increase in 1st time posters with mechanicals
05-24-2018, 10:52 PM
#2
Burning Brakes
Or maybe the resale value of these things has reached rock bottom and they are now being sold with "issues" rather than being fixed up before sale.
05-25-2018, 09:54 AM
#5
Rennlist Member
The rationalization is the same whether buying now or if you one for years. All of us are going to have increasing maintenance requirements. I do the math fairly often, mostly because I love car shopping, and replacing my '06 Turbo S with a new model would require at least a GTS for the same performance. My TTS has a factory 0-60 of 4.7 and a new GTS is still over 5 but the ol' girl has probably lost a few 10ths so we'll call it even. Considering payments, Virginia sales and property tax, it isn't even close. Not even in styling or amenities. I spend a lot of time in my car at soccer games, between business meetings, etc. and the interior on the 955 is far more comfy for just hanging out than the newer, sportier interiors. You ever push the passenger seat all the way forward and just chill in the back seat? Like a limo. It's worth a few grand a year to keep her on the road and looking tip top. There will always be a long line of idiots ready to buy M's, AMG's, TTS's as they depreciate to affordable not doing the research and getting hit with major repair sticker shock. But that doesn't mean it's a bad deal. Well, maybe the AMG's. I just think the fleet of 955's and 957's is aging to where you're bound to see a LOT more repair threads.
05-25-2018, 12:00 PM
#6
Most of the clueless new owners who are stepping into these because they can get a 4 digit priced Porsche are going to get their *** handed to them at the first or second repair bill months down the road.
At 15 years and counting there are going to be a lot of maintenance and deferred maintenance items showing up. Few of the 3rd and 4th hand owners will be prepared for the complexity and cost. There are countless parts on these beasts that are going to be increasingly subject to failure as they age. We know about the early common ones like hatch struts and coolant pipes, but with age there will be things that switch from rare to common. Most notably some of the accessories that are regularly and easily replaced on other vehicles, but not this one. One in particular comes to my mind because I am one a small group on the boards who has had to replace my alternator early. I don't think the brushes wore out on mine, but they certainly will on all alternators with enough hours. There are countless small items, though...
All the plastic parts that get heat cycled and mechanically stressed are going to start failing. The coolant pipes in the intake were the canary in the coal mine. They failed early because they experienced the most extreme heat cycles due to their location. The Tee's behind the engine on the CTT's were the second canary because they were the second most prone to extreme heat cycling. The vacuum lines under and around the intake have become more prevalent and in time all will need to be replaced. You can bet your *** that the rest of plastic connections and fittings for the vacuum and cooling systems will follow as they continue to age and experience the high heat that is produced under the hood of these vehicles.
Many of the rubber parts will fail as well. The numerous electric motors will have brushes and bearings wear out (stepper motors in the interior, cooling fans, throttle body blade motors, vacuum pumps, aux electric coolant pumps, fuel pumps, air compressors, transfer case stepper motors, etc.) - some of these are already pretty common like the HVAC blower and fuel pumps, electromechanical relays all over the place - we have seen early signs of the major PITA ones on the steering column lock already, and as people keep adding more miles to these V8's we will see more bore scoring just like with the other affected Porsche models.
These cars see extraordinary heat under the hood due to the nature of the vehicle and the way it is all so tightly packaged. Has anyone ever run temperature tests to see if running without the plastic belly pans might possibly reduce the under hood temps and heat soak of all the components? I am also going to look into getting my fans programmed to come on earlier to try to limit the under hood temps to some degree as well. Over time I have replaced many, many plastic and rubber parts, however the list seems endless and at $35-$200 per grossly overpriced part and with such limited access due to packaging it is daunting.
At 15 years and counting there are going to be a lot of maintenance and deferred maintenance items showing up. Few of the 3rd and 4th hand owners will be prepared for the complexity and cost. There are countless parts on these beasts that are going to be increasingly subject to failure as they age. We know about the early common ones like hatch struts and coolant pipes, but with age there will be things that switch from rare to common. Most notably some of the accessories that are regularly and easily replaced on other vehicles, but not this one. One in particular comes to my mind because I am one a small group on the boards who has had to replace my alternator early. I don't think the brushes wore out on mine, but they certainly will on all alternators with enough hours. There are countless small items, though...
All the plastic parts that get heat cycled and mechanically stressed are going to start failing. The coolant pipes in the intake were the canary in the coal mine. They failed early because they experienced the most extreme heat cycles due to their location. The Tee's behind the engine on the CTT's were the second canary because they were the second most prone to extreme heat cycling. The vacuum lines under and around the intake have become more prevalent and in time all will need to be replaced. You can bet your *** that the rest of plastic connections and fittings for the vacuum and cooling systems will follow as they continue to age and experience the high heat that is produced under the hood of these vehicles.
Many of the rubber parts will fail as well. The numerous electric motors will have brushes and bearings wear out (stepper motors in the interior, cooling fans, throttle body blade motors, vacuum pumps, aux electric coolant pumps, fuel pumps, air compressors, transfer case stepper motors, etc.) - some of these are already pretty common like the HVAC blower and fuel pumps, electromechanical relays all over the place - we have seen early signs of the major PITA ones on the steering column lock already, and as people keep adding more miles to these V8's we will see more bore scoring just like with the other affected Porsche models.
These cars see extraordinary heat under the hood due to the nature of the vehicle and the way it is all so tightly packaged. Has anyone ever run temperature tests to see if running without the plastic belly pans might possibly reduce the under hood temps and heat soak of all the components? I am also going to look into getting my fans programmed to come on earlier to try to limit the under hood temps to some degree as well. Over time I have replaced many, many plastic and rubber parts, however the list seems endless and at $35-$200 per grossly overpriced part and with such limited access due to packaging it is daunting.
05-25-2018, 01:35 PM
#7
Drifting
Last summer, I pointed a laser thermometer at my thermoplastic valve covers, after a freeway run = 488F....yeeeow!!!!
Just LOOKING at the Turbos....seared my Retinas.
Just LOOKING at the Turbos....seared my Retinas.
Last edited by Dilberto; 05-25-2018 at 02:08 PM.
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05-25-2018, 01:42 PM
#8
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Love the thought on the fans
05-25-2018, 01:46 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Aug 2005
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Most of the clueless new owners who are stepping into these because they can get a 4 digit priced Porsche are going to get their *** handed to them at the first or second repair bill months down the road.
At 15 years and counting there are going to be a lot of maintenance and deferred maintenance items showing up. Few of the 3rd and 4th hand owners will be prepared for the complexity and cost. There are countless parts on these beasts that are going to be increasingly subject to failure as they age. We know about the early common ones like hatch struts and coolant pipes, but with age there will be things that switch from rare to common. Most notably some of the accessories that are regularly and easily replaced on other vehicles, but not this one. One in particular comes to my mind because I am one a small group on the boards who has had to replace my alternator early. I don't think the brushes wore out on mine, but they certainly will on all alternators with enough hours. There are countless small items, though...
All the plastic parts that get heat cycled and mechanically stressed are going to start failing. The coolant pipes in the intake were the canary in the coal mine. They failed early because they experienced the most extreme heat cycles due to their location. The Tee's behind the engine on the CTT's were the second canary because they were the second most prone to extreme heat cycling. The vacuum lines under and around the intake have become more prevalent and in time all will need to be replaced. You can bet your *** that the rest of plastic connections and fittings for the vacuum and cooling systems will follow as they continue to age and experience the high heat that is produced under the hood of these vehicles.
Many of the rubber parts will fail as well. The numerous electric motors will have brushes and bearings wear out (stepper motors in the interior, cooling fans, throttle body blade motors, vacuum pumps, aux electric coolant pumps, fuel pumps, air compressors, transfer case stepper motors, etc.) - some of these are already pretty common like the HVAC blower and fuel pumps, electromechanical relays all over the place - we have seen early signs of the major PITA ones on the steering column lock already, and as people keep adding more miles to these V8's we will see more bore scoring just like with the other affected Porsche models.
These cars see extraordinary heat under the hood due to the nature of the vehicle and the way it is all so tightly packaged. Has anyone ever run temperature tests to see if running without the plastic belly pans might possibly reduce the under hood temps and heat soak of all the components? I am also going to look into getting my fans programmed to come on earlier to try to limit the under hood temps to some degree as well. Over time I have replaced many, many plastic and rubber parts, however the list seems endless and at $35-$200 per grossly overpriced part and with such limited access due to packaging it is daunting.
At 15 years and counting there are going to be a lot of maintenance and deferred maintenance items showing up. Few of the 3rd and 4th hand owners will be prepared for the complexity and cost. There are countless parts on these beasts that are going to be increasingly subject to failure as they age. We know about the early common ones like hatch struts and coolant pipes, but with age there will be things that switch from rare to common. Most notably some of the accessories that are regularly and easily replaced on other vehicles, but not this one. One in particular comes to my mind because I am one a small group on the boards who has had to replace my alternator early. I don't think the brushes wore out on mine, but they certainly will on all alternators with enough hours. There are countless small items, though...
All the plastic parts that get heat cycled and mechanically stressed are going to start failing. The coolant pipes in the intake were the canary in the coal mine. They failed early because they experienced the most extreme heat cycles due to their location. The Tee's behind the engine on the CTT's were the second canary because they were the second most prone to extreme heat cycling. The vacuum lines under and around the intake have become more prevalent and in time all will need to be replaced. You can bet your *** that the rest of plastic connections and fittings for the vacuum and cooling systems will follow as they continue to age and experience the high heat that is produced under the hood of these vehicles.
Many of the rubber parts will fail as well. The numerous electric motors will have brushes and bearings wear out (stepper motors in the interior, cooling fans, throttle body blade motors, vacuum pumps, aux electric coolant pumps, fuel pumps, air compressors, transfer case stepper motors, etc.) - some of these are already pretty common like the HVAC blower and fuel pumps, electromechanical relays all over the place - we have seen early signs of the major PITA ones on the steering column lock already, and as people keep adding more miles to these V8's we will see more bore scoring just like with the other affected Porsche models.
These cars see extraordinary heat under the hood due to the nature of the vehicle and the way it is all so tightly packaged. Has anyone ever run temperature tests to see if running without the plastic belly pans might possibly reduce the under hood temps and heat soak of all the components? I am also going to look into getting my fans programmed to come on earlier to try to limit the under hood temps to some degree as well. Over time I have replaced many, many plastic and rubber parts, however the list seems endless and at $35-$200 per grossly overpriced part and with such limited access due to packaging it is daunting.
05-25-2018, 04:08 PM
#11
Racer
One of my coworkers was interested in getting a 955 for himself. I asked how he liked four-figure repair bills. He got a new Explorer instead.
The trick to owning an old German car is to always leave one thing broken. In my case at the moment it's the stepper motor in the transfer case that's throwing a "Four Wheel Drive System Failure" message. That one is actually going to get fixed though. I should probably break something inconsequential after that and then I'll be all good.
The exception to this rule is old BMWs. My E39 wouldn't wait until I fixed something before it broke something else.
At this point I'm so far into repairs and maintenance spent on this thing that it would be financially suicidal for me not to run it into the ground...
The trick to owning an old German car is to always leave one thing broken. In my case at the moment it's the stepper motor in the transfer case that's throwing a "Four Wheel Drive System Failure" message. That one is actually going to get fixed though. I should probably break something inconsequential after that and then I'll be all good.
The exception to this rule is old BMWs. My E39 wouldn't wait until I fixed something before it broke something else.
At this point I'm so far into repairs and maintenance spent on this thing that it would be financially suicidal for me not to run it into the ground...
05-25-2018, 04:24 PM
#12
Wow. I have a large bag of NTC 10k thermistors. I install them in the motors and controllers of all my electric vehicles to rollback power when certain thresholds are met to avoid frying copper windings, hall sensors, and FET's. I am tempted to do some experiments and take some readings on the Cayenne. Every time it starts getting warm outside and I pop the hood after running the engine I am always in awe at the under hood temps. I am pretty sure these cars need more airflow under the hood for better longevity. I guess there is always the hot rodder trick of the ol' hood delete!
05-25-2018, 04:38 PM
#13
Rennlist Member
One of my coworkers was interested in getting a 955 for himself. I asked how he liked four-figure repair bills. He got a new Explorer instead.
The trick to owning an old German car is to always leave one thing broken. In my case at the moment it's the stepper motor in the transfer case that's throwing a "Four Wheel Drive System Failure" message. That one is actually going to get fixed though. I should probably break something inconsequential after that and then I'll be all good.
The exception to this rule is old BMWs. My E39 wouldn't wait until I fixed something before it broke something else.
At this point I'm so far into repairs and maintenance spent on this thing that it would be financially suicidal for me not to run it into the ground...
The trick to owning an old German car is to always leave one thing broken. In my case at the moment it's the stepper motor in the transfer case that's throwing a "Four Wheel Drive System Failure" message. That one is actually going to get fixed though. I should probably break something inconsequential after that and then I'll be all good.
The exception to this rule is old BMWs. My E39 wouldn't wait until I fixed something before it broke something else.
At this point I'm so far into repairs and maintenance spent on this thing that it would be financially suicidal for me not to run it into the ground...
05-25-2018, 05:28 PM
#14
Nordschleife Master
I don't think it's "99%". Maybe 2/3 or so are in the 'clueless' department.
Those who only see a cool car for a low price. And don't realize that a car that cost nearly 6 figures when new will have upkeep at that price point, not the '4 figure' purchase price.
There are quite a few who show up here with a puzzling problem and ask for help (me included). They did their research before purchase, had the car properly inspected, understood what was going to happen and entered the whole situation with their 'eyes wide open."
There are any number of issues that aren't covered by the DIY forum (or they haven't found that yet) or the writeups over on Pelican or somewhere. And basic search on here is not terribly user friendly.
Fortunately, there is a band of serious wingnuts dedicated to these cars, who are willing to spend a bit of time and share their knowledge.
When I got mine, I had owned a 944 for almost a decade, and a 928 for over three years. I understood the trap of a "cheap Porsche." I also had a decent set of tools, a place to work and a 'go-to' guy who is a pro mechanic and owns a shop. I've turned to him for help a couple times for each car. I will be using his shop and lift to change out the trans fluid on the Cayenne next month. It's worth the cost to access his lift. Doing it on my back on jackstands has zero appeal. Not for that job.
I see the Cayenne today in a similar spot that the 928 held about 8 or 10 years ago. A large number of them for sale for low(ish) prices. Some were bought by 'less than thoughtful' people who had no clue what they were getting themselves into. They weren't kept up properly (too much work or too much cost) and got parked. Or junked. The owners who understood what upkeep was going to take took good care of them. The value is starting to go up, for the nicer cars, in part due to attrition. There really aren't a whole lot of really nice ones left.
I don't see the rise in value ever happening with the Cayenne, but the two types of owner is becoming more and more apparent. The Cayenne being a more 'practical' SUV, as opposed to a 'sports car' opens it up to a much wider audience. It's not all that hard to tell the difference, especially in the questions they ask, and how they ask those questions.
05-26-2018, 09:53 AM
#15
Call me bullish, but I think we might see an increase in value for these rigs. When? Who knows. I think as they settle into the four figures to acquire we have reached the bottom of the depreciation curve. Why couldn't pigs enjoy the next fad to own "retro" SUVs in maybe 10-15 years?
It happened with the long wheel base Range Rovers, and even first and second gen Land Rover Disco's are seeing a small uptick in value. Similar situation: high MSRP, overbuilt, expensive to repair, foreign, performance minded, brand cache, etc. Both the Land Rover and Porsche current production versions of their SUVs are less about leaving the pavement and it shows in their styling. Want a fast, good looking SUV that has serious off road chops? You're not going to find it on the showroom floor. I know "good looking" is a subjective term, but I think the 955 / 957 is better looking that the 958.
Certain models will also appreciate in value more than others, i.e. the long wheel base versions of the Range Rover with the soft dash (94-95 only maybe). In Pig term's CTT's, GTSs, 957s might have a premium.
It happened with the long wheel base Range Rovers, and even first and second gen Land Rover Disco's are seeing a small uptick in value. Similar situation: high MSRP, overbuilt, expensive to repair, foreign, performance minded, brand cache, etc. Both the Land Rover and Porsche current production versions of their SUVs are less about leaving the pavement and it shows in their styling. Want a fast, good looking SUV that has serious off road chops? You're not going to find it on the showroom floor. I know "good looking" is a subjective term, but I think the 955 / 957 is better looking that the 958.
Certain models will also appreciate in value more than others, i.e. the long wheel base versions of the Range Rover with the soft dash (94-95 only maybe). In Pig term's CTT's, GTSs, 957s might have a premium.