So SICK OF THIS
12-30-2002, 11:37 PM
#1
So SICK OF THIS
like the Cayenne,and plan to buy one. I come to this forum to get updated info,whats new. What I find is the same people making post after post of the same thing, Its ugly, I don't like the name, why isnt Porsche racing Bla Bla Bla. Do these same people go to the 914 forum and tell them that their cars have VW motors, or the 924 forum and harp about Audi truck motors?
I have a RS America that I mostly use for track events,I rarely use it on the street,because I need to drive an SUV for my job. I would love to drive my 911 every day, the next best thing is the Cayenne.
I have a RS America that I mostly use for track events,I rarely use it on the street,because I need to drive an SUV for my job. I would love to drive my 911 every day, the next best thing is the Cayenne.
12-31-2002, 12:10 AM
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Heart on sleeve...
The simple fact is that there are a lot of Porsche fans who are having a hard time with the notion that their favourite sports car manufacturer is building an SUV. Oh, to hell with it, let's just call it what it is, a jacked-up station wagon.
Now, there are a lot of us Porsche folks who have SUVs in our garages, and Porsche logically figures this is a good market. But, those of us driving 944s, 914s, and MOST ESPECIALLY the 911 contingent, still don't feel right about it.
Truth is, we see the P-cars as reliable Ferraris and it galls us that Porsche would do this. Especially doing it in conjunction with VW, who has managed to (photographically, anyway) created a better-looking version of the same body. Porsche-DNA stretched over a 150% vertical plane notwithstanding.
With all that said, and with two Porsches and an M3 already in the garage, do you know what my wife's next car is? Yup. Cayenne. She LOVES it.
Shows you what I know.
-> Karl T
The simple fact is that there are a lot of Porsche fans who are having a hard time with the notion that their favourite sports car manufacturer is building an SUV. Oh, to hell with it, let's just call it what it is, a jacked-up station wagon.
Now, there are a lot of us Porsche folks who have SUVs in our garages, and Porsche logically figures this is a good market. But, those of us driving 944s, 914s, and MOST ESPECIALLY the 911 contingent, still don't feel right about it.
Truth is, we see the P-cars as reliable Ferraris and it galls us that Porsche would do this. Especially doing it in conjunction with VW, who has managed to (photographically, anyway) created a better-looking version of the same body. Porsche-DNA stretched over a 150% vertical plane notwithstanding.
With all that said, and with two Porsches and an M3 already in the garage, do you know what my wife's next car is? Yup. Cayenne. She LOVES it.
Shows you what I know.
-> Karl T
12-31-2002, 12:54 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by Rob/RSA:
<strong>like the Cayenne,and plan to buy one. I come to this forum to get updated info,whats new. What I find is the same people making post after post of the same thing, Its ugly, I don't like the name, why isnt Porsche racing Bla Bla Bla. Do these same people go to the 914 forum and tell them that their cars have VW motors, or the 924 forum and harp about Audi truck motors?
I have a RS America that I mostly use for track events,I rarely use it on the street,because I need to drive an SUV for my job. I would love to drive my 911 every day, the next best thing is the Cayenne.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Just finished a 9-hour drive back from Vermont, I should probably wait a little while before posting, but I'll probably be sleeping for the next 24 hours, so here goes...
A couple of responses, Rob, and these are just MY thoughts:
I'm not too sympathetic to the plight of anyone who wants to post technical information or positive perceptions about the C to this board yet lacks the fortitude to post simply because of the significant number of posts criticizing the styling of the Cayenne or Porsche's decision not to race, or not to come back sooner, or to do whatever with engineers or financial resources. The Cayenne and these issues are inextricably linked because ... drum roll please ... Porsche has expressly linked them in their corporate comments. It's no surprise that initial discussions of the Cayenne are fraught with all of these issues.
No one in the US other than car mag editors has driven a Cayenne yet. You'll have to wait a while longer for first-hand impressions. I'd love to hear from anyone in Europe who has taken delivery and has impressions to share. The options lists for the S and Turbo were long ago made public. What's new to talk about? What are you looking for? When some time passes and more first-hand information is available, I'll bet the character and substance of the posts will begin to focus more sharply on those details.
Would you like John D to push the "reset" button for this forum so it has no posting history? Would you have us pretend that the Cayenne has been universally praised for its styling? What kind of inviting, soft pillow can be laid out to encourage people to make the posts you seem to be looking for before the C's actually seen in the flesh? Can't we talk about the thing ad nauseum, if we want to?
In the meantime, many posters who have levied criticism at the Cayenne and Porsche have also copied very informative reviews of the Cayenne, containing both pro and con assessments of the Cayenne and its details. They've also taken the time to applaud the technical achievements of the C. Of the web boards I've seen with forums devoted to the Cayenne (this one, Roadfly.org, and Rennteam.com), this one is among the most informative and active, with a slight edge to Rennteam, which is hosted by several European Porsche enthusiasts who've had the good fortune to drive the Cayenne and whose impressions are not different than the thoughts expressed by the observers and mag reviewers posted here. Roadfly has absolutely no information that's not otherwise available on the options list.
I hope we get a chance to hear your thoughts after you've taken delivery, and I wish you the best with your Cayenne ownership.
Happy New Year!
Regards,
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
<strong>like the Cayenne,and plan to buy one. I come to this forum to get updated info,whats new. What I find is the same people making post after post of the same thing, Its ugly, I don't like the name, why isnt Porsche racing Bla Bla Bla. Do these same people go to the 914 forum and tell them that their cars have VW motors, or the 924 forum and harp about Audi truck motors?
I have a RS America that I mostly use for track events,I rarely use it on the street,because I need to drive an SUV for my job. I would love to drive my 911 every day, the next best thing is the Cayenne.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Just finished a 9-hour drive back from Vermont, I should probably wait a little while before posting, but I'll probably be sleeping for the next 24 hours, so here goes...
A couple of responses, Rob, and these are just MY thoughts:
I'm not too sympathetic to the plight of anyone who wants to post technical information or positive perceptions about the C to this board yet lacks the fortitude to post simply because of the significant number of posts criticizing the styling of the Cayenne or Porsche's decision not to race, or not to come back sooner, or to do whatever with engineers or financial resources. The Cayenne and these issues are inextricably linked because ... drum roll please ... Porsche has expressly linked them in their corporate comments. It's no surprise that initial discussions of the Cayenne are fraught with all of these issues.
No one in the US other than car mag editors has driven a Cayenne yet. You'll have to wait a while longer for first-hand impressions. I'd love to hear from anyone in Europe who has taken delivery and has impressions to share. The options lists for the S and Turbo were long ago made public. What's new to talk about? What are you looking for? When some time passes and more first-hand information is available, I'll bet the character and substance of the posts will begin to focus more sharply on those details.
Would you like John D to push the "reset" button for this forum so it has no posting history? Would you have us pretend that the Cayenne has been universally praised for its styling? What kind of inviting, soft pillow can be laid out to encourage people to make the posts you seem to be looking for before the C's actually seen in the flesh? Can't we talk about the thing ad nauseum, if we want to?
In the meantime, many posters who have levied criticism at the Cayenne and Porsche have also copied very informative reviews of the Cayenne, containing both pro and con assessments of the Cayenne and its details. They've also taken the time to applaud the technical achievements of the C. Of the web boards I've seen with forums devoted to the Cayenne (this one, Roadfly.org, and Rennteam.com), this one is among the most informative and active, with a slight edge to Rennteam, which is hosted by several European Porsche enthusiasts who've had the good fortune to drive the Cayenne and whose impressions are not different than the thoughts expressed by the observers and mag reviewers posted here. Roadfly has absolutely no information that's not otherwise available on the options list.
I hope we get a chance to hear your thoughts after you've taken delivery, and I wish you the best with your Cayenne ownership.
Happy New Year!
Regards,
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
12-31-2002, 01:49 PM
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[quote]Rob/RSA: <strong> Do these same people go to the 914 forum and tell them that their cars have VW motors, or the 924 forum and harp about Audi truck motors? </strong><hr></blockquote>
This is a forum about this particular Porsche product, and there clearly is strong opinions on both sides of the isle. And strong opinions here and worldwide...
But to your points, the name doesn't bother me (sure beats VWs T-egg
), but the trade-off of this verses racing does. The fact that it has many parts from the VW parts bin doesn't bother me. No, it should have come from the parts bin (except the V8tt and the other go fast parts), then we could still have factory racing - and a hord of cash (and in this economy cash is king). In addition to being great to watch, factory racing programs build/test/improve automotive technology (that ultimately finds its way into our cars), and builds brand loyalty.
What you missed has been the broader debate here over the whole strategy - the business decision making process behind this product, current Porsche management media blitz defending the logic of building this (at this time - and at this price point), and the need to fore go racing to build trucks (as a brand expansion plan). It will continue to be a closely watched lesson in business decision making (the need to spend billions and risk the whole shooting match - to save a company), and a great topic for debate.
As for the design, it would appear (in pictures) to have missed the mark. It neither has the tough up right truck like lines (but the T-egg does, and which the Rover owNz
), nor more sophisticated sculpted "sporting" estate lines (like the Audi avants and MB wagons, or the cross-overs like the allroad, or Chryslers new Pacifica). The lines seem lost somewhere between a 996 and a...I don't even know what.
However, I do wish you well with your new purchase - really I am quit sincere about that. Hopefully you don't take any contradictory comments personally. Because (other then a random personal insult) there has consistently been shown a high degree of respect - even among the strongest pro and con contributors...
[quote]Originally posted by Karl T:
<strong>Oh, to hell with it, let's just call it what it is, a jacked-up station wagon. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Wish I would have thought of that...
Somewhat seriously (and have said this for over a year here), Porsche could have executed this idea (a sport estate, or cross-over estate) much quicker (and more cost effectively) with less backlash.
Also all this fuss about Porsche needing to get loyal customers to park an SUV next to their "beloved 911s" (said with a smirk from Fearless Freddie in a speech to B-schoolers at Penn - check the archives on that lovely slap in the face) is a farce. Seems to me that this may be more the size of a Lexus or an X5 (both of which have unacceptable rear legroom and no rear "cargo" room - with dogs being my measure), then something more practical size wise.
If these dimensions are smaller in the P-fish then in an allroad, then current Porsche management is in for some serious howling. A 4 door Porsche (truck to boot) with no rear seat leg room or cargo space...why bother?
[quote]John H. in DC Area <strong> The Cayenne and these issues are inextricably linked because ... drum roll please ... Porsche has expressly linked them in their corporate comments. It's no surprise that initial discussions of the Cayenne are fraught with all of these issues.
Would you like John D to push the "reset" button for this forum so it has no posting history? Would you have us pretend that the Cayenne has been universally praised for its styling? What kind of inviting, soft pillow can be laid out to encourage people to make the posts you seem to be looking for before the C's actually seen in the flesh? </strong><hr></blockquote>
Well said, once again...BTW, does the P-fish come with a reset button and soft pillow's?
Happy New Year, hopefully a good one for all... <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
This is a forum about this particular Porsche product, and there clearly is strong opinions on both sides of the isle. And strong opinions here and worldwide...
But to your points, the name doesn't bother me (sure beats VWs T-egg
), but the trade-off of this verses racing does. The fact that it has many parts from the VW parts bin doesn't bother me. No, it should have come from the parts bin (except the V8tt and the other go fast parts), then we could still have factory racing - and a hord of cash (and in this economy cash is king). In addition to being great to watch, factory racing programs build/test/improve automotive technology (that ultimately finds its way into our cars), and builds brand loyalty. What you missed has been the broader debate here over the whole strategy - the business decision making process behind this product, current Porsche management media blitz defending the logic of building this (at this time - and at this price point), and the need to fore go racing to build trucks (as a brand expansion plan). It will continue to be a closely watched lesson in business decision making (the need to spend billions and risk the whole shooting match - to save a company), and a great topic for debate.
As for the design, it would appear (in pictures) to have missed the mark. It neither has the tough up right truck like lines (but the T-egg does, and which the Rover owNz
), nor more sophisticated sculpted "sporting" estate lines (like the Audi avants and MB wagons, or the cross-overs like the allroad, or Chryslers new Pacifica). The lines seem lost somewhere between a 996 and a...I don't even know what. However, I do wish you well with your new purchase - really I am quit sincere about that. Hopefully you don't take any contradictory comments personally. Because (other then a random personal insult) there has consistently been shown a high degree of respect - even among the strongest pro and con contributors...
[quote]Originally posted by Karl T:
<strong>Oh, to hell with it, let's just call it what it is, a jacked-up station wagon. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Wish I would have thought of that...
Somewhat seriously (and have said this for over a year here), Porsche could have executed this idea (a sport estate, or cross-over estate) much quicker (and more cost effectively) with less backlash.
Also all this fuss about Porsche needing to get loyal customers to park an SUV next to their "beloved 911s" (said with a smirk from Fearless Freddie in a speech to B-schoolers at Penn - check the archives on that lovely slap in the face) is a farce. Seems to me that this may be more the size of a Lexus or an X5 (both of which have unacceptable rear legroom and no rear "cargo" room - with dogs being my measure), then something more practical size wise.
If these dimensions are smaller in the P-fish then in an allroad, then current Porsche management is in for some serious howling. A 4 door Porsche (truck to boot) with no rear seat leg room or cargo space...why bother?
[quote]John H. in DC Area <strong> The Cayenne and these issues are inextricably linked because ... drum roll please ... Porsche has expressly linked them in their corporate comments. It's no surprise that initial discussions of the Cayenne are fraught with all of these issues.
Would you like John D to push the "reset" button for this forum so it has no posting history? Would you have us pretend that the Cayenne has been universally praised for its styling? What kind of inviting, soft pillow can be laid out to encourage people to make the posts you seem to be looking for before the C's actually seen in the flesh? </strong><hr></blockquote>
Well said, once again...BTW, does the P-fish come with a reset button and soft pillow's?
Happy New Year, hopefully a good one for all... <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
12-31-2002, 02:48 PM
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I'm so SICK OF THIS:
NO FACTORY RACE PROGRAM.
Even worse only vague talk about one in the future.
And I've been a Cayenne Defender, sorry that's a Land Rover SUV term, call me a Cayenne moderate.
But the investment PAG said was so necessary has ALREADY been made by the MOST profitable car in the biz (as they alternately, and proudly, point out).
What I can't understand is why 2003 dollars aren't earmarked for a 2003 factory effort. Most of the dollars come from sponsors anyway. Sponsors that are readily available as the factory admits.
Rob, I hope Wendy has built you a great truck.
Now it's time for him to deliver on the other promise.
Mike
NO FACTORY RACE PROGRAM.
Even worse only vague talk about one in the future.
And I've been a Cayenne Defender, sorry that's a Land Rover SUV term, call me a Cayenne moderate.
But the investment PAG said was so necessary has ALREADY been made by the MOST profitable car in the biz (as they alternately, and proudly, point out).
What I can't understand is why 2003 dollars aren't earmarked for a 2003 factory effort. Most of the dollars come from sponsors anyway. Sponsors that are readily available as the factory admits.
Rob, I hope Wendy has built you a great truck.
Now it's time for him to deliver on the other promise.
Mike
12-31-2002, 03:21 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Mike in Chi:
<strong>I'm so SICK OF THIS:
NO FACTORY RACE PROGRAM.
Even worse only vague talk about one in the future.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
F'in a bubba...
Me thinks the current management accountants see racing as a waste of money...
<strong>I'm so SICK OF THIS:
NO FACTORY RACE PROGRAM.
Even worse only vague talk about one in the future.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
F'in a bubba...
Me thinks the current management accountants see racing as a waste of money...
12-31-2002, 10:54 PM
#7
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[quote]Originally posted by mpm '95 C4:
<strong>
Me thinks the current management accountants see racing as a waste of money...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Worst yet I heard on the 30 Corvette commercial on speed a few days ago that: "As long as we make a Corvette we will continue to race it!"
Now this is surprising coming from GM a company that I feel has had it head up its A$$ for many years.
I Applaud the decision to race to continue to race the vette in spite of the latest success of the the car in GTS. While only time will tell if they are true in this or just blowing smoke that idea is in the right direction. I am really looking forward to a ProDrive Ferrari vs Vette battle in GTS this next year. Of course a Ferrari vs Vette vs GT2 or better yet Carrera GT would be even better.
Point is that racing is what built Porsche over the years. Their latest decision to distance themselves from many forms of racing has been very up-setting to me.
Of course their state reason is not that racing is not cost effective. No it is that they needed the cash for the Cayenne program. That is what has linked the two together.
Many of us look at it this way.
Boxster.. .No factory racing support. Statement is that it will not be raced. Strike 1
No Prototype at LeMans in '99. Strike 2
No Replacement for the 993 GT2 endurance car. Still have not heard the new GT2 will have factory race technical support. Strike 3
Still no reasonable effort to win Le Mans or Sebring outright in 2000, 2002, 2003. Strike 4
Plus is Carrera GT (Take one strike away)
Building an SUV - Strike 4 (again)
Not racing because the cash is going into the SUV
Strike 5
Hmm 5 Strikes.... In most places that means you are out.
<strong>
Me thinks the current management accountants see racing as a waste of money...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Worst yet I heard on the 30 Corvette commercial on speed a few days ago that: "As long as we make a Corvette we will continue to race it!"
Now this is surprising coming from GM a company that I feel has had it head up its A$$ for many years.
I Applaud the decision to race to continue to race the vette in spite of the latest success of the the car in GTS. While only time will tell if they are true in this or just blowing smoke that idea is in the right direction. I am really looking forward to a ProDrive Ferrari vs Vette battle in GTS this next year. Of course a Ferrari vs Vette vs GT2 or better yet Carrera GT would be even better.
Point is that racing is what built Porsche over the years. Their latest decision to distance themselves from many forms of racing has been very up-setting to me.
Of course their state reason is not that racing is not cost effective. No it is that they needed the cash for the Cayenne program. That is what has linked the two together.
Many of us look at it this way.
Boxster.. .No factory racing support. Statement is that it will not be raced. Strike 1
No Prototype at LeMans in '99. Strike 2
No Replacement for the 993 GT2 endurance car. Still have not heard the new GT2 will have factory race technical support. Strike 3
Still no reasonable effort to win Le Mans or Sebring outright in 2000, 2002, 2003. Strike 4
Plus is Carrera GT (Take one strike away)
Building an SUV - Strike 4 (again)
Not racing because the cash is going into the SUV
Strike 5
Hmm 5 Strikes.... In most places that means you are out.
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12-31-2002, 11:19 PM
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And they lost all their great racing engineering talent - Strike 6
And they aren't racing the Carrera GT - Strike 7
And VW is racing their truck (modified as it is ) - Strike 8
And they used up all their cash - Strike 9
More to come (or should I say less )
Hey I want nothing but success for Porsche, but this P-fish is a total sell-out, and for what? The world gets another mid sized SUV that isn't comfortable for adults in the back seats - but no matter because it's only "heavy duty" role is commuting one person somewhere - most like in traffic to work or going to the mall - like 90% of every other stink'n SUV on the roads today. If you want to drive a Porsche everyday, take your Porsche out of the garage and drive it everyday! Sorry, third glass of a really nice red...
Bully for GM, winning with the Vette has been great for them, and the earlier battles with the Vipers were great. I wish they kept on with the prototypes - they were making some progress later in the year. The new fight with Ferrari's in GTS should be the class to watch in '03.
Great luck in '03 <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
And they aren't racing the Carrera GT - Strike 7
And VW is racing their truck (modified as it is ) - Strike 8
And they used up all their cash - Strike 9
More to come (or should I say less
)Hey I want nothing but success for Porsche, but this P-fish is a total sell-out, and for what? The world gets another mid sized SUV that isn't comfortable for adults in the back seats - but no matter because it's only "heavy duty" role is commuting one person somewhere - most like in traffic to work or going to the mall - like 90% of every other stink'n SUV on the roads today. If you want to drive a Porsche everyday, take your Porsche out of the garage and drive it everyday! Sorry, third glass of a really nice red...
Bully for GM, winning with the Vette has been great for them, and the earlier battles with the Vipers were great. I wish they kept on with the prototypes - they were making some progress later in the year. The new fight with Ferrari's in GTS should be the class to watch in '03.
Great luck in '03 <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
12-31-2002, 11:26 PM
#9
Race Director
[quote]Originally posted by mpm '95 C4:
<strong>And they lost all their great racing engineering talent - Strike 6
And they aren't racing the Carrera GT - Strike 7
And VW is racing their truck (modified as it is ) - Strike 8
And they used up all their cash - Strike 9
</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" /> <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" /> <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />
<strong>And they lost all their great racing engineering talent - Strike 6
And they aren't racing the Carrera GT - Strike 7
And VW is racing their truck (modified as it is ) - Strike 8
And they used up all their cash - Strike 9
</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" /> <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" /> <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />
01-01-2003, 01:47 PM
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I don't get all the criticism either. Lot's of Porsche owners also need and own an SUV. I'm one of them. While I love my ttX50 and like my wife's Boxter, I need an SUV to tow the race cars, haul the family, and handle deep snow. So I'm happy that Porsche is entering the market. Personally, I hate driving high up and having all the lean in every corner, so I was hoping for a breakthrough in high speed handling. The Cayenne may be the answer. Styling is personal, and until I see one I'll withhold judgement. But it's hard to forget that it took at least 5 years for the 928 to grow on me. I hope I like the Cayenne in person. Then I might get rid of my Lexus LX470 AND my Audi A6. AS
01-01-2003, 02:09 PM
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[quote]Originally posted by Alexander Stemer:
<strong>I don't get all the criticism either. Lot's of Porsche owners also need and own an SUV. </strong><hr></blockquote>
For me it been the business judgement, the arrogance of current management, the forced trade off with racing, the time it's taken to get it to maket, and the final design. And now it would appear that it is too small for adults in the back seat - and dogs in the boot. Plus it's been fun to question authority...
Yes, design is personal, and too many people around the world think it missed it. But, whatever, I wish people like you well in your purchase. Bully to those who will actually use it. However, I suspect it'll be a piece of jewelry for most. But, the more that are bought, the sooner Porsche may (may) return to racing. If they don't, people like me will never hold Porsche in the same special regard.
Perhaps that is a good thing since I spend way to much personal time caring about a car company.
<strong>I don't get all the criticism either. Lot's of Porsche owners also need and own an SUV. </strong><hr></blockquote>
For me it been the business judgement, the arrogance of current management, the forced trade off with racing, the time it's taken to get it to maket, and the final design. And now it would appear that it is too small for adults in the back seat - and dogs in the boot. Plus it's been fun to question authority...
Yes, design is personal, and too many people around the world think it missed it. But, whatever, I wish people like you well in your purchase. Bully to those who will actually use it. However, I suspect it'll be a piece of jewelry for most. But, the more that are bought, the sooner Porsche may (may) return to racing. If they don't, people like me will never hold Porsche in the same special regard.
Perhaps that is a good thing since I spend way to much personal time caring about a car company.
01-01-2003, 07:14 PM
#12
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The irony here is this: enthusiasts worldwide have embraced Porsche's low-tech, single cylinder diesel tractors from the dark ages, yet they still have no love for the state-of-the-art, 450hp Cayenne. Go figure... <img src="graemlins/c.gif" border="0" alt="[ouch]" />
01-01-2003, 07:33 PM
#13
This criticism is just another expression of the inherent Porsche owner-pathos.
When the 911 cam eout, the 356 owners yelled that it was not a porsche.
When the 928 came out (clean sheet design, purely porsche R&D to the bone), it was purposely hated by who? 911 owners because why? Because they need to put something down.
The 944 series. Great series. 911 owners, as a whole, do not consider tehm true porsches. Again, I think they they just need something to hate. Its in the pathose since the 356.
The boxter owners, even though they are "lease" crowd, are usually quite dis-associated from the 911 crowd, even the 996 crowd!
The main line of Porsche drivers and owners (many times not the same person) are simply a group of people who for the last 35 years have decided that anything new is bad, and anything that is not rear engined is not a porsche.
The cayenne is a great idea. PLease remember that Porsche, at its core, is really an Engineering Company, and sometimes they make cars or trucks. If I had 80k to spend on a third car (I need two daily driver 928s to be happy), I would get a Cayenne, as long as they add a third row seat somehow.
The people who disgaree with the SUV are (on average) people who believe that a Porsche is a symbol, and that that symbol is sullied by truck.
The people that accept the SUV are (on average) people who believe that Porsche is a great company, and that anything the company makes is in some way SPECIAL.
When the 911 cam eout, the 356 owners yelled that it was not a porsche.
When the 928 came out (clean sheet design, purely porsche R&D to the bone), it was purposely hated by who? 911 owners because why? Because they need to put something down.
The 944 series. Great series. 911 owners, as a whole, do not consider tehm true porsches. Again, I think they they just need something to hate. Its in the pathose since the 356.
The boxter owners, even though they are "lease" crowd, are usually quite dis-associated from the 911 crowd, even the 996 crowd!
The main line of Porsche drivers and owners (many times not the same person) are simply a group of people who for the last 35 years have decided that anything new is bad, and anything that is not rear engined is not a porsche.
The cayenne is a great idea. PLease remember that Porsche, at its core, is really an Engineering Company, and sometimes they make cars or trucks. If I had 80k to spend on a third car (I need two daily driver 928s to be happy), I would get a Cayenne, as long as they add a third row seat somehow.
The people who disgaree with the SUV are (on average) people who believe that a Porsche is a symbol, and that that symbol is sullied by truck.
The people that accept the SUV are (on average) people who believe that Porsche is a great company, and that anything the company makes is in some way SPECIAL.
01-01-2003, 08:39 PM
#14
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[quote]Originally posted by BrendanCampion:
<strong>This criticism is just another expression of the inherent Porsche owner-pathos...
The main line of Porsche drivers and owners (many times not the same person) are simply a group of people who for the last 35 years have decided that anything new is bad, and anything that is not rear engined is not a porsche...
The people who disgaree with the SUV are (on average) people who believe that a Porsche is a symbol, and that that symbol is sullied by truck.
The people that accept the SUV are (on average) people who believe that Porsche is a great company, and that anything the company makes is in some way SPECIAL.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I admit to having a preference to 911s and 993s in particular, but my first ride in a Porsche was in a new 924 turbo - loved it, still do. The first Porsche I thought of buying was a 944 - loved it, still do. Loved the 928 from day one - especially the GTs .
The Boxster went from design to production fairly quickly with minor changes, and I like them as well. These are cars that fit the design goal of form following function. The 996 was a big disappointment at first, but the turbo and the C4S have made great strides. Still can't say I love it...
To your point Porsche is first and foremost an engineering company. But, it was an engineering company that built/tested/proved its technology on the track. From the beginning, everyone involved believed passionately that race breed testing was the only way to improve the product. It's not about a symbol being sullied by a truck - it's about a company that has a taken a turn that may prove irreversible. The era of racing dominance looks to have past, and it would appear that the great legacy of Porsche is now banking on the success of an SUV.
I hope that I am proven totally wrong about my instincts on all of this...
<strong>This criticism is just another expression of the inherent Porsche owner-pathos...
The main line of Porsche drivers and owners (many times not the same person) are simply a group of people who for the last 35 years have decided that anything new is bad, and anything that is not rear engined is not a porsche...
The people who disgaree with the SUV are (on average) people who believe that a Porsche is a symbol, and that that symbol is sullied by truck.
The people that accept the SUV are (on average) people who believe that Porsche is a great company, and that anything the company makes is in some way SPECIAL.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I admit to having a preference to 911s and 993s in particular, but my first ride in a Porsche was in a new 924 turbo - loved it, still do. The first Porsche I thought of buying was a 944 - loved it, still do. Loved the 928 from day one - especially the GTs
. The Boxster went from design to production fairly quickly with minor changes, and I like them as well. These are cars that fit the design goal of form following function. The 996 was a big disappointment at first, but the turbo and the C4S have made great strides. Still can't say I love it...
To your point Porsche is first and foremost an engineering company. But, it was an engineering company that built/tested/proved its technology on the track. From the beginning, everyone involved believed passionately that race breed testing was the only way to improve the product. It's not about a symbol being sullied by a truck - it's about a company that has a taken a turn that may prove irreversible. The era of racing dominance looks to have past, and it would appear that the great legacy of Porsche is now banking on the success of an SUV.
I hope that I am proven totally wrong about my instincts on all of this...
01-01-2003, 09:17 PM
#15
I was trying to circumvent the not-factory racing thing. It is a sore point with many, and I have little reason to argue. Porsche should be racing, but I think thier reasons for NOT, while being unfortunate, may be logical.
I really thing this goes back to when they were almost bankrup in the early nineties. I think it scared the top brass, and they may have learned a permanent lesson.
We all have grandparents. Mine lived through the depression. My grandmother especially, because of this, NEVER spent money unless it was TOTALLY a requirement for life. Many others from that generation are like that.
I equate the dpression thought process to possibly what happened to Porsche. They almost died trying to sell a complex super car (928), an over priced front engined coupe (944S2 and then 968), and the requisite 964. I personally think that if the sports car market didn't vaporize, we would still have at least the 928...
BUt I have digressed...
Maybe they don't want to become paupers again, and they are socking away thier profits?
I really thing this goes back to when they were almost bankrup in the early nineties. I think it scared the top brass, and they may have learned a permanent lesson.
We all have grandparents. Mine lived through the depression. My grandmother especially, because of this, NEVER spent money unless it was TOTALLY a requirement for life. Many others from that generation are like that.
I equate the dpression thought process to possibly what happened to Porsche. They almost died trying to sell a complex super car (928), an over priced front engined coupe (944S2 and then 968), and the requisite 964. I personally think that if the sports car market didn't vaporize, we would still have at least the 928...
BUt I have digressed...
Maybe they don't want to become paupers again, and they are socking away thier profits?