Which ATF Fluid?
12-23-2012, 10:05 PM
#1
Drifting
Thread Starter
Which ATF Fluid?
Since an ATF "change" only changes about 3.5L of the ~9L in the transmission, is it OK to use alternate fluids like Pentosin ATF1 for the change? I've heard there may be issues when mixing different ATFs, but also heard lots of people using Pentosin or Esso ATF.
12-23-2012, 11:06 PM
#2
Race Director
If you switch fluids only about 40% of the oil fluid gets drained. Using the same or a comparable fluid means the characteristics of the combined fluid remains the same.
If you mix fluids you do not know what you or the Tip will end up with.
Thus you are on our own.
'course you'll get input from some who've ventured off the reservation and have not encountered any problems. But you gamble a very expensive Tip for the sake of saving a few dollars. Even if the unapproved fluid was free, what you put up as a bet is way more expensive than what you can win.
12-23-2012, 11:53 PM
#3
Drifting
Thread Starter
Wayne @ Pelican Parts wrote "The Porsche part number for the transmission fluid is 999-917-545-00, but is almost $35 a liter. The Boxster also can use off-the-shelf Esso LT 71141, or Pentosin ATF-1, both available along with gasket/filter kits from PelicanParts.com. I would avoid using any other type of fluid in your transmission. Also, use the same fluid for the entire replacement process - mixing and matching different types of transmission fluid can cause your transmission to fail."
What I don't get is why Wayne says to use ATF-1 or LT 71141 for the entire replacement process, but then cautions against mixing different ATFs; without dropping the transmission and draining every drop, you're never going to get all the old stuff out; he suggests on the forums that changing fluid 3x will get it all out, but mathematically, 3 changes is still 80% new/20% original. Pelican Parts only sells these alternate fluids, not the Porsche part# stuff, and seems pretty clear most people use them without issue, but I was hoping to confirm because last thing I need is to gel ATF or whatever the potential adverse mixing reactions are. Honestly, I don't even know how I'd go about finding out what fluid Porsche originally put in. I ordered the filter kit & pump from Pelican and am tentatively planning on using Pentosin ATF-1, which is available at my local O'Reillys.
What I don't get is why Wayne says to use ATF-1 or LT 71141 for the entire replacement process, but then cautions against mixing different ATFs; without dropping the transmission and draining every drop, you're never going to get all the old stuff out; he suggests on the forums that changing fluid 3x will get it all out, but mathematically, 3 changes is still 80% new/20% original. Pelican Parts only sells these alternate fluids, not the Porsche part# stuff, and seems pretty clear most people use them without issue, but I was hoping to confirm because last thing I need is to gel ATF or whatever the potential adverse mixing reactions are. Honestly, I don't even know how I'd go about finding out what fluid Porsche originally put in. I ordered the filter kit & pump from Pelican and am tentatively planning on using Pentosin ATF-1, which is available at my local O'Reillys.
12-24-2012, 02:09 AM
#4
I once used mobil one atf in a DD. Immediately after the change, the top gear would slip and not hold on freeway. It was supposed to be compatible.
I have since sticked to original fluid for atf. Not worth taking chances since you are only changing 4-5 qts. shop online and on ebay/amazon for best price.
I'm not sure about the tip but you can typically drain out more fluid by disconnecting the transmission line and sometimes the torque converter has a drain plug too. Personally, I would just change it earlier before the fluid is too old.
I have since sticked to original fluid for atf. Not worth taking chances since you are only changing 4-5 qts. shop online and on ebay/amazon for best price.
I'm not sure about the tip but you can typically drain out more fluid by disconnecting the transmission line and sometimes the torque converter has a drain plug too. Personally, I would just change it earlier before the fluid is too old.
12-24-2012, 09:47 AM
#5
Drifting
Thread Starter
Mobil1 ATF is a Mercon/Dexron ATF, and completely the wrong stuff. Pentosin ATF-1 and Esso LT 71141 are reportedly both the exact same ATF manufactured by Pentosin (which is owned by Esso) and sold under two different names. Comparing online data, though, the numbers are very similar but not exact. Could be variation during testing, or could be different formulations. I've seen at least one person state Porsche uses Esso LT 71141 for OEM tip fills, but (no offense), but random people on the internet are often wrong. LT 71141 itself is already a super-exclusive name brand ATF that people try to substitute with something cheaper.
The 986 parts manual calls out 000-043-205-09 (transmission oil ATF 20 LTR. container) and 999-917-545-00 (transmission oil HYPOID 1 LTR container) for tiptronic transmissions. I've found multiple vendors stating the part# for 000-043-205-09 has changed to 000-043-207-00, which is the Porsche part# generally listed for both Pentosin ATF-1 and Pentosin LT 71141.
Edit: Found Porsche's official TSB over at RennTech stating that these both are, indeed, approved fluids and are approved to be mixed with the factory fill!
The 986 parts manual calls out 000-043-205-09 (transmission oil ATF 20 LTR. container) and 999-917-545-00 (transmission oil HYPOID 1 LTR container) for tiptronic transmissions. I've found multiple vendors stating the part# for 000-043-205-09 has changed to 000-043-207-00, which is the Porsche part# generally listed for both Pentosin ATF-1 and Pentosin LT 71141.
Edit: Found Porsche's official TSB over at RennTech stating that these both are, indeed, approved fluids and are approved to be mixed with the factory fill!
Last edited by sjfehr; 12-24-2012 at 10:08 AM.
12-24-2012, 01:54 PM
#6
Esso LT 71141 *is* the OEM fill
Just go to ZF' site to get the info.
Its ZF 5HP19
Its ZF 5HP19
Wayne @ Pelican Parts wrote "The Porsche part number for the transmission fluid is 999-917-545-00, but is almost $35 a liter. The Boxster also can use off-the-shelf Esso LT 71141, or Pentosin ATF-1, both available along with gasket/filter kits from PelicanParts.com. I would avoid using any other type of fluid in your transmission. Also, use the same fluid for the entire replacement process - mixing and matching different types of transmission fluid can cause your transmission to fail."
What I don't get is why Wayne says to use ATF-1 or LT 71141 for the entire replacement process, but then cautions against mixing different ATFs; without dropping the transmission and draining every drop, you're never going to get all the old stuff out; he suggests on the forums that changing fluid 3x will get it all out, but mathematically, 3 changes is still 80% new/20% original. Pelican Parts only sells these alternate fluids, not the Porsche part# stuff, and seems pretty clear most people use them without issue, but I was hoping to confirm because last thing I need is to gel ATF or whatever the potential adverse mixing reactions are. Honestly, I don't even know how I'd go about finding out what fluid Porsche originally put in. I ordered the filter kit & pump from Pelican and am tentatively planning on using Pentosin ATF-1, which is available at my local O'Reillys.
What I don't get is why Wayne says to use ATF-1 or LT 71141 for the entire replacement process, but then cautions against mixing different ATFs; without dropping the transmission and draining every drop, you're never going to get all the old stuff out; he suggests on the forums that changing fluid 3x will get it all out, but mathematically, 3 changes is still 80% new/20% original. Pelican Parts only sells these alternate fluids, not the Porsche part# stuff, and seems pretty clear most people use them without issue, but I was hoping to confirm because last thing I need is to gel ATF or whatever the potential adverse mixing reactions are. Honestly, I don't even know how I'd go about finding out what fluid Porsche originally put in. I ordered the filter kit & pump from Pelican and am tentatively planning on using Pentosin ATF-1, which is available at my local O'Reillys.
12-24-2012, 02:17 PM
#7
Drifting
Thread Starter
Hadn't thought of that, lol. ZF's website says to use Porsche Oil No. 999.917.547.00 for ZF 5HP19FL transmission.
https://serviceline.zf.com/interoele...011_en0700.pdf
https://serviceline.zf.com/interoele...011_en0700.pdf
Originally Posted by ZF
4HP20,
5HP19, 5HP19FL (1), 5HP19FLA (2),
5HP19HL (1), 5HP19HLA (2),
5HP24, 5HP24A (2)
According to spare part number of vehicle manufacturer:
ZF Lifeguardfluid5 (ZF No. S671 090 170)
=> Audi / VW Oil No. G 052162 A1 / A2 / A6
=> BMW Oil No. 8322 9407807
=> Citroen Oil No. Z 000169756
=> Jaguar Oil No. JLM 20238
=> Mercedes Benz Oil No. A 0019892203
=> Peugeot Oil No. Z 000169756
=> Porsche Oil No. 999.917.547.00
5HP19, 5HP19FL (1), 5HP19FLA (2),
5HP19HL (1), 5HP19HLA (2),
5HP24, 5HP24A (2)
According to spare part number of vehicle manufacturer:
ZF Lifeguardfluid5 (ZF No. S671 090 170)
=> Audi / VW Oil No. G 052162 A1 / A2 / A6
=> BMW Oil No. 8322 9407807
=> Citroen Oil No. Z 000169756
=> Jaguar Oil No. JLM 20238
=> Mercedes Benz Oil No. A 0019892203
=> Peugeot Oil No. Z 000169756
=> Porsche Oil No. 999.917.547.00
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12-24-2012, 02:40 PM
#8
If you love your Boxster you should maintain your transmission like I do on my Ford F250.
Take it to a shop that has the "BG" (or similar) transmission flush machine. This will flush the tranny of sediments and change out ALL of the fluid. A MUCH better way to service an automatic transmission.
The first transmission in my pickup lasted just 44,000 mi. Once I got the new transmission I started servicing it using the flush equipment. This replacement tranny now has 160,000 mi. on it and still going strong.
Take it to a shop that has the "BG" (or similar) transmission flush machine. This will flush the tranny of sediments and change out ALL of the fluid. A MUCH better way to service an automatic transmission.
The first transmission in my pickup lasted just 44,000 mi. Once I got the new transmission I started servicing it using the flush equipment. This replacement tranny now has 160,000 mi. on it and still going strong.
12-24-2012, 05:14 PM
#9
Maybe, but there's been lot sof experience with ZFs that indicates
...that its better to do the service per ZF's specs, than to flush. Many who flush wind up with problems. Some speculate this occurs because people wait too long to start, and the very detergent complete flush removes varnishes and particulates that then cause trouble. The issue is all over the Audi & BMW boards, where the numbers are larger (albeit also the maint may be more lax).
So i would strongly suggest AGAINST this.
Audi claims its lifetime. Ditto BMW. (Raspberries to them). ZF says to perform a service every 50k - which means drain the ~40%, clean, replace filter. I think that's the best choice. If you want it all changed, do this on a tighter schedule, say, every 20k so that it all gets changed, but gradually.
Grant
So i would strongly suggest AGAINST this.
Audi claims its lifetime. Ditto BMW. (Raspberries to them). ZF says to perform a service every 50k - which means drain the ~40%, clean, replace filter. I think that's the best choice. If you want it all changed, do this on a tighter schedule, say, every 20k so that it all gets changed, but gradually.
Grant
If you love your Boxster you should maintain your transmission like I do on my Ford F250.
Take it to a shop that has the "BG" (or similar) transmission flush machine. This will flush the tranny of sediments and change out ALL of the fluid. A MUCH better way to service an automatic transmission.
The first transmission in my pickup lasted just 44,000 mi. Once I got the new transmission I started servicing it using the flush equipment. This replacement tranny now has 160,000 mi. on it and still going strong.
Take it to a shop that has the "BG" (or similar) transmission flush machine. This will flush the tranny of sediments and change out ALL of the fluid. A MUCH better way to service an automatic transmission.
The first transmission in my pickup lasted just 44,000 mi. Once I got the new transmission I started servicing it using the flush equipment. This replacement tranny now has 160,000 mi. on it and still going strong.
12-25-2012, 03:08 AM
#10
Stop.
Mobil 1 and Castrol Transmax both cover LT 71141 for just a few bucks.
Still, I'd strongly consider Valvoline Maxlife as the best choice otc. Otherwise, AMSoil is hands-down the best formulated and tested fluid you can buy.
ATFs are FAR more alike than different. I've used ATF+4 in many different trans which use friction-modified fluids. On the other end, there are non-friction-modified fluids like Dexron III and VI. Clutchpacks grab a bit more firmly with Dexron than ATF+4, that's about it.
Universal ATFs have "selective" add packs which react "properly" to the friction material they encounter. Frankly, all these friction parameters change throughout the service life of the fluid, rooster tailing through similar visc and friction ranges. Therefore, they all have the same properties at different times...nbd.
I prefer a High Miles fluid in anything > 5 years old, that's just me. Call AMSoil, they will take care of you, or just grab a known-good otc product. don't waste money on Porsche-Approved products, waste brain cells instead when you select a fluid. The LT spec is almost 20 years old, plenty of new lube tech has come down the pike since then.
Mobil 1 and Castrol Transmax both cover LT 71141 for just a few bucks.
Still, I'd strongly consider Valvoline Maxlife as the best choice otc. Otherwise, AMSoil is hands-down the best formulated and tested fluid you can buy.
ATFs are FAR more alike than different. I've used ATF+4 in many different trans which use friction-modified fluids. On the other end, there are non-friction-modified fluids like Dexron III and VI. Clutchpacks grab a bit more firmly with Dexron than ATF+4, that's about it.
Universal ATFs have "selective" add packs which react "properly" to the friction material they encounter. Frankly, all these friction parameters change throughout the service life of the fluid, rooster tailing through similar visc and friction ranges. Therefore, they all have the same properties at different times...nbd.
I prefer a High Miles fluid in anything > 5 years old, that's just me. Call AMSoil, they will take care of you, or just grab a known-good otc product. don't waste money on Porsche-Approved products, waste brain cells instead when you select a fluid. The LT spec is almost 20 years old, plenty of new lube tech has come down the pike since then.
12-25-2012, 03:13 AM
#12
Originally Posted by sjfehr
Wayne @ Pelican Parts wrote "The Porsche part number for the transmission fluid is 999-917-545-00, but is almost $35 a liter. The Boxster also can use off-the-shelf Esso LT 71141, or Pentosin ATF-1, both available along with gasket/filter kits from PelicanParts.com. I would avoid using any other type of fluid in your transmission. Also, use the same fluid for the entire replacement process - mixing and matching different types of transmission fluid can cause your transmission to fail."
What I don't get is why Wayne says to use ATF-1 or LT 71141 for the entire replacement process, but then cautions against mixing different ATFs; without dropping the transmission and draining every drop, you're never going to get all the old stuff out; he suggests on the forums that changing fluid 3x will get it all out, but mathematically, 3 changes is still 80% new/20% original. Pelican Parts only sells these alternate fluids, not the Porsche part# stuff, and seems pretty clear most people use them without issue, but I was hoping to confirm because last thing I need is to gel ATF or whatever the potential adverse mixing reactions are. Honestly, I don't even know how I'd go about finding out what fluid Porsche originally put in. I ordered the filter kit & pump from Pelican and am tentatively planning on using Pentosin ATF-1, which is available at my local O'Reillys.
That is a huge load of rubbish. No ATF on Earth should cost over $10/q. The moment they warn against mixing, hell that tells me they don't know a freaking thing about the products, that is dead wrong. I'd be happy to take the Kool-Aid test of ANY of the ATFs I mention, hell even a cocktail of them, if someone will pay for the flushing labour. That is a dare that noone will touch...Pelican? Get $200 together for me on the Forum and I'll do it.
Wayne @ Pelican Parts wrote "The Porsche part number for the transmission fluid is 999-917-545-00, but is almost $35 a liter. The Boxster also can use off-the-shelf Esso LT 71141, or Pentosin ATF-1, both available along with gasket/filter kits from PelicanParts.com. I would avoid using any other type of fluid in your transmission. Also, use the same fluid for the entire replacement process - mixing and matching different types of transmission fluid can cause your transmission to fail."
What I don't get is why Wayne says to use ATF-1 or LT 71141 for the entire replacement process, but then cautions against mixing different ATFs; without dropping the transmission and draining every drop, you're never going to get all the old stuff out; he suggests on the forums that changing fluid 3x will get it all out, but mathematically, 3 changes is still 80% new/20% original. Pelican Parts only sells these alternate fluids, not the Porsche part# stuff, and seems pretty clear most people use them without issue, but I was hoping to confirm because last thing I need is to gel ATF or whatever the potential adverse mixing reactions are. Honestly, I don't even know how I'd go about finding out what fluid Porsche originally put in. I ordered the filter kit & pump from Pelican and am tentatively planning on using Pentosin ATF-1, which is available at my local O'Reillys.
That is a huge load of rubbish. No ATF on Earth should cost over $10/q. The moment they warn against mixing, hell that tells me they don't know a freaking thing about the products, that is dead wrong. I'd be happy to take the Kool-Aid test of ANY of the ATFs I mention, hell even a cocktail of them, if someone will pay for the flushing labour. That is a dare that noone will touch...Pelican? Get $200 together for me on the Forum and I'll do it.
12-25-2012, 11:17 AM
#13
I suspect Wayne and others are simply following ZF's guideance:
from the ZF Oil Reference Guide:
FOR BETTER FRICTION – ZF TRANSMISSION FLUID
Transmission fluids are not all alike and, more importantly, are not interchangeable with each other. Each transmission needs a specific type of transmission fluid to operate properly. The use of incorrect transmission fluid may cause extensive damage to internal parts of the transmission and may bring the transmission right back to your shop.
The use of correct transmission fluid will increase the life of the transmission and can also reduce some friction between you and your customer.
That’s why ZF Industries, Inc. offers the recommended lubricants for ZF passenger car transmissions in addition to the complete line of kits and spare parts.
<snip>
For a distributor near you, please call (800) 660-2269 or visit us at www.zf-group.com
Maybe true, maybe not. Given the large number of failures of the 5HP19 and 5HP24 in Audis, lots of people take few chances. Lubri-moly and Pentosin make fluids that are specified to be compatible, but since the Audi Fluid is < $10/L, why bother?
Grant
FOR BETTER FRICTION – ZF TRANSMISSION FLUID
Transmission fluids are not all alike and, more importantly, are not interchangeable with each other. Each transmission needs a specific type of transmission fluid to operate properly. The use of incorrect transmission fluid may cause extensive damage to internal parts of the transmission and may bring the transmission right back to your shop.
The use of correct transmission fluid will increase the life of the transmission and can also reduce some friction between you and your customer.
That’s why ZF Industries, Inc. offers the recommended lubricants for ZF passenger car transmissions in addition to the complete line of kits and spare parts.
<snip>
For a distributor near you, please call (800) 660-2269 or visit us at www.zf-group.com
Maybe true, maybe not. Given the large number of failures of the 5HP19 and 5HP24 in Audis, lots of people take few chances. Lubri-moly and Pentosin make fluids that are specified to be compatible, but since the Audi Fluid is < $10/L, why bother?
Grant
Originally Posted by sjfehr
Wayne @ Pelican Parts wrote "The Porsche part number for the transmission fluid is 999-917-545-00, but is almost $35 a liter. The Boxster also can use off-the-shelf Esso LT 71141, or Pentosin ATF-1, both available along with gasket/filter kits from PelicanParts.com. I would avoid using any other type of fluid in your transmission. Also, use the same fluid for the entire replacement process - mixing and matching different types of transmission fluid can cause your transmission to fail."
What I don't get is why Wayne says to use ATF-1 or LT 71141 for the entire replacement process, but then cautions against mixing different ATFs; without dropping the transmission and draining every drop, you're never going to get all the old stuff out; he suggests on the forums that changing fluid 3x will get it all out, but mathematically, 3 changes is still 80% new/20% original. Pelican Parts only sells these alternate fluids, not the Porsche part# stuff, and seems pretty clear most people use them without issue, but I was hoping to confirm because last thing I need is to gel ATF or whatever the potential adverse mixing reactions are. Honestly, I don't even know how I'd go about finding out what fluid Porsche originally put in. I ordered the filter kit & pump from Pelican and am tentatively planning on using Pentosin ATF-1, which is available at my local O'Reillys.
That is a huge load of rubbish. No ATF on Earth should cost over $10/q. The moment they warn against mixing, hell that tells me they don't know a freaking thing about the products, that is dead wrong. I'd be happy to take the Kool-Aid test of ANY of the ATFs I mention, hell even a cocktail of them, if someone will pay for the flushing labour. That is a dare that noone will touch...Pelican? Get $200 together for me on the Forum and I'll do it.
Wayne @ Pelican Parts wrote "The Porsche part number for the transmission fluid is 999-917-545-00, but is almost $35 a liter. The Boxster also can use off-the-shelf Esso LT 71141, or Pentosin ATF-1, both available along with gasket/filter kits from PelicanParts.com. I would avoid using any other type of fluid in your transmission. Also, use the same fluid for the entire replacement process - mixing and matching different types of transmission fluid can cause your transmission to fail."
What I don't get is why Wayne says to use ATF-1 or LT 71141 for the entire replacement process, but then cautions against mixing different ATFs; without dropping the transmission and draining every drop, you're never going to get all the old stuff out; he suggests on the forums that changing fluid 3x will get it all out, but mathematically, 3 changes is still 80% new/20% original. Pelican Parts only sells these alternate fluids, not the Porsche part# stuff, and seems pretty clear most people use them without issue, but I was hoping to confirm because last thing I need is to gel ATF or whatever the potential adverse mixing reactions are. Honestly, I don't even know how I'd go about finding out what fluid Porsche originally put in. I ordered the filter kit & pump from Pelican and am tentatively planning on using Pentosin ATF-1, which is available at my local O'Reillys.
That is a huge load of rubbish. No ATF on Earth should cost over $10/q. The moment they warn against mixing, hell that tells me they don't know a freaking thing about the products, that is dead wrong. I'd be happy to take the Kool-Aid test of ANY of the ATFs I mention, hell even a cocktail of them, if someone will pay for the flushing labour. That is a dare that noone will touch...Pelican? Get $200 together for me on the Forum and I'll do it.
12-25-2012, 02:45 PM
#14
Do you need my PayPal account?
I wish someone who knows better would list the DIFFERENCES between the various fluids, like I did.
Of course if someone used some old Type F or cheap Dex III it would not be too good. Take those two out of the pack, and every other fluid is suitable for ZF use. +4 would give softer shifts, Dex VI would give firmer shifts. Does anyone think Pentosin will retain the exact same properties after 100K? No, shifts will get get harder as friction modifiers wear out, deposits accrue and viscosity drops. The trans works fine over this range of properties the OE fluid presents over it's service life, that's why other than OE fluid work fine, they are all within the same range as OE.
I'll say it again, Mobil 1 and Castrol Transmax claim LT 71141. Valvoline even recommends Mercon V for ZF use. Maybe someone here knows more than they do. End of story.
I wish someone who knows better would list the DIFFERENCES between the various fluids, like I did.
Of course if someone used some old Type F or cheap Dex III it would not be too good. Take those two out of the pack, and every other fluid is suitable for ZF use. +4 would give softer shifts, Dex VI would give firmer shifts. Does anyone think Pentosin will retain the exact same properties after 100K? No, shifts will get get harder as friction modifiers wear out, deposits accrue and viscosity drops. The trans works fine over this range of properties the OE fluid presents over it's service life, that's why other than OE fluid work fine, they are all within the same range as OE.
I'll say it again, Mobil 1 and Castrol Transmax claim LT 71141. Valvoline even recommends Mercon V for ZF use. Maybe someone here knows more than they do. End of story.
12-25-2012, 02:49 PM
#15
btw- that ZF ATF guide is written for service advisors:
The use of correct transmission fluid will increase the life of the transmission and can also reduce some friction between you and your customer.
"and may bring the transmission right back to your shop."
Hardly a technical analysis.
The use of correct transmission fluid will increase the life of the transmission and can also reduce some friction between you and your customer.
"and may bring the transmission right back to your shop."
Hardly a technical analysis.