alphanumeric

Hi everyone, I'm looking at trading a vehicle of mine (2001 Mercedes E320 with 60k miles) that I don't really drive much at all for a 1999 Boxster (manual) with 120K miles. The problem is... The reason the guy is interested in the trade is that the Boxster doesn't start.

The car seems well maintained with all service records, and I've got time and a garage where I can work through the main potential culprits (CPS, etc), but I'm not sure what else I can check out if it's not running. Also, I'm not sure I want to *get* it running until it's at home in my garage... though I think I might try to bump/push start it(any issues with that?). So, what would you guys look for? The story is that it was running well and then one day it just wouldn't start. "Engine spins but won't start." It was towed to a shop who determined it wasn't the starter. Rather than look into it anymore at the time, the guy towed it home and has decided to trade it.

So, what do you guys think?? I've had a smattering of European/German cars (first car was an old 924 that my dad and I fixed up, also had a 944, Audi, Benz, Saab, etc), so I'm not afraid of getting dirty and am aware of the general level maintenance needs that will come with the car. Goal would be to turn it into an fun car for occasional use as DD.

Macster

With not being able to start and run the engine and give the car a thorough road test it is a roller and worth quite a bit less.

The seller might not like to hear that but tough. He wants to avoid a repair bill he is going to pay another way.

Well unless some buyer comes along and rolls the dice on the car.

My WAG is the fuel pump quit. Should be rather easy to diagnose. The fuel pump should come on with the key being turned on. Go look at another *running* 1999 Boxster and confirm the pump runs with the key being turned on.

To eliminate the middle man, so to speak, the techs connect 12V power directly to the pump electrical leads when diagnosing a suspected fuel pump problem.

If it is the fuel pump, unless it is due to a bad fuse or relay -- possible but unlikely -- to get the car running will require a new fuel pump.

Until the engine runs in my opinion the car's just a roller and worth probably no more than $2K to maybe $3K.

alphanumeric

Thanks for the reminder about the fuel pump, I'll definitely be listening for that when I click on the ignition before cranking. I know it's a risk, but if the maintenance records are as thorough and the condition as cherry as the seller says, it might be quite a well cared for car that he's just tired of dumping $ into. My car I quite like but never drive, and it's really a dime a dozen. Anyway I have no problem walking away if something doesn't feel right. At 3K it's not too far off what I value the Benz at, with the potential to double that value with a bit of luck, having a car I've wanted for 20 years. We'll see. I'll either become very active around here in about two weeks (or in about 2 years). :-)

Macster

Well, my opinion is something doesn't feel right. Someone is trying to sell a car that doesn't run.

Ignoring the rather rare car buyer who are willing to consider such a car this is contrary to the normal process of selling a car.

One usually strives to have the car in as good a shape as possible, well, at least have the engine running. The seller might not fit new tires, or do the brakes, but he usually has the car in a drivable condition so the buyer can at least experience the car in its normal state -- engine running on the road. One can without much effort estimate what new tires will cost or what a brake job will involve and make an intelligent offer for the car.

For a seller to not have the car running suggests the problem is more severe than possibly a bad fuel pump. There have been enough cases of good looking well maintained cars suffering serious internal engine problems, or serious drivetrain problems, that one can't or shouldn't anyhow rely upon looks or service records alone.

Qmulus

My experience from engineering that if you cannot or do not test something, you must assume that is does not work. The only safe thing for you is to assume the worst which is that the engine is blown. Sure, it could simply be the fuel pump, crank position sensor or other "simple" issues, but it could also be much more serious. These engines do fail. Do not assume it is the easy fix.

If the battery and starter are OK, it will not "bump" start. If you are OK on trading your E class for what probably an $8k if running, which may cost $100 to $5k to fix (worst case), then go for it.

I had a similar experience when I got my Boxster S in non-running condition, and it worked out. I could have fixed it before getting it, but chances are the seller wouldn't have sold, or would have asked market price, which I wasn't interested in paying. I bought it as is, knowing that worst case I could have parted it out and got my money out of it.

Dan87951

Definitely walk about way from this deal. My guess is the seller is holding something back and it sounds like a good dealer for him. Boxster's are a dime a dozen so be patient another one will come up.

alphanumeric

Thanks for the advice/realism guys. I'm still going to check it out, see how I feel about while including the possibility of dumping $5k and a ton of time into it if it's sunk. My E320 is in great shape inside, but not so great outside (rust belt, and all), and they tend to sell for pretty cheap around here, so it might be a pretty fair deal, with the chance of it coming out a nice deal. I'll assume the worst, but aside from metal in the oil/oil filter, are there any other checks I could do that would indicate a total failure?

flyingpenguin

CPS, Fuel pump or maybe even fuel pressure regulator.. The first two are fairly quick to diagnose so if the seller is willing to part with the car for a few hours (most do if you ask it to be PPI-ed), then you can at least exclude the low hanging fruit.

Macster

Well, absent running the engine and having a test ride and then a test drive, you could run a compression check.

If done right this can tell you the engine makes good compression (or not) but it won't tell you if the engine runs, even if it had a good fuel pump, if that is what the no start/no run cause is.

You do not get to listen to the engine. You can't know if the engine smokes while running. You do not know if the engine pulls good up to red line and so on. You do not know if the DME sets about a zillion error codes and turns on the CEL after just a few minutes of running.

Also, you have no way of checking out the car's running gear: brakes, steering, drivetrain, etc.; its cooling system, A/C system, etc.

The best way to check out one of these cars is a road test.

If you can't do that all other tests are while better than nothing not much better than nothing.

Dan87951

They often say the most risky deals are the most rewarding.

If it was something as simple as a fuel pump it leaves one to wonder why wouldn't the owner fix it himself and double the value of the car? When the IMS bearing fails are these engines still able to turn over by the starter or are they seized? Just curious...

Macster

In some cases the IMSB failure has the engine locked up. But a number of times the IMSB failure has not advanced to that point and the engine still cranks, even runs. The few times I have heard an engine that was being diagnosed with a pending IMSB failure run the engine sounds terrible but I doubt one could hear this over the starter.

alphanumeric

Went and looked at it today, but ultimately walked away. I didn't hear the fuel pump turn on when I turned the ignition, in fact it seemed that the engine wasn't turning over at all, just a buzzing sound when cranking. It was different from the clicking sound I've heard when trying to start a car with a 'dead' battery. Tried a couple things--starter fluid in the intake manifold, looked at fuses, etc, all to no avail. If anyone has a simple explanation, I'd be happy to listen... Anyways, I may think about it a bit more over the next week, but I think I'm moving on. Overall the car looked like it'd been owned by a kid, with half-assed smoked amber in the headlights and enclosed Bose speakers velcro'd in behind the seats, etc. Not something that looked as though it'd been pampered... I should say it looked like the sale was partially due to a divorce, though I didn't probe that aspect. I think he didn't want to deal with the chance that it could be something catastrophic, which doesn't feel so unlikely now...

So, in all, thanks for the advice, guys! See you as soon as a properly sorted Boxster comes my way!

Macster

Bad fuel pump -- perhaps -- coupled with a low battery could account for the behavior.

Maybe.

It is my opinion no sane seller would try to sell a car in this condition unless he was willing to part with it for a song or counting on the buyer who is wiling to roll the dice on this car.

I won't try to guess the seller's motivation for offering a car in this condition. It doesn't matter, really.

You did the right thing. There are too many other examples that run and I'm sure will be found to be in good condition and you will have your pick of any number of them.

I will repeat what I believe is the first rule of used car buying: There is always another car.

Might mention too that you learned something from this experience so your check out of the next candidate car will be better because of it.

alphanumeric

No joke, IME walking away from a car is some of the best research you can get. Nice to see the community here is active and supportive as well--these seem like tricky buggers to work on, but that's a bit less intimidating now.

alphanumeric

Well, as a 'low ball offer' I suggested that to make it worth my hassle I'd need $2k plus the Boxster for the Benz... It seems like he may go for it after being frustrated with dealing with craigslist flakes and the like. I figure at this price, I can try a few cheaper fixes and if it doesn't work out, slowly part it out over the winter and be on the lookout in the spring. :-) I figure I would probably learn quite a bit about the car in the process, too.

Updates to follow later this week...