In the flesh picture...
01-27-2003, 06:18 PM
#16
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by M758:
<strong>I really don't like the 3 wheels in the air photo. Looks to me like there is not much suspension travel there.
Very Bad thing for 4 wheeling!
Is that a steel plate under the oil pan or just plastic?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The three wheels in the air thing is to illustrate that Cayenne can still move forward with as few as one wheel touching the ground. Most 4x4's need at least two wheels on the ground to move forward. This course was designed to showcase Cayennes driveline system. Specifically ABD.
We dont use plastic in the car business. They are composites. Metal plates are available as tequipment, or in an off road package.
Peace
PS
<strong>I really don't like the 3 wheels in the air photo. Looks to me like there is not much suspension travel there.
Very Bad thing for 4 wheeling!
Is that a steel plate under the oil pan or just plastic?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The three wheels in the air thing is to illustrate that Cayenne can still move forward with as few as one wheel touching the ground. Most 4x4's need at least two wheels on the ground to move forward. This course was designed to showcase Cayennes driveline system. Specifically ABD.
We dont use plastic in the car business. They are composites. Metal plates are available as tequipment, or in an off road package.
Peace
PS
01-27-2003, 06:40 PM
#17
Race Director
While it may have showed cased the driveline it sure show cases a serious lack of articualtion and limited break over clearnace as it looks like the driver's side rocker panel is dragging the ground.
I have still to be impressed as to the C's off-road capabilites.
I have still to be impressed as to the C's off-road capabilites.
01-28-2003, 01:19 AM
#18
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PS,
Thanks for the pics. It's nice to see some real world photos.
I take it that you sell Porsches. Are you at Bluegrass (the dealer where I purchased my 993TT and Range Rover)? Care to share your name with us?
M758 brings up a good point regarding some of your pics. On the steep stuff, it certainly looks like articulation is limited and the Cayenne wants to scrape its side rocker panels and rear bumper big time. Is this OK? At the least, it would appear to make the tequipment metal underbody plates a must for true off-road enthusiasts.
Also, not to be insulting, but some "composites" are basically fancy plastics, as far as consumers are concerned. And there is a bunch of fancy plastic used in the car business, both in the interiors and engine bays. At least, that's how this former engineer looks at it.
Thanks for the pics. It's nice to see some real world photos.
I take it that you sell Porsches. Are you at Bluegrass (the dealer where I purchased my 993TT and Range Rover)? Care to share your name with us?
M758 brings up a good point regarding some of your pics. On the steep stuff, it certainly looks like articulation is limited and the Cayenne wants to scrape its side rocker panels and rear bumper big time. Is this OK? At the least, it would appear to make the tequipment metal underbody plates a must for true off-road enthusiasts.
Also, not to be insulting, but some "composites" are basically fancy plastics, as far as consumers are concerned. And there is a bunch of fancy plastic used in the car business, both in the interiors and engine bays. At least, that's how this former engineer looks at it.
01-28-2003, 03:53 PM
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I do sell Porsches. Have done so for 12 years. I was trying to be discreet though since I 've lurked here for awhile, I know emotions can run high. I'm likely to say something that may **** some body off and the last thing I want is some joker saying to my dealer or PCNA "well....I was gonna buy a new___________, but so-and so pissed me off"
Anir, If you want the details PM me.
I debated about posting the photos, but since there werent really any others(photos) around here, I posted them thinking that some people might find then interesting.
The course where you see all of the photos of Cayennes with wheels off the ground was specifically desgined for Cayennes. The camel trophy guys, that were leading our off road course, MEASURED all of the obstacles to co-incide with the Cayennes measurements and capabilites. In other words, they cut the course to make Cayennes do that on purpose. The benefit, was to showcase the Cayennes capabilities. It not an accident that the rocker is ALMOST hitting the ground,once again, THEY DID THAT ON PURPOSE. Prior to doing these excersises, the camel trophy guys, took us on a three mile off road course that wasnt cut like that. All of our wheels stayed on the ground, we climbed, we descended, we turned, we drove, and saw lots of sky.
No one is saying that the new cayenne will be the ultimate off roader, but it easily surpasses the capabilities of DC's ML's, and BMW's X-5. Infact the C, is almost as good as the mighty RR off road. Three wheels in the air or not. The camel trophy guys even said so themselves.
Since many off you havent driven the C on the road, you have no idea how significant that is. Can you imagine Rover building a sports car, and some one saying it's almost as good as a 911? I cant either.
As far as plastics go....any 993 drivers here? How many lenses have you guys bought? Any 996 owners here? Next time youre in for service, take a look at some of the cars in the shop. plastics, or composites have been used in the car business for some time. Like Anir said, especially in engine bays. why? Cause they are cheap? No, not really, sometimes they just work better. All you Porsche guys should know that Porsche obsesses over weight reduction. It's not an accident that the C weighs less than a T-egg, but is more powerful, it is through the use of composites, and other measures, that those weight savings are achieved. Does every owner need a big metal plate on the front of their Cayenne? Dont think so.
Excess weight negatively affects handling, EXPONENTIALY. Porsche couldve hung a stout metal plate there, but when a composite alternative is available that will work better for 99.5 percent of owners, why not go with it?
It's so easy to nit pick the cars. As a guy who makes over 100k a year selling the cars, I was a huge skeptic. But now, I gotta say the C is a winner. It's not really even an SUV in the traditional sense. It's primary focus, like all porsches is performance, and with a straight face, I can tell you it's pretty much a sports car with some suv traits. An SUV to me, is an explorer or tahoe. The C will redefine the catagory of the SUV.
If you want the ultimate off roader, go buy an H1 Hummer. The Range Rover, once my favorite premium SUV, revealed itself for what it is, during our back-to-back slalom comparison, A cadillac Deville(not deville DTS) in disguise.
The BMW is kinda like a five series in disuise. And dare I say it? The Cayenne is very much like a 911 on the road, but more capable than most ordinary SUVS off the road. You'll see when you drive them.
Peace
PS
Anir, If you want the details PM me.
I debated about posting the photos, but since there werent really any others(photos) around here, I posted them thinking that some people might find then interesting.
The course where you see all of the photos of Cayennes with wheels off the ground was specifically desgined for Cayennes. The camel trophy guys, that were leading our off road course, MEASURED all of the obstacles to co-incide with the Cayennes measurements and capabilites. In other words, they cut the course to make Cayennes do that on purpose. The benefit, was to showcase the Cayennes capabilities. It not an accident that the rocker is ALMOST hitting the ground,once again, THEY DID THAT ON PURPOSE. Prior to doing these excersises, the camel trophy guys, took us on a three mile off road course that wasnt cut like that. All of our wheels stayed on the ground, we climbed, we descended, we turned, we drove, and saw lots of sky.
No one is saying that the new cayenne will be the ultimate off roader, but it easily surpasses the capabilities of DC's ML's, and BMW's X-5. Infact the C, is almost as good as the mighty RR off road. Three wheels in the air or not. The camel trophy guys even said so themselves.
Since many off you havent driven the C on the road, you have no idea how significant that is. Can you imagine Rover building a sports car, and some one saying it's almost as good as a 911? I cant either.
As far as plastics go....any 993 drivers here? How many lenses have you guys bought? Any 996 owners here? Next time youre in for service, take a look at some of the cars in the shop. plastics, or composites have been used in the car business for some time. Like Anir said, especially in engine bays. why? Cause they are cheap? No, not really, sometimes they just work better. All you Porsche guys should know that Porsche obsesses over weight reduction. It's not an accident that the C weighs less than a T-egg, but is more powerful, it is through the use of composites, and other measures, that those weight savings are achieved. Does every owner need a big metal plate on the front of their Cayenne? Dont think so.
Excess weight negatively affects handling, EXPONENTIALY. Porsche couldve hung a stout metal plate there, but when a composite alternative is available that will work better for 99.5 percent of owners, why not go with it?
It's so easy to nit pick the cars. As a guy who makes over 100k a year selling the cars, I was a huge skeptic. But now, I gotta say the C is a winner. It's not really even an SUV in the traditional sense. It's primary focus, like all porsches is performance, and with a straight face, I can tell you it's pretty much a sports car with some suv traits. An SUV to me, is an explorer or tahoe. The C will redefine the catagory of the SUV.
If you want the ultimate off roader, go buy an H1 Hummer. The Range Rover, once my favorite premium SUV, revealed itself for what it is, during our back-to-back slalom comparison, A cadillac Deville(not deville DTS) in disguise.
The BMW is kinda like a five series in disuise. And dare I say it? The Cayenne is very much like a 911 on the road, but more capable than most ordinary SUVS off the road. You'll see when you drive them.
Peace
PS
01-29-2003, 04:31 PM
#20
Race Director
P-seller,
I don't think using plastic (ok composites <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) in a P-car is bad. I just had bad memories of a friend's 2000 Chevy Blazer. Took him on an off-road trip. He did fine until we got to some rocks.
<img src="http://www.takeahike-az.org/DSCF0041.jpg" alt=" - " />
Here he did not have enough ground clearance and I found the plastic (ok composite) gas tank to be in a very vulnerable location. Much time was spent stacking rocks to ensure he did not puncture it. A simple gas tank skid plate would have been much safer. To me an off-road vehicle needs to have protection for the vital components like Gas tank or oil pan if they are low and in harms way. Sure the trend is leave these off-since "nobody goes off-road anyway", but it does not make me like it. Heck the C is already 5000lbs. What is a 20lbs skid plate low to the ground really going to hurt vs a hole in the oil pan 20 miles from the nearest pavement.
I don't think using plastic (ok composites <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> ) in a P-car is bad. I just had bad memories of a friend's 2000 Chevy Blazer. Took him on an off-road trip. He did fine until we got to some rocks.
<img src="http://www.takeahike-az.org/DSCF0041.jpg" alt=" - " />
Here he did not have enough ground clearance and I found the plastic (ok composite) gas tank to be in a very vulnerable location. Much time was spent stacking rocks to ensure he did not puncture it. A simple gas tank skid plate would have been much safer. To me an off-road vehicle needs to have protection for the vital components like Gas tank or oil pan if they are low and in harms way. Sure the trend is leave these off-since "nobody goes off-road anyway", but it does not make me like it. Heck the C is already 5000lbs. What is a 20lbs skid plate low to the ground really going to hurt vs a hole in the oil pan 20 miles from the nearest pavement.
01-29-2003, 04:56 PM
#21
Race Director
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by P-seller:
<strong>
No one is saying that the new cayenne will be the ultimate off roader, but it easily surpasses the capabilities of DC's ML's, and BMW's X-5. Infact the C, is almost as good as the mighty RR off road. Three wheels in the air or not. The camel trophy guys even said so themselves.
Since many off you havent driven the C on the road, you have no idea how significant that is. Can you imagine Rover building a sports car, and some one saying it's almost as good as a 911? I cant either.
It's so easy to nit pick the cars. As a guy who makes over 100k a year selling the cars, I was a huge skeptic. But now, I gotta say the C is a winner. It's not really even an SUV in the traditional sense. It's primary focus, like all porsches is performance, and with a straight face, I can tell you it's pretty much a sports car with some suv traits. An SUV to me, is an explorer or tahoe. The C will redefine the catagory of the SUV.
If you want the ultimate off roader, go buy an H1 Hummer. The Range Rover, once my favorite premium SUV, revealed itself for what it is, during our back-to-back slalom comparison, A cadillac Deville(not deville DTS) in disguise.
The BMW is kinda like a five series in disuise. And dare I say it? The Cayenne is very much like a 911 on the road, but more capable than most ordinary SUVS off the road. You'll see when you drive them.
Peace
PS</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">P-Seller Thanks for the information! Glad to have you hear feed us info <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
That said I think you have hit on MY biggest problem with the C.
Porsche has always built extreme cars. Some of the best sports cars and Grand Touring Cars in the world.
To me this means excellence at their given purpose. In this light the C SHOULD be one of best off-road vehicles in the world. That would follow with the Porsche tradition of excellence. To some this may seem odd, but to me it is what I expect.
I do not expect a 911 to perform like a rock crawler. I excpect it to perform as sports car first. If slightly modified C4 can do some off-road stuff, cool. Just don't call it and SUV or crossover sports off-roader. It is sports car plain and simple.
For the Cayenne it supposed to be an SUV. Fine then make it go toe to toe with Land Rovers, Jeeps Wranglers, G500, and Hummers H1 of the world. Make Porshce proud by showing it has some of the finest off-road capability in the world. If it can handle nicely on the road too that is great. An SUV should be on off-road machine first, plain and simple. Porsche engineers are well capable of doing thus, but instead have tried to take the SUV and make it into a sports car first then give it some off-road skills. To me that is like taking a Jeep Wranger lowering it some and calling it a roadster since it does not have a roof.
Porsche as never been into the flavor of the month crowd before, but seems like it has done so with the C!
Too me Porsche has always represented the "Ultimate". Now that they are in the off-road business am I wrong to expect the "ultimate" there too? Or did they build the "ultimate" soccer mom mobile?
<strong>
No one is saying that the new cayenne will be the ultimate off roader, but it easily surpasses the capabilities of DC's ML's, and BMW's X-5. Infact the C, is almost as good as the mighty RR off road. Three wheels in the air or not. The camel trophy guys even said so themselves.
Since many off you havent driven the C on the road, you have no idea how significant that is. Can you imagine Rover building a sports car, and some one saying it's almost as good as a 911? I cant either.
It's so easy to nit pick the cars. As a guy who makes over 100k a year selling the cars, I was a huge skeptic. But now, I gotta say the C is a winner. It's not really even an SUV in the traditional sense. It's primary focus, like all porsches is performance, and with a straight face, I can tell you it's pretty much a sports car with some suv traits. An SUV to me, is an explorer or tahoe. The C will redefine the catagory of the SUV.
If you want the ultimate off roader, go buy an H1 Hummer. The Range Rover, once my favorite premium SUV, revealed itself for what it is, during our back-to-back slalom comparison, A cadillac Deville(not deville DTS) in disguise.
The BMW is kinda like a five series in disuise. And dare I say it? The Cayenne is very much like a 911 on the road, but more capable than most ordinary SUVS off the road. You'll see when you drive them.
Peace
PS</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">P-Seller Thanks for the information! Glad to have you hear feed us info <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
That said I think you have hit on MY biggest problem with the C.
Porsche has always built extreme cars. Some of the best sports cars and Grand Touring Cars in the world.
To me this means excellence at their given purpose. In this light the C SHOULD be one of best off-road vehicles in the world. That would follow with the Porsche tradition of excellence. To some this may seem odd, but to me it is what I expect.
I do not expect a 911 to perform like a rock crawler. I excpect it to perform as sports car first. If slightly modified C4 can do some off-road stuff, cool. Just don't call it and SUV or crossover sports off-roader. It is sports car plain and simple.
For the Cayenne it supposed to be an SUV. Fine then make it go toe to toe with Land Rovers, Jeeps Wranglers, G500, and Hummers H1 of the world. Make Porshce proud by showing it has some of the finest off-road capability in the world. If it can handle nicely on the road too that is great. An SUV should be on off-road machine first, plain and simple. Porsche engineers are well capable of doing thus, but instead have tried to take the SUV and make it into a sports car first then give it some off-road skills. To me that is like taking a Jeep Wranger lowering it some and calling it a roadster since it does not have a roof.
Porsche as never been into the flavor of the month crowd before, but seems like it has done so with the C!
Too me Porsche has always represented the "Ultimate". Now that they are in the off-road business am I wrong to expect the "ultimate" there too? Or did they build the "ultimate" soccer mom mobile?
01-29-2003, 07:58 PM
#22
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by M758:
<strong>An SUV should be on off-road machine first, plain and simple.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Really?? Why??
Which chapter of which Bible is that commandment written in????
From my no doubt slightly mypoic European eyes the historic appearance of Off Road / On road combo vehicles was as so:
Jeep & Land Rover - Crude & Very Off Road Biased.
Range Rover & Land Cruiser - Still Off Road Biased, but more comfortable and easier on road.
Cherokee and LR Discovery & Shogun - Good Off Road and a great improvement on road.
BMW X5 & Merc ML & Grand Cherokee - Limited Off Road ability, designed for Road Use.
Now, models such as the RR and LandCruiser have changed over the years, but roughly speaking the above order is how the off road sector has developed. The first two sets were primarily designed for heavy off road use, the last two sets for primarily road use.
The Cayenne, perfectly sensibly is designed for how it will be used - the vast majority of time on road. But it would seem that being Porsche they've ensured that it has excellent off road credentials too. Not extreme off road ability - because it's patently obvious that almost nobody will ever want to take on down a rockface. Instead ability that apparently almost puts it on a par with the RR and certainly the Disco.
I fully expect that 90% of buyers will not utilise this ability - in exactly the same way that for the past 30 years 90% of RR and Cherokee owners have hardly ever climbed a kerb. That may be offensive to Off Road and Sports Car purists - but hey, it's a free world - no-one's forcing you to buy either vehicle.
Instead there will be the odd buyer like myself, who does a large mileage on good, clear motorways and A class roads (and wants to make progress on them) but also finds themselves for three or four months a year having to extract themselves from forestry plantations. At the moment (If I am to combine my car use into one vehicle) I have to buy a vehicle that assumes ship like characteristics when any speed on road is attempted.
The Cayenne seems to be a big step forward in combining ability in both uses - if this is proven to be the case we should celebrate the achievement. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
<strong>An SUV should be on off-road machine first, plain and simple.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Really?? Why??
Which chapter of which Bible is that commandment written in????From my no doubt slightly mypoic European eyes the historic appearance of Off Road / On road combo vehicles was as so:
Jeep & Land Rover - Crude & Very Off Road Biased.
Range Rover & Land Cruiser - Still Off Road Biased, but more comfortable and easier on road.
Cherokee and LR Discovery & Shogun - Good Off Road and a great improvement on road.
BMW X5 & Merc ML & Grand Cherokee - Limited Off Road ability, designed for Road Use.
Now, models such as the RR and LandCruiser have changed over the years, but roughly speaking the above order is how the off road sector has developed. The first two sets were primarily designed for heavy off road use, the last two sets for primarily road use.
The Cayenne, perfectly sensibly is designed for how it will be used - the vast majority of time on road. But it would seem that being Porsche they've ensured that it has excellent off road credentials too. Not extreme off road ability - because it's patently obvious that almost nobody will ever want to take on down a rockface. Instead ability that apparently almost puts it on a par with the RR and certainly the Disco.
I fully expect that 90% of buyers will not utilise this ability - in exactly the same way that for the past 30 years 90% of RR and Cherokee owners have hardly ever climbed a kerb. That may be offensive to Off Road and Sports Car purists - but hey, it's a free world - no-one's forcing you to buy either vehicle.
Instead there will be the odd buyer like myself, who does a large mileage on good, clear motorways and A class roads (and wants to make progress on them) but also finds themselves for three or four months a year having to extract themselves from forestry plantations. At the moment (If I am to combine my car use into one vehicle) I have to buy a vehicle that assumes ship like characteristics when any speed on road is attempted.
The Cayenne seems to be a big step forward in combining ability in both uses - if this is proven to be the case we should celebrate the achievement. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />
01-29-2003, 08:34 PM
#23
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Celebrate we shall. In my parts, Chicago, Illinois in the USA we can get lake-effect snowstorms that can deliver up to 12 to 18" at a time. My position can qualify me as essential personnel. Along with poor road surfaces the SUV platforms serves the urban dweller fine.
Occasionally I will find myself towing a boat and trailer, which I cannot do in a 996 or 986. I probably will not climb a rock face but I will be going off-road on the back roads in Mississippi and Michigan.
Occasionally I will find myself towing a boat and trailer, which I cannot do in a 996 or 986. I probably will not climb a rock face but I will be going off-road on the back roads in Mississippi and Michigan.
01-29-2003, 08:57 PM
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M758, while I understand your passion about hardcore SUV's, Christian is spot-on. Porsche has clearly achieved the goal you suggested - to design one of the best off-road vehicles in the world with good on-road performance. You seem to have a problem with their inability to make it the outright best off-road vehicle in the world - bar none - but this is not compatible with extreme on-road performance.
Plus, they designed it to sell, and most folks who can buy one of these simply do not share your perspective. As a Porsche owner who recently purchased an SUV, I was personally more concerned with towing, people-hauling, and a luxury interior than with the ability to leap buildings in a single bound. Interestingly, I care more about design and comfort than ultimate performance in a dedicated family car, which is why I didn't wait for the Cayenne.
Plus, they designed it to sell, and most folks who can buy one of these simply do not share your perspective. As a Porsche owner who recently purchased an SUV, I was personally more concerned with towing, people-hauling, and a luxury interior than with the ability to leap buildings in a single bound. Interestingly, I care more about design and comfort than ultimate performance in a dedicated family car, which is why I didn't wait for the Cayenne.
01-30-2003, 12:15 PM
#26
Race Director
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Anir:
<strong>M758, while I understand your passion about hardcore SUV's, Christian is spot-on. Porsche has clearly achieved the goal you suggested - to design one of the best off-road vehicles in the world with good on-road performance. You seem to have a problem with their inability to make it the outright best off-road vehicle in the world - bar none - but this is not compatible with extreme on-road performance.
Plus, they designed it to sell, and most folks who can buy one of these simply do not share your perspective. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Well,
This is they way I see it
To me certain car types have specific attibutes:
Sports Car (911,944) = Low,Small, Light,Powerfull, great handling & road holding. Fun to drive in the twisties with track potential.
Sports Coupe (M3)= Smallish 4 person 2 door sport car, Good handling and road holding, Fun to drive with some practicallity.
Grand Touring Car (928, 550 Maranello) = FAST, Powerfull, 2 passenger (max 2+2) Can cover lots of ground with out even thinking or breaking a sweat. See 928!
Sport Sedan (M5, 3 series, RS6)= 4 door, smallish, reasonable power, nice handling. Great for the guy who needs space for people and still wants a sports car at heart.
Luxury Sedan (S class, 740, E Class, 5 series) = Medium to Large with lavish appointments and max comfort. Powerfull and fast on the open road.
Family Sedan (Passat, Camry, Accord)= Cost effective. Room for 4 +1, nice comfortable car, Reasonalbe power, decient handling.
Station Wagon (estate) = A wagon version of Family sedan, Luxury Sedan or Sport Sedan with more room for cargo.
Mini van = Ideal for people hauling. Not great fun to drive, but effective at hauling people 5+ or 4 with lots of space.
Full Size Van = Ideal for large numbers of people, medium- heavy towing, Gear carrying, camper vans, work vans
Truck (compact) = Ideal for light to medium towing and load carrying, carry's gear out to places, can be 2wd or 4wd. 4wd have added ability to do some exploring
Truck (Full Size) = Ideal for big jobs, Hauling Towing. 4wd allows access more remote locations for hauling and towing.
Full Size SUV (Suburban) = Full Size truck with fixed roof to trade some gear space and hauling for people.
Full Size SUV (Old Chevy Blazer, OJ's Bronco, Land Rovers, Late 80's Land Crusier) = Full Size truck with decient off-road or expedtition capabilites (ie can carry people and gear to remote places where 90% of other vehicle will not go). Can also be used on the street with reasonalbe comfort.
Mid Size SUV (Jeep Cherokee, Nissan Pathfinder, Toyota 4 Runner)= Ideal for light towning/ Hauling with provision for people and gear. Excellent off-road capabilites. Better than Full Size SUV at the expense of less cargo room and people hauling ability. Nimble (of sorts) on the road and off-road. Ideal for short to medium back county adventures. Can be used for pure off-roading, but may not have the absolute ability of the smaller SUV. Resonalble on-road comfort.
Small SUV (Jeep CJ, Wranger, Land Cruiser FJ40, Suzuki Samurai)= Extreme 4wd adventures, back country exploring carry 2 with some gear or 4 with light or minimal gear. spirtual equvalant of the sports car for off-road conditions. Not ideal on road, but works.
So guys with this way of thinking. SUV = off-road capabilites in the same way sports car means fun on the streets or track. Since Porsche is great at one end of the spectrum why not be great at the other too?
When in the past has Porsche designed a vehicle BECAUSE most people want it that way? The 356,911 and all others were designed to be good at 1 thing first. Then worry about the rest. Heck most people never have taken a 911 out to the race track. Has that stopped Porsche from making a track capable 911? No it has not. This is the way in which Porsche has been special. This single minded focus in producing the best vehicle for its given purpose. To me the 928 is not a strict sport car, but is in my mind one of the all time great Grand Touring cars ever made. The 911 of course is one of the best sports cars ever made.
What will the Cayenne be? The most sports car like SUV ever made? That to me is like taking 911 C4 and calling it the best off-roading sports car ever made. Nice, but will the C4 will the C4 do on the track.
Call me purist if like, because that is what I am. <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />
<strong>M758, while I understand your passion about hardcore SUV's, Christian is spot-on. Porsche has clearly achieved the goal you suggested - to design one of the best off-road vehicles in the world with good on-road performance. You seem to have a problem with their inability to make it the outright best off-road vehicle in the world - bar none - but this is not compatible with extreme on-road performance.
Plus, they designed it to sell, and most folks who can buy one of these simply do not share your perspective. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Well,
This is they way I see it
To me certain car types have specific attibutes:
Sports Car (911,944) = Low,Small, Light,Powerfull, great handling & road holding. Fun to drive in the twisties with track potential.
Sports Coupe (M3)= Smallish 4 person 2 door sport car, Good handling and road holding, Fun to drive with some practicallity.
Grand Touring Car (928, 550 Maranello) = FAST, Powerfull, 2 passenger (max 2+2) Can cover lots of ground with out even thinking or breaking a sweat. See 928!
Sport Sedan (M5, 3 series, RS6)= 4 door, smallish, reasonable power, nice handling. Great for the guy who needs space for people and still wants a sports car at heart.
Luxury Sedan (S class, 740, E Class, 5 series) = Medium to Large with lavish appointments and max comfort. Powerfull and fast on the open road.
Family Sedan (Passat, Camry, Accord)= Cost effective. Room for 4 +1, nice comfortable car, Reasonalbe power, decient handling.
Station Wagon (estate) = A wagon version of Family sedan, Luxury Sedan or Sport Sedan with more room for cargo.
Mini van = Ideal for people hauling. Not great fun to drive, but effective at hauling people 5+ or 4 with lots of space.
Full Size Van = Ideal for large numbers of people, medium- heavy towing, Gear carrying, camper vans, work vans
Truck (compact) = Ideal for light to medium towing and load carrying, carry's gear out to places, can be 2wd or 4wd. 4wd have added ability to do some exploring
Truck (Full Size) = Ideal for big jobs, Hauling Towing. 4wd allows access more remote locations for hauling and towing.
Full Size SUV (Suburban) = Full Size truck with fixed roof to trade some gear space and hauling for people.
Full Size SUV (Old Chevy Blazer, OJ's Bronco, Land Rovers, Late 80's Land Crusier) = Full Size truck with decient off-road or expedtition capabilites (ie can carry people and gear to remote places where 90% of other vehicle will not go). Can also be used on the street with reasonalbe comfort.
Mid Size SUV (Jeep Cherokee, Nissan Pathfinder, Toyota 4 Runner)= Ideal for light towning/ Hauling with provision for people and gear. Excellent off-road capabilites. Better than Full Size SUV at the expense of less cargo room and people hauling ability. Nimble (of sorts) on the road and off-road. Ideal for short to medium back county adventures. Can be used for pure off-roading, but may not have the absolute ability of the smaller SUV. Resonalble on-road comfort.
Small SUV (Jeep CJ, Wranger, Land Cruiser FJ40, Suzuki Samurai)= Extreme 4wd adventures, back country exploring carry 2 with some gear or 4 with light or minimal gear. spirtual equvalant of the sports car for off-road conditions. Not ideal on road, but works.
So guys with this way of thinking. SUV = off-road capabilites in the same way sports car means fun on the streets or track. Since Porsche is great at one end of the spectrum why not be great at the other too?
When in the past has Porsche designed a vehicle BECAUSE most people want it that way? The 356,911 and all others were designed to be good at 1 thing first. Then worry about the rest. Heck most people never have taken a 911 out to the race track. Has that stopped Porsche from making a track capable 911? No it has not. This is the way in which Porsche has been special. This single minded focus in producing the best vehicle for its given purpose. To me the 928 is not a strict sport car, but is in my mind one of the all time great Grand Touring cars ever made. The 911 of course is one of the best sports cars ever made.
What will the Cayenne be? The most sports car like SUV ever made? That to me is like taking 911 C4 and calling it the best off-roading sports car ever made. Nice, but will the C4 will the C4 do on the track.
Call me purist if like, because that is what I am. <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />
01-30-2003, 04:19 PM
#27
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by P-seller:
<strong>The three wheels in the air thing is to illustrate that Cayenne can still move forward with as few as one wheel touching the ground. Most 4x4's need at least two wheels on the ground to move forward. This course was designed to showcase Cayennes driveline system. Specifically ABD...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I must confess, that sounds really impressive!
I've never heard a car to be able to balance on one wheel. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Do you know how long distances Cayenne can go with only one wheel on the ground?
<strong>The three wheels in the air thing is to illustrate that Cayenne can still move forward with as few as one wheel touching the ground. Most 4x4's need at least two wheels on the ground to move forward. This course was designed to showcase Cayennes driveline system. Specifically ABD...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I must confess, that sounds really impressive!
I've never heard a car to be able to balance on one wheel. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Do you know how long distances Cayenne can go with only one wheel on the ground?
01-30-2003, 06:20 PM
#28
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Flying Finn:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by P-seller:
<strong>The three wheels in the air thing is to illustrate that Cayenne can still move forward with as few as one wheel touching the ground. Most 4x4's need at least two wheels on the ground to move forward. This course was designed to showcase Cayennes driveline system. Specifically ABD...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I must confess, that sounds really impressive!
I've never heard a car to be able to balance on one wheel. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Do you know how long distances Cayenne can go with only one wheel on the ground? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I hear ya.....Most wheels we had off the ground was two, but the third WAS real light.
Peace
PS
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by P-seller:
<strong>The three wheels in the air thing is to illustrate that Cayenne can still move forward with as few as one wheel touching the ground. Most 4x4's need at least two wheels on the ground to move forward. This course was designed to showcase Cayennes driveline system. Specifically ABD...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I must confess, that sounds really impressive!
I've never heard a car to be able to balance on one wheel. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
Do you know how long distances Cayenne can go with only one wheel on the ground?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I hear ya.....Most wheels we had off the ground was two, but the third WAS real light.Peace
PS
01-30-2003, 10:37 PM
#29
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M758,
Maybe, "purist" is the right word for you. "Rigid" might be another. You seem to have trouble with the idea that a vehicle might cross your rather strict class definitions.
For example, by your definitions, the new Range Rover is part truck, part luxury sedan, part minivan, part station wagon, etc, etc.
Why the furor over cross-over or hybrid vehicles?
Maybe, "purist" is the right word for you. "Rigid" might be another. You seem to have trouble with the idea that a vehicle might cross your rather strict class definitions.
For example, by your definitions, the new Range Rover is part truck, part luxury sedan, part minivan, part station wagon, etc, etc.
Why the furor over cross-over or hybrid vehicles?
