mpm '95 C4

[quote]Originally posted by BrendanCampion:
<strong>I equate the dpression thought process to possibly what happened to Porsche. They almost died trying to sell a complex super car (928), an over priced front engined coupe (944S2 and then 968), and the requisite 964. I personally think that if the sports car market didn't vaporize, we would still have at least the 928...
BUt I have digressed...
Maybe they don't want to become paupers again, and they are socking away thier profits?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hmmm, interesting observations and parallels - for me it was my parents living through the depression and then fighting WWII - and yes no money was spent unnecessarily.

This has been one of my major "bones of contention". They used all their ready cash to build the plant and the P-fish. So the bet is made, and we can only hope that in this really bad economic climate that Porsche didn't just make the same mistake again - this time on a very expensive SUV.

Deanger

Hadn't thought of this before, but what if the real complaint about the Cayenne is the following:

Porsche decided to gamble its future on an SUV.

Not on a sportscar. On an SUV.

mpm '95 C4

[quote]Originally posted by Deanger:
<strong>Hadn't thought of this before, but what if the real complaint about the Cayenne is the following:

Porsche decided to gamble its future on an SUV.

Not on a sportscar. On an SUV.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Yep, I think the con side of the debate is not only emotionally based (one issues like this and design), but also over racing, business logic and so on.

DC John has summed it up very well, "The Cayenne and these issues are inextricably linked."

John..

My beef with the entire new lineup of Porsche cars is this:

They lack build quality.

There are so many of them now that they lack character. I swear, if I see one more Boxster....

Difference Engine

I remember when I worked for a Porsche dealer back in the 90s. The 996 was being preapred for launch, and there was so much debate and criticism of the car.

Everyone hated it. The big complaints included the water cooled engine, the styling, and the part sharing with the Boxster.

The fnniest part is going up to everyone that complained about the 996 ruining Porsche, and asking them how much they love driving the 996 they now own.

everyone complained before they had ever sat in one, driven one, or even seen one in person. Then they got a chance to experience it and realized that it is the best performing and most refined car that Porsche has ever made. True, it doens't have the sculpted fenders that made the 993 so sexy, and true it does looking something like a Boxster, but the fact reamins that when it comes to performance and comfort, it can't be touched by anything in Porsche's lineup.

The same thing has been happeneing with the Cayenne. When all the complaining and crying started, no one had seen it in person, no one had driven it, all we had seen were those initial horrible pictures.

Then the specs came in. Even though on paper it is the greatest SUV ever built, in terms of performance, people ignore that fact. Even though it has more room that it's competitors, people ignore that fact. Now that the European press has driven, and say that it is hands down the best SUV on the market, people still ignore that. I think that if the Europeans can like an SUV, that says something.

No, people who have never driven it and have never seen it in person will still complain because Porsche doesn't race. But they will race again. People complain because it's an SUV. Well big deal. Every company builds them. Porsche is now here to show everyone how it's done.

Whether you agree with Porsche building an SUV or not, you can't deny that it will be the best SUV on the market. It is a Porsche afterall. Porsche knows they have a reputation to maintain, and they wouldn't be releasing it if they didn't believe they had the best vehicle on the market.

And for the people lauding GM and the Corvette. yes, they're racing Corvette. Yes, they're saying the'll always race Corvette. And they've officially been racing Corvette for all of what? 5 years? They always said Cadillac would be a real contender in racing. So why did they yank Cadillac? GM was no integrity. They only say they'll contine racing because their cars are winning. Once the losing begins, I'll guarantee that GM pulls out of Corvette Racing.

Porsche wil race again, they're just not racing at this time. It's not a big deal. It would be a big deal if they said they will never be racing ever again. Which they have not said.

ked

[quote]what if the real complaint about the Cayenne is the following: Porsche decided to gamble its future on an SUV. Not on a sportscar. On an SUV.<hr></blockquote>

From my perspective, the only way Porsche could gamble on a sportscar would be to build one w/ a hybrid powerplant, or perhaps a street-legal single-seater. Porsche making sportscars is a "sure thing", not remotely a gamble - even if they fail. Building vehicles OTHER than sportscars - now that's gambling!

One other point...
I think we should be clear when asserting that "Porsche has pulled out of racing". Porsche does not run factory teams in F1 (smart move, IMO), or endurance prototype racing (sure, I'd like to see them taking part in the entertainment sector of the auto industry, but not at the cost of being a viable sportscar business).

Porsche does support developing & racing sports cars that we can buy & race ourselves - where racing very specifically "improves the breed", especially via endurance events.

Unlike in the 60s & 70s, today I am not so convinced that prototype racing has any direct positive impact on the cars we buy. With GT2 & GT3 models having the (race-bred) capabilities we now see & w/ the Carrera GT coming forward - is prototype racing still the most efficient route to develop new stuff bound for the showroom? Are we topped out in terms of what we can afford & use on the street? Isn't racing "just for the image & branding" a hypocrisy we all eschew?

mpm '95 C4

[quote]Originally posted by Difference Engine:
<strong>Whether you agree with Porsche building an SUV or not, you can't deny that it will be the best SUV on the market. It is a Porsche afterall. Porsche knows they have a reputation to maintain, and they wouldn't be releasing it if they didn't believe they had the best vehicle on the market.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Interesting POV DE, but I wonder what is the real SUV buyer after? For me it would be interior comfort for adult passengers and cargo room for my 3 dogs - at the same time. Porsche looks like they put Autobahn performance numbers ahead of everything else - which I guess anything less would have truly been ridiculed.

[quote]Originally posted by Kevin E Davis:<strong>
Unlike in the 60s & 70s, today I am not so convinced that prototype racing has any direct positive impact on the cars we buy. With GT2 & GT3 models having the (race-bred) capabilities we now see & w/ the Carrera GT coming forward - is prototype racing still the most efficient route to develop new stuff bound for the showroom? Are we topped out in terms of what we can afford & use on the street? Isn't racing "just for the image & branding" a hypocrisy we all eschew? </strong><hr></blockquote>

Great counterpoints - once again, but a bummer non the same. I do like your idea of a hybrid (hydrogen perhaps?) sports car

DJF1

[quote]Originally posted by Kevin E Davis:
<strong>

I think we should be clear when asserting that "Porsche has pulled out of racing". Porsche does not run factory teams in F1 (smart move, IMO), or endurance prototype racing (sure, I'd like to see them taking part in the entertainment sector of the auto industry, but not at the cost of being a viable sportscar business).

</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sorry to disagree here Kevin... I always bring up the example of Ferrari and to this date noone has been able to put a valid argument against it.
Ferrari is an example of a very profitable business which has the most expensive F1 program and really rips the benefits of that. Besides the fact that Ferrari is actually making money of of F-1, you want to talk about brand image? Profits from TV and merchandise? The fact that the ailing mama Fiat gave them to run Maserati? What did Ferrari do with the broke Maserati? Did they built an SUV? naahhh they are just starting racing and built some really nice and sexy sport coupes. How about techology??? Where is an F1 style box on the GT2? Racing is all about cutting your teeth into competition and developing through knowledge and experience new technologies and know how. Porsche is missing the train in my view and maybe they just want to become another giant like BMW or Mercedes who produce thousands upon thousand cars every year, nice cars but not Ferraris. And how all these will affect all of us? Boxster owners know it already. Resale value.
Need to say more?

John Struthers

Well Rob,
Someday, hopefully soon Cayenne owners will control this site and ...Oh Joy... you can get rid of those detractors, mostly the same guy's chipping away at a product they aren't familiar with.
Most of the car mags. are changing their tune for the better and I notice this is coming about albiet slowly, as they have more time with the vehicle -exposure.
As to Porsche not racing: Christopurus had article after article on the Porsche racing programs,. Just no F1 effort. The hardliners want those multi-million dollar, economic disasters - they were and are neat though - that flash in the pan for a year or two then its back to mega-buck R&D. If you have the bucks and want it bad enough the F1 title can be 'bought'. Honda...
Hell, if VW WANTS IT they can have it in about 4-5 years. Engineering, yes, but bottom line its' all about bucks.
Porsche has some incredible vehicles forthcoming,
But, by and large, high end, low production, volume that you will see on the street as often as a Diablo or McLaren F1 (an elderly man, now deceased, here had both.) The Purists also gripe about the cost and market share of the Cayenne, but, price any of the Porsche line. They also argue exclusivity as a reason for owning a Porsche, but for you to own an exclusive -by far- high end Cayenne is what? They talk about being reasonable which I guess makes us whiners for seeking info, and carp that we are unreasonable by virtue of our rude questioning of the incessant hack job they are doing on a vehicle they have little knowledge about. Go figure.
If you do purchase a Cayenne ask the dealer to add the Rennlist site to the glovebox paper work.
You guy's can get together and eventually turn the Cayenne forum into an information exchange site , welcome the curious and dog the detractors...it'll be YOUR site to enjoy.
P.S Wasn't it the same Ferdinand who built the 1st Volkswagen in Stuttgart of all places back in 1935. A flat four no less! He eventually took a different path - thank God - but Porsche, the automobile does have it's roots in VW history.
I can live with that. Some can't.

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Christian S.

[quote]Originally posted by DJF1:
<strong>

Sorry to disagree here Kevin... I always bring up the example of Ferrari and to this date noone has been able to put a valid argument against it.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Hmmm and I thought I'd laid the Ferrari ghost a while back... oh well, in for a penny, in for a ....

Ferrari is an entirely different creature from Porsche. The two have competed against each other most notably in the 60's and 70's, but then as now they attacked motor racing from an entirely different philosophy. Think Ferrari, think Lotus in it's heyday. Both these companies went racing and then sold cars to provide for the ever increasing costs incurred. Ferrari eventually sold out to Fiat in a deal allowing him to continue racing. Lotus effectively died with Chapman although some would argue it was past it's sell by date several years before.

Comparing either with Porsche is an attempt to compare chalk with cheese. Ferrari currently only produce circa 4,200 cars a year. This is peak production and is much higher than it has been in the past. Porsche has always been a car manufacturer that chose to also race. For those suffering from myopia at the moment this is still true.... Car production figures have always been far higher than Ferrari because, you guessed it Porsche is a car manufacturer first and Ferrari by most yardsticks still isn't. Bear in mind too that unlike the Italian marque ownership has been retained by the original family.

So what I hear you all say - Ferrari has never been more succesful in the most expensive motor racing formula ever devised.... why can't Porsche do the same?

For all sorts of reasons - the current ownership of Ferrari is not as clear as you might think. Fiat have recently sold a huge chunk to an Italian bank consortium to prop up their own ailing finances - this was a sale of a share in the one of most succesful brands the world knows - not because of a profitable car or motor racing operation.

The finances behind the racing division and motor car division are linked, but not as clearly as you might think. Huge sponsorship aids the whole racing division, but before you start thinking that sponsorship is the panacea for Porsche's sports car racing program, think again. F1 is a sponsor's wet dream, Le Mans etc is their worst nightmare. Dream up a succesful formula for sports car racing and things might be different - but that's another argument that most here choose to ignore.

Herr Schumachers' opinion of the benefits in racing technology in cars is also worth bearing in mind. Most here will probably dislike him - he has however probably forgotten more about Ferrari than most of us put together could remember. He is utterly dismissive about the subject - those with a modicum of F1 knowledge will understand why. F1 is so far removed from car production that the vast majority of technology will never make the jump. Only in tyre technology will we see huge benefits - from tyre companies.....

The final nail in the old "Why can't Porsche be like Ferrari?" wail is one of working out which Ferrari you'd be able to afford, let alone want to buy. If you can, do and are able to wait the allotted time to get one of the 4,200, bully for you - but the vast majority of Porsche owners can't, don't and won't.

Do the finances on the back of an envelope then pretend you're making the marketing budget pitch to the board of Porsche for a full scale return to Prototype racing..... It didn't add up last year, it doesn't add up this year, there's a glimmer of hope that rule changes might make Le Mans more viable in '04, but the reality is that wholsale changes in the Sports Car Formula itself is required to justify Multi Million Dollar expenditure.

Sorry to say....

Mike in Chi

Kevin et al

I don't think it would be a good idea for PAG to go into F-1, at least not now. too much money, too many impatient boardmembers. They were just starting to win in Cart, and had finished 2nd in the OVERALL championship, when the board pulled the plug

Racing does improve the breed, no matter what level.

Here's the big difference.

For three decades, PAG raced for OVERALL wins, and was the dominant force in Sportscar Racing.

Now it's back to the Fifties racing for CLASS wins.

To me that is a seriously diminished program, which will eventually lead to a brand.

To maintain the brand, PAG needs to win, not win in class.

For a few years I thought the decision to race had to do with Piech/Audi relationship, and the Cayenne was a smokescreen for this.

Now I'm not so sure.

Maybe mpm is right. The beancounters are in control, the engineers totally subservient.

M IN C

Difference Engine

[quote]Originally posted by mpm '95 C4:
<strong>Interesting POV DE, but I wonder what is the real SUV buyer after? For me it would be interior comfort for adult passengers and cargo room for my 3 dogs - at the same time. Porsche looks like they put Autobahn performance numbers ahead of everything else - which I guess anything less would have truly been ridiculed. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Interior comfort and cargo space are definitely high on my priority list. A child on the way and two Malamutes will need to find room in any SUV I own. Until I actually get to see it in person though, I'm not writing off the Cayenne's cargo space. And even if it's not as big as I'd like, at least it will be roomier than the X5. Heck, my Jeep XJ has more room than the X5.

And could you imagine the reaction if Porsche put out an SUV that had great interior space and comfort, yet only average perfromance? Everyone complains now with the great performance, imagine if the performance sucked!

John Murray

I have read this and have been following these Cayenne threads all along. I have liked all the pics and the idea of a Porsche SUV.

What I dont like is how much mpm95 exerts SO MUCH time and effort to say he does not like the Cayenne. Brother, change the channel, choose a different forum, do something, but you gotta stop expending so much energy on your hatred of the Cayenne. It is too much. I have tried to stay quiet about it, but you go overboard. I will also say that I have seen many of mpm95's other posts about other topics and they have been very informative and great reads. I have nothing personal against you, but please I cant stand to read another anti-Cayenne post from you. YOU HAVNT EVEN SEEN ONE.


Good Luck all. Sorry to vent, but enough is enough.

mpm '95 C4

[quote]Originally posted by John Murray:
<strong>What I dont like is how much mpm95 exerts SO MUCH time and effort to say he does not like the Cayenne...but you go overboard.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Would have preferred to take that direct hit over an e-mail Can you tell I'm just a little passionate about Porsche

Problem for me John, is that this is the first Porsche in 40 years that I haven't lusted over (well second - first was the 996 - which was better then no 911, and is growing on me - especially the C4S and turbo), and this is a place to vent - while I'm watching TV on this lovely day.

Just like the debate, sorry if it offends...

Christian S.

[quote]Originally posted by John Murray:
<strong>What I dont like is how much mpm95 exerts SO MUCH time and effort to say he does not like the Cayenne.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Have to disagree with you here John - and I'm probably as horizontally opposed ( )to mpm's views as they come re the Cayenne.

Thing is, mpm makes his views known politely, rationally and eloquentley. Toss in the fact that he knows a few things about marketing and despite our differences he has my utmost respect.

There are other contributors who you could possibly direct your unhappiness towards with more accuracy - those who don't respond to points well made with "a listening ear". However even those who are utterly convinced of their righteous position (whatever it is) add to the debate here - and I reckon the Cayenne forum has been one of the most thought provoking in Rennlist recently.

Free speech and all that, done with respect to other's opinions - an ocean apart - it's what the internet's all about - chill man.... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" /> <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />