hope for vw that it works out