Spirit_RE

Hello all here at Rennlist!

I'm currently interested in buying a 986. I've now driven an S and a 2.5 car, and both were pretty great. The 2.5 seemed to have a bit more character than the 3.2 and it was much cleaner too. Its a 1999 with 44k miles on it. 5 speed. Silver on red. It looks basically like a new car, the interior is essentially perfect. Its at a knowledgeable dealer who has confirmed that the car has the original engine and original IMS bearing. It being a 1999, that seems like less of an issue, but I would likely retrofit the LN bearing anyways.

I've read that the 2.5 cars also have some pretty severe issues with the cylinder liners. However, I've seen conflicting information on whether or not this extends to the 99 MY or not. The car had been sitting for at least a few days (brake pads were stuck momentarily on the discs) and it started up fine with no smoke and no odd noises. After getting it up to operating temperature, I gave it some revs and it ran pretty sweetly. Essentially, the engine seemed to run absolutely fine. But with 44k miles on an original MY 1999 engine, is this a potential time bomb?

I'd rather not buy an $11k car that needs a $10k engine immediately afterwards.

Macster

Early Boxster 2.5l engines could manifest a problem with the engine. It involved porosity, mainly at the cylinder "liner".

The odds this car has that and has not manifested the signs are very slim. You can take a sample of oil and have it analyzed and if any anti-freeze chemicals are found this at least suggests there is coolant in the oil. But if this were so I think you'd see other signs/symptoms.

I do not wish to engage in fear mongering but I have to say that -- and this is true for any car -- the car is a potential time bomb in that the engine could suffer some failure of a crticial component which could destroy the engine, render it unrepairable.

In spite of the posts here and other places most Boxster engines do not experience a critical component failure.

But this does not mean they can't or won't. If driven enough miles... The problem is no one knows for a particular car what the magic number is.

If buying a $11K car -- just repeating the number you used, not saying this is the market price -- and having to deal with replacing a $10K engine at any time afterwards is a real big worry for you perhaps you need to consider another car? One with a warranty to protect you against severe/expensive problems?

I'm not trying to be mean I'm just saying you need to be very sure what your tolerance is for risk, for the risk of possibly facing a huge repair bill or having car essentially rendered "scrap" should it suffer a major/severe engine problem.

I like to say that when one buys a car -- new or used -- he essentially throws a big wad of money into the wind. When he goes to sell the car, trade it in, the wind blows some of that money back to him. How much the wind blows back depends upon many things, but one thing one can be sure of if the engine goes boom he will get back far less than all other things being equal the engine doesn't go boom.

Ignoring the concerns about the engine early -- make that 2.5l Boxsters -- have a propensity -- based on what I read and hear from the techs -- to consume clutches. It is not a voracious appetite the possible shorter clutch life arises from the fact the engine doesn't have as much torque as the larger 2.7l engine and thus requires a bit more clutch slipping to get the car moving.

That the road test went well is good news, it doesn't mean issues won't pop up after you buy the car.

For instance, at 44K miles, while the number of miles is not huge, the AOS is getting on in years. Thus you could be facing the cost of an AOS R&R soon after you buy the car.

Be sure -- if you have not already done this -- have the car inspected. Among other things the car wants to be in the air so a close check can be made for any leak sign. Essentially every hose, hose fitting, connection, hydraulic line, hydraulic line connection, o-ring, seal, plug, or gasket wants to be checked for any leak sign.

The CV boots want to be checked to ensure they are intact.

The power steering rack wants to be checked for any leak sign and the rack dust boots checked for the presences of any accumulation of fluid.

The radiator ducts want to be checked for trash build up. If "severe" ths could mean a radiator or condenser leak is in the car's future.

At the same time check the body water drains. There are some under the front trunk lid under the panels on either side the battery. There is a drain under the clam shell arm too, on either side.

If any of these have any build up of trash if you buy the car you must immediately clean these. But before you buy the car you want to be sure the passenger seat floor is free of any moisture/dampness. Check the bottoms of the doors too.

If the coolant tank cap part number doesn't end in "02 or "04" the cap will probably leak if it is not leaking already. It leaks vapor which results in a drop in coolant level over time.

My experience is the oil filer tube cap can leak too, a vacuum leak. This appears at idle and just moving the cap around if the engine reacts, if you hear a leak, the cap needs to be replaced.

Schnell Gelb

PPI - ask here for a referral to a competent Porsche Indie in your area.
It is exceedingly unlikely that anyone not deeply involved in P-cars of this era would be competent to perform a PPI because the big problems are obscure and could cost more than you paid for the car to repair.
Check EBay "Sold" Completed Listings for actual sale prices. You will be astonished at the variation in prices - as Macster wisely says - it all depends if the car you are looking at is a time bomb - or not. Without a PPI you will find out but....

Spirit_RE

I'm in the San Francisco bay area (Oakland to be precise).

I guess I'm most concerned about the cylinder liner. But if a problem hasn't shown up in 17 years....I would think it's in the clear? Maybe? The IMS seems to be less of an issue on the pre-00 cars, though I would likely replace it along with a new clutch relatively soon.

Macster

Ah cylinder liner... it is coming back to me. Some early 2.5l blocks received liners because of casting porosity. What could happen is the replacement liner could come loose.

My recollection -- that apparently is not worth all that much -- is the the liner working loose would occur early on. Elapsed time played no real role it is miles covered, make that engine run time.

Below I've pasted a snippet that covers it better than I can remember and saves me some typing to boot:

there were a number of boxsters that had the the "pressed in" cylinder liners done in late'98' to roughly 2/99 production. There was a problem with the subcontractors machinery that provided the blocks at that time, so Porsche made a decision to use blocks that didn't meet their speck by pressing in cylinders liners. Apparently it didn't work all the time and their were lots of failures of cars with these engines; Porsche supposedly has replaced them without an issue to this point. The PCA tech section has some in depth articles on this issue. If you have a car built from roughly 10/98 to 2/99, this might be an issue. The PCA article said it that if there was a problem, it ususally occurred soon after the customer got the car--within 10k miles. Having said that, I read reports of owners that have had failures due to this years after they got the car with many more miles on it.

You might find the "in depth articles" mentioned above starting here:

https://www.pca.org/technical-question-search

If the car you are looking at is not in the subset that could have pressed in cylinder liners and if you address the IMSB with a suitable aftermarket bearing and are willing to put your trust in the aftermarket bearing the car then could be a good car.

Spirit_RE

I tried but was unable to decode the VIN. Anyone speak Porsche VIN that can tell me the date of manufacture?

WP0CA2985XU625172

Edit: The car was definitely built in '99 (in Finland) and the delivery date on the carfax says 1/28/99. So this is very likely in the range built with the poor blocks/liners.

Edit 2: The seller has the door tag pictured. It was assembled 12/98. Definitely a candidate for a bad block. :/

Tcar

The mfg date is on the doorjamb sticker with the VIN.

Bossy Pants

Take it to Alden at Flintworks in Campbell, CA for a PPI. He's Porsche trained, thorough and competitive pricing. He'll tell you if there's anything major going on.
flintworks campbell ca

Macster

Have you the engine serial number? Maybe the engine was replaced already?

Spirit_RE

The car has a pretty solid carfax history. There is no mention of an engine replacement. It's a 2 owner car.

Has anyone used Bauer Porsche in Oakland? I saw them recommended for PPI on another forum.

Tim Lawton

I have '99 base boxster. i'm the second owner. the car is in showroom condition and had 78K+ miles on it.
I read all the horror stories about IMS bearing failure and "d-chunk" cylinder liner failures. I had an **** retentive Porsche indie do a ppi on it. the asking price was incredibly low. the mechanic said buy it. I did knowing the IMS would require changing for my own piece of mind.


I replaced the clutch and IMS. Also had to replace the water pump so I did the belt too. presently, I need to replace the rear lower control arms. no biggy.


car came with 19" wheels, huge brembos, headers, aftermarket exhaust, custom stereo and just about every option available on the car. it is my daily driver and now has over 100k miles. I have made many long distance road trips in it and drive it with gusto, which my mechanic said is a good thing for any Porsche.


as far as the clutch suffering because it doesn't make as much torque as the 2.7, i'm throwing down the BS flag. you can get it rolling without any kind of excessive slip in 2nd gear. it'll roll from an idle in 1st gear.


frankly, after owning a variety of sporty cars, they all have issues that may be considered "ticking time bombs".


don't let the nay sayers scare you...but do change the IMS because you'll sleep better at night.


that is just my opinion and my experience....
good luck and enjoy....


tim

Macster

I've never driven a 2.5l Boxster so I have no experience regarding its clutch action and what it it takes to get the car moving at an acceptable rate but techs I trust tell me what I posted.

While in my 2002 with its 2.7l engine I too can get the car moving with just letting the clutch out with the engine at idle the take off is to slow to be a techniqe one can use in real life, in real traffic. My technique involves just a bit of gas to raise engine RPMs to around 1K then a back off on the gas concurrent with the smooth release of the clutch. The flywheel inertia gets the car moving off a stop at a rate that is acceptable to me and to other traffic. The release of the gas pedal has RPMs coming down as the clutch engages so the clutch while it experiences some slippage experiences the least amount.

Last January 2015 and more recently I have heard of a couple of 2.5l Boxsters with big miles, with as big of miles as my 2002 has (now at 300K miles) and both these cars like my Boxster with the original clutch still in service so there may be some BS to the short clutch life of the 2.5l cars, or it may be down to some driver factor, usage factor, that accounts for the reported shorter clutch life in the 2.5l cars.

If I were in the market for an early Boxster I wouldn't let this clutch life thing put me off an otherwise nice car. I'd certainly develop a technique to get the car moving with as little clutch slippage as possible, accepting the challenge to extend/maximize clutch life but not at the expense of enjoying the car.

Spirit_RE

I ended up buying the car a few weeks ago. I've driven nearly 1000 miles since then and it's been flawless. I haven't had any issues with the clutch other than after being stuck in heavy traffic for a while (more than 45 minutes of constant clutch engagement/disengagement every 10 seconds or so) the clutch can get a little 'grabby' and make the car buck a little bit. I also find reverse to be a pain if there is *any* sort of hill involve, as the reverse ratio seems waaay too tall. 85% of the time I can get the car moving just fine with minimal slip. Traffic and hilly starts are not friendly though. @45k miles, this clutch seems to still have plenty of bite. When shifting quickly from 2nd to 3rd at WOT the engagement actually is extremely positive. Forgot to update this thread as I've been more active on the 986 forum. But here she is

Woodman71

Awesome pics, I can't wait to take some similar ones of my own! Glad the car is everything you were hoping for.

pcarfan944

Beautiful Boxster - Silver on Red is classic.

Enjoy the car and don't let all the 986 fear mongering prevent you from doing so. 1999 was one of the best years for the Boxster. The cylinder liner issue seemed to occur predominately in 97 (maybe a few 98?) model years and failures happened early on.

The 2.5 also had the more robust dual-row IMS bearing with a failure rate of approximately 1% versus 7-10% for the single row bearing starting around mid-2000.

Some people do complain that the 2.5 is a little touchy starting out of first gear versus the 2.7. Some truth there but once you become acclimated to driving the 2.5 it's a non-issue. I can pull away from rest in my '99 buttery smooth without many revs at all (1000-1200).

I also agree the 2.5 has the most character. I drove a 2.5, 2.7 and a 3.2 'S'. Frankly I was disappointed with the 3.2, didn't feel like an extra 50hp, and the engine lacked the beautiful metallic ziiiing of the 2.5. The engine note on the 2.7 also seemed pretty muted and seemed only mildly faster, well, in all honesty it would walk away from the 2.5 above 60 mph, but for me the engine and exhaust note was a large part of the Boxster's appeal, which is what made me choose the wonderfully operatic and soulful little 2.5 (which is still plenty fast).

Enjoy the new ride and ****** up a hardtop when you get the chance!