kayjh

I live in Canada and have an opportunity to buy a used 2012 Cayenne Hybrid with 8,000 Km's (5,000 mikes on it). The owner has decided it just doesn't have enough interior space for his needs. It had an msrp of around $120,000 and the dealer has offered him black book which is apparently around $59,000. I'd be paying around $63,000 for the vehicle. Obviously this is a huge discount off an (in my opinion) over option SUV.

I'm nervous about the technology, given that this was Porche's first hybrid effort and there are already changes for the 2014 Panamera Hybrid, but I haven't read of any changes for the Cayenne. I've read elsewhere on this forum that the Cayenne Hybrid will be discontinued in favour of more advanced diesels going forward.

Any thoughts on this vehicle or the advisability of purchasing? On the one hand I'm thinking that I'd be getting a great SUV at half the cost of new and similar in cost to a 2014 MDX. On the other hand, I'm thinking about the battery replacement cost and all of the complicated technology that may need repair after warranty coverage runs out.

I've considered a new Cayenne or Cayenne Diesel, but they both seem a bit weak in the performance department.

Thanks,

kayjh

westy66

You must have missed the previous hybrid thread. Haha I would NEVER, the powertrain sucks

kayjh

Thanks for your reply. I did read some of the other threads but some were positive about the hybrid powertrain, so I thought I'd ask. Car and Driver was generally positive about the vehicle but couldn't make the leap to it given the payback of the initial cost. In my case, I'd be getting a slightly used hybrid for about 50% of the msrp, so the payback is less of a concern.

gnat

The problem you have is that the Hybrid hasn't been all that popular (right or wrong). This is part of the reason that a basically new one has lost 50% of it's value in 2 model years (being over optioned is the other part). I don't know the trends, but you should seriously consider how you'll handle it if it drops another 50% in the next 2-4 years.

I don't think you are interested (given the comments about warranty and battery cost), but if you were going to drive it into the ground then I'd say you would be getting a pretty good deal (I can only imagine all the options that were added to a $120k Hybrid...).

dasams

^ What are your long term plans? If you expect it to be a keeper, then buy. Where else can you find a loaded 2012 Cayenne with 5k miles for $63k?

kayjh

I'm thinking I'd drive it for 4 years and then sell it. My experience is mostly with BMW and I find that once they are off warranty and stuff starts going wrong, it would have been better to have sold it prior to the warranty expiry. This is of course why the larger BMWs (5, 7 series) values drop like a rock after 4 years.

The problem with owning this Porsche and driving it into the ground (I fear) is that it might run me into the ground (repair cost) rather than the other way around. Am I paranoid about the repair thing? The vehicle has PCCB - I shudder to think what the brake job costs on a $9,000 option.

gnat

Well unless you damage them you should need far fewer brake jobs done and in a 4 year time line I wouldn't expect you to need to rotors (I think they are supposed to go for 100k miles). Worst case, you can always go back to steal if the time comes.

Battery packs are a big fear and talked about negative for long term ownership, but in 4 years the car will only be 6-7 years old and unless it gets damaged you shouldn't have to replace the battery.

While neither of those should impact you, the next owner will have to think more seriously about them which will likely have a negative impact on it's resale value.

As far as repairs go, expensive cars get a premium for their repairs, that's just the way that it is. We have a 07 3 series that has been pretty solid (xfer case computer failed just before the warranty expired, a window regulator failed, lock actuator failed, and it needed new trunk struts). We also have had our 01 996 since new and it's been pretty solid too (rubber has by far been the biggest expense). I don't know about the Hybrid, but overall the 958s seem to be pretty reliable machines and Porsche seems to have worked the major kinks out. There will always be things that break over time, but how much that costs you also depends on what you are willing to take on yourself and shopping around for parts. I may or may not regret it but I didn't purchase an extended warranty for the CD, won't do so, and plan to have it 8-10 years.

kayjh

I think the DC is a much better bet for repair reliability (drivetrain wise). The problem is the lackluster performance of the diesel, for a Porsche and the diesel "S" version isn't available in NA. That is what initially attracted me to the Hybrid (better performance than and similar fuel economy to the diesel model). I guess the market (selling prices and resale) is the market voting on the model. Have I answered my own question??

gnat

You've mentioned performance a couple of times now in regards to the diesel. Have you driven one or are you just looking at the 0-60 numbers? For immediate throttle response you have to get up to the GTS and TT models to get the same kind of torque. What the diesel doesn't have is the legs to keep running after it's initial burst. Where that low end burst matters (other than towing) is when you want to change speeds (e.g. pass someone) and when you are getting back on power out of a curve. You should also understand that looking at the 0-60 for any Porsche doesn't give an accurate picture of the car as Porsche has never been about straight line speed, it's all about the corners. In that regard the diesel will do every bit as well as any of the other models (may have a tad bit more understeer due to the heavier engine). The CD is indeed not a race car, but it isn't shabby either and that low end torque is quite a rush to play with as well.

As far as the MPG goes, the Hybrid doesn't hold a candle to the diesel. The listed values are 24 for the Hybrid (which is only 2 better than the V6 and V8) compared to 29 for the Diesel. Even at my worst I haven't had a tank average (calculated) less than 24MPG and I've seen as high as 37* for trips on the MFD (which I know lies, but based on the numbers that's still in the 34-35 range!). The other problem is that to get the best out of a Hybrid you have to drive it like a Hybrid which is decidedly un-Porsche-like. The diesel on the other hand (besides realizing anything over 3k RPMs is just pouring fuel on the ground for no good purpose) gives you respectable (24) averages when you are having fun and great numbers when you play nice.

* Note that I have a tuner box on mine which improves both power (not proven beyond the "butt dyno") and eco (proven at the pump every time) boosts. My lowest tank average (mid-24) was without the box and included a day auto crossing it as well as some other flogging since I knew that tank average was skewed.

kayjh

Maybe a test drive is my next step. As to the 0 - 60 times, I think they mean allot in both straight line performance and midrange performance. If you go to the Porsche build page, every model lists the msrp, HP, Torque and 0 - 60 times. With respect, if those times were not a measure of the performance of a Porsche, I doubt they would list them.

I test drove a 2011 Cayenne with the V6 and while I liked the drive of the vehicle, I found it needed to work too much to make it a "fun" drive. The Cayenne S was a great suv, but the mileage (at that time) wasn't great. The 0 - 60 times for the CD and the V6 are about the same, although I'll concede that the diesel will seem much quicker off the line due to the torque.

gnat

They post them because all of their competition does and if they don't then people ask/demand/question it. It's no different than every manufacturer touting high HP values when that doesn't make as much of a difference as Torque in making the car move.

If you watch a GT race you'll see the GT3s get their asses handed to them in the straights, yet they always manage to finish well through the season. It's a given that much of racing has to do with the driver, but the GT3's ability to compete with much more powerful cars is due to all the work Porsche has put into perfecting the corner over the decades. If you go back through Porsche's racing history this is pretty much how it has always been.

Porsche's have never been straight line cars when it comes to their direct competition. This isn't to say they aren't fast, but that's not their strong point. Porsches are built to take their speed farther into corners and apply the power sooner.

This same design philosophy was taken into the Cayenne and it corners and handles like no other SUV. Even the TTS is no 911, but that doesn't negate what they can do and while the V6 or diesel (or C, Hybrid, or GTS) don't have the power of the TTS they still have the same basic handling characteristics (the difference will be the location of the drivetrain weight).

I'm not arguing that you can lap the Ring in a CD as fast as you can in a TTS, just that 0-60 isn't the only measure or even the best for any Porsche.

The V6 "hunting" for the right gear is a complaint/sentiment that's brought up in most of the V6 threads. I think part of it is also in our heads (being if we want more or not) and I think I would have been happy with the base had the diesel not come over at just the right time (would have gotten a 6mt though so the "hunting" wouldn't have been an issue).

I doubt Porsche is lying about the numbers so yes the CD is slower that the Hybrid and V8s, but all that torque masks it for a rush off the line. I don't go drag racing in it though

kayjh

I guess a test drive is in order.

ckkrause

Just saw this thread.... My wife gave me a Cayenne Hybrid for my 60th B-Day. I was underwhelmed as I was planning on getting a used CT... Having now daily driven the CSHybrid for 2+ years/30K miles, I have been won over completely! Power is very good off the line and handling is as you would expect for any Cayenne. Economy has been better than expected. For example, on recent trip from the SF Bay Area to Montana and back through Seattle we got 25.4mpg and that includes mostly 75-85mph hiway, many mt passes, as well as much city driving. Finally, zero issues with the car... as in not even a light bulb out...

Hope your test drive went well!

-CKK

endless_corners

Diesel > Hybrid

Tons of torque on the diesel.. easy to add tuning box for more power. Hwy mileage in the 30's. I see no value proposition for the hybrid. Its heavier and gets worse mileage.

Honestly think its a turd made to satisfy fleet MPG for cafe.

I am not trying to hate on anyone that has one. If someone gave me one I could find some love in my heart. But if I had a choice up front and was shopping it would not be on the list. Keep in mind that you can buy a used 957 turbo for $30-40k. Even with lower fuel economy it would take almost a decade to get back the money savings on fuel with a used 958 diesel vs a 957. But if someone is on a budget 2011 touareg tdis are $30-35k as well. Food for thought.