Sumflow

The consensus seems to be that when the inner bearing seal goes, the oil washes the grease out of the m96 intermediate bearing. This leads to metal-to-metal contact, causing friction, which produces excess heat when driven with high loads at low rpm. This leads to the failure of the bearing and subsequently to a blown engine.

A variety of oils and greases are used, because they retain their lubricity even in cases of almost complete oil loss. Some are used in critical applications such as aircraft engines. Dry lubricants, which despite being in the solid phase, are able to reduce friction between two surfaces sliding against each other without the need for a liquid media. Such lubricants are also able to offer lubrication at temperatures higher than liquid and oil-based lubricants are able to operate.

http://www.motreq.com/Document/porschetest.pdf

Porsche tested an anti-friction resin, which accounted for a 10% increase in mileage on their test car. Is there any way, perhaps with a syringe that a treatment like this, if it works, can be injected past the seal and into the intermediate bearing housing on a m96?

This slippery metal treatment was originally developed to treat high performance piston aircraft engines. It penetrates the metal surfaces where heat and friction occurs, filling minor voids, and leaving behind a super-slippery film on both surfaces.

The low-friction characteristics of most dry lubricants are attributed to a layered structure on the molecular level with weak bonding between layers. Such layers are able to slide relative to each other with minimal applied force, thus giving them their low friction properties.

Usually the application is a one time only treatment. But not knowing if the seal is broken or not, if it cannot be injected inside, the alternative, cheap insurance would be to keep the treatment in the oil at all times, if possible, so that when the seal does go, the bearing is protected immediately.

If the seal does not break. It will not matter. But when it does, if the oil in the car contains the anti-friction resin, at that time. Then it would flood and coat the bearing surface with a micro-thin dry film lubricant, reducing the harmful effects of friction leading to engine failure, and adding protection against corrosion during periods of non-use.

Has anyone experimented with something like this?

http://www.lnengineering.com/ims.html
http://www.microlonproducts.com/howitworks.php

mikefocke

Why not just abandon the notion that the inner seal is lifetime or desirable. Accept the fact that oil will get to the bearing and even facilitate it always getting there by not having an "inner" seal. Then use a better bearing..one many times better. Change the oil often. Now you'd have a bearing never starved for lubrication, one with a longer lifetime projected.

Then support the whole thing with a better support structure, outer seal, etc.

Recall the "teflon" additives of past years? Must not have worked out. And the claims for this product are it does everything for you: cleans the engine, smooths the idle, increases mileage, extends life, etc. I'm always skeptical of 'I do everything for you' claims. If this were so good, the car manufacturers who are desperate to eke out a tenth of a MPG would be all over it.

Sumflow

Thanks for your quick response

Quote:

Why not just abandon the notion that the inner seal is lifetime or desirable. Accept the fact that oil will get to the bearing and even facilitate it always getting there by not having an "inner" seal.

No doubt about this. But to do this you have to split the case open. How can you keep from splitting the engine open.

Quote:

Then use a better bearing one many times better.

You are preaching to the choir, no one here will doubt that a ceramic bearing with no inner seal is the cure.

Quote:

Recall the "Teflon" additives of past years?

Treating the metal with a harder slicker surface has nothing at all to do with adding Teflon to your oil. Microlon says they do not use Teflon in there hardener.

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Must not have worked out.

Teflon was a hoax for snake oil.

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And the claims for this product are it does everything for you: cleans the engine, smooths the idle, increases mileage, extends life, etc.

The product was tested by Porsche. The purpose was to reduce friction. It only cleans it enough to coat the metal. It is not a cleaner. It is used on guns and aircraft to treat metal, why not bearings?

No one calls it an oil additive when it is used on rifle barrels.

Quote:

I'm always skeptical of 'I do everything for you' claims. If this were so good, the car manufacturers who are desperate to eke out a tenth of a MPG would be all over it.

Manufactures make billions off of parts, they can lobby for a mpg. Manufactures are not going to wipe out there parts business for mpg.What can a person do to address the IMB weakness, short of taking the engine apart, if the car already has 60k and is running fine?

Is there a way to get a friction reducer into the bearing without taking the whole engine apart?

mikefocke

You need to go to the LNengineering.com web site and read up. The IMS bearing replacements for '97-'05 986s is available and in the design I suggested. Around 1800 have been installed, some since late '08. It is installed from the rear of the engine with the transmission removed, generally for a clutch replacement.

The case split is due to the design of the third generation IMS only, generally '06-'08.

I'd be interested in any reference to a Porsche test of this magic metal coating. It is not suggested in any of their latest TSBs on oil use.

Sumflow

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikefocke

The case split is due to the design of the third generation IMS only, generally '06-'08.

Pardon me mike. I should have said I did not want to split the transmission from the engine. I see what you mean Mike. If we can get close enough to inject the hardener into the bearing, we can just replace the whole thing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by mikefocke

It is installed from the rear of the engine with the transmission removed, generally for a clutch replacement.

Nobody wants to buy a car then have to pull the transmission out prematurely. Cost is always a factor buying pre-owned Porsches. At a clutch change we can just replace the bearing every time. It’s a pretty cheap fix to get the new bearing.



http://www.pelicanparts.com/techarti...ft_Bearing.htm

It should last as long as the clutch. But from the time that you get the car until that first clutch goes. An owner needs to have some kind of plan. The Microlon treatment might work, is very inexpensive and is better than doing nothing at all.

Quote:

I'd be interested in any reference to a Porsche test of this magic metal coating. It is not suggested in any of their latest TSBs on oil use.

This is the mistaken belief probably caused by Microlon's own lame brain advertising. I am not talking about their car wax. The Porsche does not need or use Microlon as an oil additive. All we are doing is coating the metal with a friction reducing treatment one time. It is kind of like graphite it coats, and the heat bonds it to the surfaces on both sides. Probably within the hour. You can drain the oil the next day it will not matter. http://www.microlon.com/PDF/microlon_instructions.pdf

The one time application sticks to the parts where they rub against each other. The coating rubs against itself on both sides, reducing heat and wear. It cannot fix a broken part, but it will reduce wear on coated friction surfaces, particularly those that do not have the proper lubrication under load.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jake Raby

No matter how often you change the oil in the engine- The IMS bearing will see ZERO of it!

Because we are targeting a specific bearing that we can only get into after the inner seal breaks. Annual treatments might be necessary until the bearing itself can be replaced.

The referance to the Porsche test is shown in the first post in this thread http://www.motreq.com/Document/porschetest.pdf The Porsche people felt that the improvements shown were significant. Mileage increased 9.8%. The way they check it on piston aircraft is as soon as you put it in planes, they gain a few hundred rpm and keep them. The way Porsche users can easily test the results for themselves is to check their mileage before the treatment and compare it to their mileage after the application. Then check it again every 100,000 miles.

If an automobile company could make a car that would never wear out and run on water. It would probably be illegal for them to do so. Their first obligation is to the shareholder. Shareholders expect a perpetual return on there investments.

achtung911

I had the ln bearing put in. I have a certified pcar tech here in Portland Oregon that does work for $60 an hour. Awesome guy! Pm if anyone wants his info. He did the ln bearing clutch and rms for me.

No affiliation btw...

perfectlap

score!

ivangene

first off Hi,

long time blabber mouth here... looking at your forum. I have done a lot of IMS inspections and this is a good bit of info in the first paragraph - in ~15 IMS bearing I have inspected under high magnification I have not seen grease in any - only stinky old oil

today an 05' S rolled in on flatbed and was diagnosed with IMS failure at 24k miles - makes me sick to my stomach, I hope things work out and I have beat the drum plenty.... replace it because if it fails, its all over in a few seconds.

I will re-read all the claims above about oil and teflon - maybe some of that makes sense. I think what causes the oil to fill the bearing is internal presure on the IMS shaft as it heat, the air expands and is forced by the seals.... then when the shaft cools the a vacuum is formed and what ever oil is just around the bearing is sucked into the bearing (and shaft) many shaft become pretty full of old oil.

anyhow if this is like the 996 forum we tire of IMS threads, dont mean to rain on anyones day, hope everyone's lasts forever and you have to worry about your tops and tires more than your motors

Best Regards
Ed

PS if you get bored and want to read some stuff on an amazing grease - google 3M product called Krytox and check out the ball bearing tests - good stuff!

03boxman

Krytox has the same problem as silicone oil. Once it's on a surface hydrocarbon oil can't wet the surface again. Hydrocarbon oil will bead just like water on a windshield treated with Rain-x. Also, Krytox can only be cleaned off using Freon based solvents and you can't buy these more.

Krytox has it's place...but don't mix it with other lubricants.

flintworks

I've done several of the LN engineering IMS retrofits. It's a great product and they haven't had a single failure with their bearing. I have some pictures and a video on my website from the first one I did http://www.flintworksauto.com/ims_retrofit

Optical TDI

How many hours labor does this normally take you?

schwank

Last July I had the clutch done in my 01S with around 70K miles and I had the LN IMS bearing installed. I had seen another 986 in the same local shop with an IMS bearing that disintegrated and that was all I needed to see.

My car was one of the last with the two row bearings and when opened they had definite signs of wear... not immediate impending failure but long term something was gonna get ugly. I bought the full kit with the removal tool and it looks like I was charged 4 hours of labor to do the job. LN was great and shipped both single and double row kits to me as my car was already down and we were unsure which bearing I had from the factory, and accepted the return of the parts I did not want without hassle.

Based on what I saw it was a worthwhile expense while I had the thing apart for a clutch job. I have almost 5K miles on it since then with no issues. I will say it was a painful bill for a car at 70K miles (and to just look at again!) but it is a Porsche and is to be expected at 10 years old. So it got a short shift kit for good measure to enter middle age in style. Change the oil every 5K with synthetic, take care of other maintenance as necessary, and drive the snot out of it.

Stephen Tinker

Ditto as per schwank - the dual row bearing in my 2001 S had done 48,000 miles when we replaced it last September. The original bearing was in good condition, but I put that down to luck & oil changes every ~5,000 miles since new.....Mobil 1 by the dealer up untill 37,000 miles and Shell Helix Ultra 5W40 since then.

streaydog

Would any of you guys recommend cancelling a extended warranty to cover the cost of a new clutch and IMS upgrade? 05 Boxster 29000 Miles

sjfehr

There was a post a few weeks ago, I think it was on the 987 forum, about a study that linked IMS failure to cars that were driven far too softly; seems that high rpms are require to properly lubricate the bearing. Cars that were tracked, or regularly "drove it like you stole it" rarely suffer IMS problems, whereas garage queens and babied cars suffered much higher rates.

Might as well err on the side of caution

Edit: https://rennlist.com/forums/987-foru...che-email.html