Cayenne hesitation....learn to live with it
 

From July Pano, pg 85.

2004 Cayenne hesitation from the line:
So many times, I have had the dealer tell me things are "normal", just because there is the same problem on other vehicles. Most recently, they told me the hesitation from a standstill is "normal" and so I am living with the way the vehicle performs. I am used to the hesitation, but recently my wife drove my Cayenne S for a few days, and complained to me about the hesitation. My wife is not patient, and if the vehicle won't go when she steps on the gas, I think it could become dangerous. I have read that turning PSM off may eliminate the hesitation somewhat, but I tried it, and it's only slight. I have driven loaner Cayennes, and the hesitation is the same. Just because "all other Cayennes" may exhibit the same problem, shouldn't make it right.
Smith:
Unfortunately, the dealer is helpless about certain issues, the hesitation is one. Some things reduce it, such as throttle plate adaptation and possibly an update to the DME control unti to get the latest software in it. See if the dealer can do that and go from there.

Smith:
Unfortunately, the dealer is helpless about certain issues, the hesitation is one. Some things reduce it, such as throttle plate adaptation and possibly an update to the DME control unti to get the latest software in it. See if the dealer can do that and go from there.

Hesitation? What Hesitation? We all have hesitation? Hmmm.. Pass the Kool-Aid with the Rum additive.. I finally found a problem that I don't have?! :confused:

I don't write it, I simply report (type) it.
A search in this forum will yield LOTS of complaints about eGas throttle lag/hesitation.

You may in fact have it, but you've gotten so used to it you don't remember what a normal throttle response feels like!

I had it SLIGHTLY initially but when they loaded new DME software and I re-trained the "learning" by having them null it out, I haven't had the issue.. In fact, a friend who has a S also rode with me on a golf outing and commented about how did I get rid of the lag on take-off at lights, etc. I haven't asked him about it as that has been over a year.. Think he has recently got on Rennlist.. I will see him sooner than later and see if DME re-map, etc. worked for him.. AND YES, I know that many have tried that and it didn't work.. but I didn't have it initally much at all to start with. :biggulp: And yes, I know you think I'm back to drinking the official Cayenne Kool-Aid... but truly am being objective. :bigbye:

When they take away the cable you no longer have control, the ECU does. I will always have a problem with that. Audi is also very intrusive and trying to make you a "smoother" driver. Probably the same programming. My S4 throttle responce was very slow when rolling and sharp and crisp when stopped. Contributed to it being traded. The Cayenne seems very similar, but with the nature of the vehicle not so much an issue.
Madfox, I have noted that it always starts in second gear, did this new programming use first as default?

I had the DME update performed. It only starts in 1st when cold (1st startup in the morning). I noticed accleration is a bit brisker, but hesitation, however slight, is still there. Overall, it doesn't bother me and I still love the Cayenne!

Try the Fabspeed cat bypass pipes. For $500 you can elimitate your hesitation issues. Best aftermarket money I've ever spent. Low cost, no warranty issues and great sound.

Still starts in D2 most of the time. Very cold days (under 40) or if car has sat for several days and you are driving slowly. I noticed after a few days out of town and I'm driving in the parking deck at the airport that it is in D1. while I'm creeping forward because the darn parking is so tight.. but then that is another thing I love about the Cayenne.. turning radius is so small.. no K turns..

I would recommend that all that have hesitation issue bring it to the dealer's attention so that if enough complaints are in the system that perhaps PAG/PCNA will push for another DME "tweek".. can't hurt. until then enjoy the Kool-Aid! :biggulp:

I tuned off PSM upon start up and ran it that way for about a month on my 04TT. Still starts in 2nd but no more hesitation at all.

If you drive with PSM off does it solve the problem ? Bearing in mind its never really off and will protect you if you screw up.

Yes, immediately with PSM off, the hesitation was gone..apparently it begins remapping itself after a while.. Got this from a much earlier thread

When you guys refer to PSM do you mean "PASM" (Passive Air Suspension Management) or the "PTM" (Passive Traction Managment")? What do either of these have to do with the throttle, and if you turn it off, how is it still on if you are in trouble. Sorry if I am missing something obvious here.

Neither.
PSM is "Porsche Stability Management"......or around track circles "Please Save Me".
It is the button on your central dashboard (exclamation point with a circular arrow symbol around it....check your owner's manual for a graphic and the corresponding intstrument panel cluster symbol) which you can push to 'turn it off'

Of course, it's never really off, as if the vehicle begins to sense that you are:

A. standing on the brake pedal with more than 3X the combined body weight of yourself and the fat lady of the opera (you know, the one with the Viking helmet and braids)
B. moving the car in more axes simultaneously than Isaac Newton himself could understand
C. the in cabin microphone senses the phrase "Oh Sh!t" at a level way above the background noise

then PSM turns itself back on, taking control of just about everything except steering (independent ABS, engine RPM, gear selection) and tries to get the vehicle back under control.
Disclaimer: PSM is not responsible for the dry cleaning bill regarding the stripe you would have likely left in your shorts if you REALLY needed PSM to be Please Save Me.

It has been discussed in back issues of Panorama, sorry I can't remember which issues.

IIRC, it made it debut with Porsche on with the 996 family. I spent a day down at Road Atlanta and was lucky enough to have David Murry in the passenger seat on the skidpad in a PSM modified 996.
With PSM off, you could throttle steer your way around the skidpad as you would normally expect.
He then tunred PSM On, and asked me to get into 2nd gear, traveling around the skidpad and to nail the gas to the floor. I did and what you heard/felt were all the systems of the car (independent ABS, rev limiter, etc) all working to keep the car traveling in a circle around the skidpad, in spite of what I told the car to do by nailing the gas.
He then reached over while we were tooling around, flipped PSM OFF and the car immediately did about 3-4 360deg spins at wide open throttle before you could catch the car.
Pretty neat demo.

Cool. But why would that cause hesitation in simple straight-line acceleration? Does PSM brake the car or down shift it because it thinks you are trying to accelerate too fast? Seems way over engineered.

Just ordered an '06 CS due to be delivered in Oct. and I am becoming really concerned about hesitation and hope this is better in the '06 builds.

You don't need to be, its really something that is easy to live with, is it perfect ?, no, but what is ?, the "!"

The A4 and A6 Loaners with TipTronic I have had from the dealer all had similar issues, we have just found a name for it. They did not have the ( ! )

Sorry rome a couple of in jokes may float over you for now.

rome,
There was a recent Panorama article (996TT Tip vs 6spd) by Walter Rohrl that had a very good description of the modern Tiptronic gearbox.

IIRC, there were something like 200 software 'patterns' algorithmically available to control the transmission in response to various inputs: temperature, rpm, ABS, eGas/throttle position, DRIVING habits (yes, really), etc.
Basically the Tiptronic will adapt its shift points in reponse to what it believes wil be current driving conditions based on past inputs.
The DME works in a similar fashion, although much more strictly controlled due to the nature of controlling an engine/ emissions, etc

Since PSM is tied into the DME and Tiptronic (via CAN bus), there will be different algorithms initially applied based on the car's 'understanding' that by disabling PSM, there will be 'spirited driving'; so the transmission may start out in D1 rather than D2, the eGas curves will be altered, etc....the end result being less perceived throttle hesitation lag (throw in turbo lag and spool ups just to further complicate engine management matters if you want to).
Now, if you drive long enough with PSM off, the Tiptronic control unit will begin to 'adapt' to this as your 'normal' driving........however, if you drive very conservatively, PSM on, trying to maximize fuel economy, you will end up with a different vehicle response.

Simple, huh?

Had to use the "!" didn't you.
Superman had Kryptonite, I get stuck with "!". Fine.

That's it, keep poking the tiger with a pointed stick.....then when someone forgets to latch the door to the cage, DON'T blame the tiger.

True, but once he takes delivery, it will all of a sudden make sense.

P.S. NO, I'm NOT sharing my Purplesaurus Rex with the new guys......

You crack me up !

:-)

Whoa! Seems lilke a no-brainer to keep PSM off if it activates anyway when needed, and keeping it on lags performance and throttle response.

Is there any good reason to keep it "on" otherwise?

Well there is a reason, if your commuting, you will most certainly spill your coffee, the so called "lurch".

OK if its only you (you can drive home and change) but if your significant other is the passenger thats another issue.

Then the PSM on can give pretty smooth responses.

Hmmm... so what the heck happens when you add a trailer into the mix? I'm think of getting one as a tow vehicle, does this exacerbate the problem?

No you basically drive in manual mode with the trailer and keep it out of 6 for the most part.

Quote
"Hmmm... so what the heck happens when you add a trailer into the mix? I'm think of getting one as a tow vehicle, does this exacerbate the problem?"

Nothing to the response but you will see !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, Just ask Lewis.
Pass the kool-aid

Come on Lance ! thats baiting the monster !!!

I can hear the growls down here!

Yes, if towing you should be in manual mode. I rarely hit 6th when towing. Maybe on level ground or downhill. Lewis and I both wonder if anyone towing with an enclosed car trailer can get it to work the lights without the famous ! and the "check trailer lights" message????? I could only get it to work properly with a small single axle enclosed go-kart trailer...

I'm afraid to ask...

Ditto, Mudman2.. LTC is on a roll. He must have spiked the Kool-Aid per his post on "spiced coolant" .... the last few posts are some of his best humor filled good info yet.. Darn it.. I'm not at home where I can get to the Cayenne humor liquid stuff and "be LTC happy", too!! (whoops !! unintentionally... wait, maybe Lewis can handle the !!! whilest sipping PurplesaurusRex? .. funny stuff... !!!!!!!! (okay, just want to see if the happy juice will keep biting sarcasm from emerging!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:icon501: :biggulp:

hmmm, hesitation ? Don't have that. Ocassional vibration with 20's yes. Choice between the two Cayenne driving characteristics(LOL)..I will take the "good" vibrations.... ;)

Hey Chris long time no hear !

Thanks, although I sometimes miss the mark, I do try and keep things lively in here....sometimes it's a bit too bland.

Be afraid, be VERY afraid.

If you have sufficient PeptoBismol in the house, are not allergic to shellfish and do not get motion sick, please feel free to continue reading at your own risk......


There are some "issues" with the integrated bulb detection circuitry built into the Cayenne as extended to the 7pin Pollack trailer connection.

In a nutshell, depending on the type of lighting load you present to the Cayenne at the 7pin connector, you will end up driving around with a "!" Check Trailer Lights warning permanently emblazened on your dashboard. Of course when you really DO have a trailer lighting issue, the warning will disappear and you will drive at night with no trailer lighting.

LED's appear to be out; my 20' Cargopro enclosed aluminum (purchased from Atlantic Coast in Charlton...good guys) is full LED. Myself and JFScheck have LED trailers, same problem.
Too many (how many is too many, Porsche doesn't know) standard incandescents can do the same thing; ask skl, he has an 18' ATC aluminum enclosed with standard incandescent and he has to unscrew a few running/marker lights....otherwise his headlights go out in response to the 'fault' condition.

On a positive note, prior to the first recall/TSB/service action for this condition (W406 IIRC), you would get the BEEP "!" Check Trailer Lights message EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU STEPPED ON THE BRAKE! So, things have improved.

BTW, NONE of this is covered ANYWHERE in the Porsche sales or service documentation, NOTHING in the owner's manual...not even in the 'Warning Display Messages' section. Nada, zippo.

In doubt, don't be. I am an electrical engineer (with a genius level IQ (yes, and some 'people skills' issues as well)) who has designed automotive electronics and has a European patent pending on this technique applied to NOT lighting......so trust me when I know exactly what went wrong in the design assumption phase at PAG and subsequent design and fabrication at Westfalia.

Now, if you will all excuse me, it's time to mix up a batch of Purplesaurus Rex, the OFFICIAL drink of the Rennlist DE forum, and try very hard to forget that I actually own this vehicle.

Best of luck with your decision.

Now that you mention it, weren't we promised a new High Power (300mW) control unit.

I bet the 06's have it ! time to take the !!!!!! to town again I think !

:biggulp:

Hey, what did happen to that new control unit? :eek:

Wish me luck guys, that drawing for a chance to purchase the PCA Porsche is just 1 day and a wake up away...

Was towing the trailer today getting it ready for a trip this weekend... Boy, I need a double... :biggulp:

That's better... So yes, she did a great job towing the trailer, just wish that damn "!" would go away... :surr:

Hi Mike...Not much too bitch about with the CT other than to strum the violin on my relatively minor vibration issue. Other than that, it's been great and NO Oil consumption unlike many other turbo owners. Focus has shifted to the GT3, for I am leaving the ranks of "Garage Queener" and tracking the wench finally. :burnout:
Hope all is well with you ! :D

Clearly, it's those crappy trailers you guys own. :) I'll have a lighter load... Trailex enclosed ;) (Actually I have a cargo pro open at the moment from AC, the AC boys are great! Trailex coming next month. )

Just a thought, does anyone know if the Toureg has the same issues?

New control unit coming????? Sure hope so. I guess I'm lucky to only have the ! all the time. It could be a DIASTER if it went out along with all the lights on the trailer on a long tow home at NIGHT!!

As for the Toureg, almost bought one. Would assume they have the same problems if it's a Westfalia unit in it too, which I also assume is the case...

Lewis,

Since you live in Mass, go to Herb Chambers, the dealership the the Boston area.

I had the same problem, like everyone else. Then the service manager (Rayan) installed this new update for me. Since then the car throttle has been excelent and the problem went away.

Good luck :D

My "Check Trailer Lights" went away. Some time ago, I had a "Check Hitch" warning, and the dealer did some work with the help of PCNA. They claim that they did a software update that had to do with some European spec that didn't work in the US. Everything works great now with no warnings.

cayenne hesitation
 

Unfortunately this is an inherant issue. We don't all get the opportunity to thrash the living daylights out of the tranny to make its shift patterns better.
What I have found though is with enough complaining about the issue they will change the transmission control unit. The throttle adaption does change the way it drives and does get rid of driver history but because of its memory function and our driving conditions it adapts to a standard of running.
When the transmission control unit is changed they replace it with a later model 2005 unit which thinks and changes alot faster. You will also find its drive downshift patterns are alot quicker too. So whinge a bit more and you will reap the benefits.

I notice you're in Australia- I wonder if changing the unit applies to US cars???

Yes it does. In fact there are at least 4 05 control units. The latest is sweet.

My dealer has been pretty good about updates- have to call him and "complain" and see if he'll put in the newest control unit.

What build date on 05's got the latest update?? I had my 05 in a couple of weeks ago for 20K service and complained about hesitation and was told I had all of the updates :-(

ps Lewis,
could you please redirect your efforts to hesitation and not the blasted trailer lights! :-)

I do not know, I had a pre production on my 04, and when they replaced it a month ago I could feel the difference.

Just a friendly bump! Wondering if after 10 full years Porsche had finally fixed this problem and given us all what we paid for! Or, if we were all left out to dry as only an automobile manafacture could legally do! :banghead:

This problem was fixed in the 957, all 955's had it to a lesser or greater extent.

There are many descriptions and discussions here and elsewhere on the subject including court records

The problem was the need for economy recognizing that most people poodle their cars by holding the transmission program in too low a gear, it feels like an engine pick up problem but its not.

The E-Gas is another problem where the system learns the drivers habits and adapts to those habits. The result is another form of retardation

Resetting using PIWIS will make the car much faster for a while then it re learns your habits and gets sluggish again

You can also drive like a mad person for 30 minutes which will give the same effect.

The problem was solved on 957 by adding a Sport Mode which overrides the adaptive e-gas system

The transmissions in 03/04 were all major issues, the 05 transmission system and control units were better, my 04 had all that retrofitted under warranty to attempt to fix it

Another good test to see the state of your transmission, turn PSM off and see if the car now starts off in first

If you have any doubts ltc can verify with me the legal ramifications

I don't know if anyone was killed when joining a freeway trying to kick down in front of a SEMI, I know I nearly was

In the end you get to know the car and use the tip when you sense the problem

No fix was provided by Porsche

Mudman! I have truly missed this forum. The past few years have been a blur with a new biz consuming me 24/7.

To new forum users. The answer to hesitation is that all of us who owned alpha/betas NEARLY DIED learning how the adaptive driving and e-Gas responded in our Pigs! Thus many of us drive manually even with automatics in their Cayennes when around town. No clutch but it's habit now even in my '06 Tit.S.

Hi Alan hope you are well

I gave you all sorts of info on what issues it could be. You appear to not have taken any steps to actually troubleshoot the problem. So, I'm not sure what you are expecting.

Why are you so against taking it to a Porsche dealer? It's like 80 bucks for a diagnosis.

Find me a Porsche dealer in Montana, and I'll find you a unicorn. Plus, most "Diagnosis" that are done in a single day are not thorough enough to determine the actual root cause of anything complex. Failed alternators, half shafts, and easy junk..sure. But troubleshooting an E-Gas signal to the ECU and how that's being interpreted by the ECU is a totally different story. Hence the reason that nearly every throttle delay post mentioning "Took it to a dealer to have diagnosed.." ends with "They said there's no problem...".

I'm not going to waste my money being lied to. Porsche themselves have yet to mention that this ever was an issue, on any model, and it's been 10+ years. Why would they admit to it now? That could cause a recall seeing as how it's a safety issue..and seeing as how the Cayenne is one of the most produced cars in their history, I doubt they want to recall it.

Villain... Don't waste your breath... Wrinkledpanties is one of those guys who says "without proof you are wrong" even though he has no proof for his argument... I am starting to get on 6speed and they seem more like the crowd that doesn't debate the stoopid things and instead tries to think of creative ways to solve problems. This forum is more for people who need help resetting the trip odometer! Haha

The interpretation of the e-gas digital signals are of interest, in so far as the DME unit and its programming are compatible (DME = ECU)

The PST unit used by dealers to diagnose issues and flash the various control units was replace with the much more sophisticated PIWIS which does take about an hour to run but can bring units up to correct flash version where needed. Important because its staggering the number of new car owners who did not take the time to get this done while under warranty

Many units were improved during the years where this problem really was extensively analyzed, not just by them but by us EE's who had a background. indeed we were the way dealers got information in the early days.

Even if you can theoretically fault find in the end its just speculative since in order to confirrn you need a status check on the control units by a dealer or rich indy.

Bottom line, unless you want to invest in a PWIS (last i heard 12K$ a year subscription), and yes some people did buy one then without dealer inout you cannot adjust anything but you can buy a placebo

Oh and one thing I forgot, count yourself lucky that you have a TT and not the S, on the S it is ten times as bad

Tuners' almost always try to program for net throttle response, so it wouldn't surprise if a tune job would fix that in a 955.

My 957 has great throttle response from a stop. My complaint is the gearing. 1st gear is for stump pulling but if I hit it more than about 3/4 throttle from a stop, it wants to downshift to 1st. So even with a 957 there is a delay if stepping too hard and it causes downshifting. I have learned to step on it from a stop about as hard as I can and stay in 2nd gear. It is surprisingly quick and always leaves the rest of the cars well behind me. But I do wish Porsche had selected different gear ratios to make 1st gear more useable, but we all know they built it as a super tow vehicle and for some off-roading.

My '04 CTT 955 definitely had an accelerator lag and would power spike all at once with the turbo. I researched and came across Vivid Racing and their ECU flash - it was DIY - you buy the cable and they email you the mod file after you upload your record of the ecu program. It's all done thru the odb reader and takes a PC laptop. Goes quickly - no techs or special skills needed.

Now that she's flashed, throttle response is way faster and the turbo is much more controlled and smooth as accelerate. Like an entirely different truck. Recommended...they call it "VRTuned".


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Like Lionworks Auto I also have a tune ('06 CTTS) but from Eurocharged. The Eurocharged tune probably only bumps up the power (on a CTTS) a little as there probably isn't as much left on the table as Porsche already bumped up the Boost but the tune did improve the throttle response too. Probably half way between stock and like it is when you turn the PSM off. I wish it was better but it is improved. I've always been skeptical of the Sprint Booster but there have been good reviews here. Maybe the linear response increase of the Sprint Booster is where Porsche really failed? I would like to try one before I paid the money though as I guess I'm skeptical in that I know it doesn't add power, just changes the linear range of the E-throttle response curve. More feedback on here from those that have it might convince me though.
One question that some here may know, do the Touareg's have the same problem? They virtually use the same E-throttle system, same design, same manufacturer, but of course different software. Could Porsche have really screwed it up that bad or have their Contract for the E-throttle software off from VAG's by that much??? Seems like it.

Has anyone tried this? https://www.vividracing.com/tuned-st...150841692.html

I bought a 09, GTS in Jan with 105k miles. I was thinking of doing the secondary cat bypass. I do see hesitation at times. I need to pay more attention to it so I can describe it fully. I noticed it just the other day and thought this is odd. I'll report back.

Still sounds like coil packs. Did you use a quality brand like Beru or something generic?