Flying Finn

[quote]Originally posted by Harold:
<strong>

Another great point of view. What is interesting is that it appears that for many the definition of a Drivers Car appears to be a car that requires more involvement to get 110% out of it, but that rewards more once the driver has got passed the initial stages of learning the car (ie: the marginal utility is greater on such a car).

In that respect, I guess it would always be much harder to get the additional gains out of the newer generation Porsche's given they have such excellent driver aids (and assuming that the aids are always left on)...</strong><hr></blockquote>

This is how I see it.

And if we're not racing against each other, last tenths (maybe aided by pms etc.) aren't the important thing (obviously, this doesn't mean i.e. that GT2 isn't faster than 996, or 993 faster than BoxsterS etc.), IMO, it's the 'thrill' of driving & getting more out of it.

I'm kinda guy that rather drive around the track without pms & other that kind of driver aids. Those aids' will make mediocre driver faster but certainly takes litlle bit 'fun factor' out of it.

And I feel comfortable in 911 with tail hanging out when I want it. And boy it's fun!

Like the test in Excellence (few issues back) where Johannes Van Overbeck tested 1973 911 RS & brand new GT2. After driving both, he said he'd rather take 911 RS than GT2. Why?

More 'driver's car', more involment (and GT2 isn't very lame! ) and thrill.

I know it's not for everyone (and based on new cars, not for most of us), but for me, that's the way I see it & want it.
There are plenty of choises for those who want their cars with cupholders, pms' etc. for those who want them, but I don't, and I think 'real' sports car doesn't need them.

Well, sorry that this has gone out of what original post was about.
I guess I should shut up now!

Rob in WA

The 996 was in development since the early 90's, many of the components on the Boxster were originaly designed for the 996. The 3.4l 996s are signifigantly lighter then the 993s and all have a lower drag coefficent, more horsepower, etc. After having the back end slide out on me in my old 911 a few times I was scared to really push it. Not so in my 996, where the older 911s punished you for lack of skill, the 996/986 enhances it. I still like the exterior of the 993s, but I love the interior of the 996/986 and that's where I plan on spending most of my time.

In regards to PSM, there is a Special "driver skill" feedback loop associated with the system. If PSM is activated more often, the system monitors controller activity and wheel speed in order to estimate the thermal load at the brakes. If a preset limit is reached, the system will either modify inputs (e-gas manipulation) or outputs (throttle change), as well as gear change if Tiptronic equipped, in order to slow the car down.

What this means is that PSM will give a driver skilled enough to keep PSM activations brief and infrequent the full benefit of normal braking and throttle functions. Conversely, with a driver who continually counts on PSM to save the car from disaster, the system will eventually start to retard power and gear selection rather than using the brake functions. In other words, PSM will reduce available power at the limit.

The more skillful driver gets more of the car's capabilities.

My 996 didn't come w/cupholders either FF

Ken, I am also curious as to your source for your claim that the Boxster is safer then the 996 in a rollover.

Ghost Rider

Porsche Boxster Brochure shows the cage of the Boxster with the statement that due to special reinforcements the Boxster exceeds the standard of the coupe in roll-over protection.

I assume they mean by that the "crumple" or "crush" effect of rolling over, not tossing the driver out, etc.

I think it is pretty clear that someone inside a car who hits their head on the top of a car while it is rolling over is going to suffer the same injury as someone who hits their head on the ground while rolling over in a Boxster should their head stick out above the rollbars. The thin sheetmetal of the roof of the Coupe isn't going to provide protection like an airbag. Thus I think their statements are formed on the basis of the amount of deformation that takes place in a roll over and the windshield pillars are reinforced in a Boxster vs. a 996.

Flying Finn

[quote]Originally posted by Rob in WA:
<strong>...My 996 didn't come w/cupholders either FF
</strong><hr></blockquote>

I know Rob,

It's only newer 996s problem.

User 41221

wow... did someone mention "religion"? lol Just lurking through the Boxster boards for the first time today, and holy cow... lots more activity than when I subscribed to the Boxster email list a couple of years ago, and all the discussion was about cupholders.

Lets try to remember we are all members of the same family here, and like the Boxster has allowed the company to survive through the 90's, the 944 did this in the 80's, and hopefully the Cayenne will do so this decade. There seems to be a bit of "my 9xx does this, that and everything else better than any other car ever built" going on here, and general bs'ing like "I was driving so hard on the track that I had to turn my cd player off" kinds of comments that cheapen the whole experience for everyone (um, if you are really listening to the radio on the track at a DE, you are either stupid or have no respect for others property, and shouldn't be allowed on the track in the first place!). Get real with it. I have news for you folks with hot cars... there is ALWAYS someone else coming around with something faster, or able to wrestle a better performance out of a lesser car than you can with your hotrod. Even Mario Andretti loses occasionally. I have seen lots of y'all driving out there, and most of you couldn't walk in Mario's shadow, nuch less drive like him. So quit bragging and really go to the DE's, pay attention, and you might learn a thing or two.

I meet lots of Boxster owners that have zero clue what Porsche ownership is all about, simply because its their first Porsche, and they haven't learned yet. Same with lots of folks that just purchased their 944 or 996. Same with me, when I bought my first Porsche, and I bet most of you could say the same thing. Give them time, they will learn, or they will go away when they find the next "cool thing", and leave the real Porsche enthusiasts to enjoy the cars for what they were made for... to be driven. Enjoy them all, folks, they are ALL good.

Regards, ...Scott

Ghost Rider

Uh Scott, you might want to read a little more closely before you insert your foot into your mouth. I was the one saying that I was listening to a CD at a DE event. I did this on purpose to see if with musical encouragement I could eek out better times and thus had my lap timer compare music inspired vs. "silent" laps to see if I did any better. The CD player was skipping so much though that it was hard to be inspired by the music. If you would look at my profile a little better you'd see that I was the yellow Boxster S lapping all the other cars in my class including 2 red 944's in September at Heartland Park in Topeka.

I think my driving skills are well enough atuned to determine for myself whether or not "tunes" will make a difference in my lap times. I know my car's sounds well enough to tell you what RPM I am at and in what gear with my eyes closed, adding a bit of music to the mix for me makes it more "challenging" and makes me push myself more.

BTW, same holds true in video games as well.

Were my lap times any better? The first one with music on wasn't because I fiddled with the CD, but the second where I just went radio was the fastest time I turned that day. Not scientific I know, but worthy of consideration. Some people try new tires, I try new tunes. Always looking for that little edge....

Listen for me at Heartland Park come spring...

BTW, I prefer the sound of my intake and exhaust over any CD any day, so I don't plan to continue my experiment with music, I'll be experimenting with some new tires next time out and possibly a different set of brake pads.

Also I resent the fact that you are calling me "stupid" for doing this, but I'm sure you can tell me that to my face at the next PCA meeting.

User 41221

Okay, Ken, since you are volunteering on this one...

First, its not my intention to get into a flame war with anyone, as a matter of fact, I was hoping my post would have the opposite effect.

Number two, my foot is most certainly NOT in my mouth, and I stand by my comments. If ANYONE participating at track events at a DE level is foolish enough to be listening to the radio while they are on the track, then their attention is not ON the track, and they shouldn't be there, period. If you feel brave enough, why don't you go post that on the racing boards and see what response you will get. Thats not a comment one way or the other as to your skills as a driver, but in general when I hear a comment like that, I think "poser", and I am sure others do as well.

Thirdly, since you bring it up... timing yourself at DE's using a device like a hot lap timer is EXPRESSLY forbidden by the rules and regulations of both PCA as a whole and the organizers of the KC region, and quite frankly, I hope some of them are reading this. Again, your skill as a driver is not the question here, its a matter of respect for what the organization is trying to achieve. Sure, you may well be the next Michael Shumaker, but what about the ones who aren't as "skilled" as you... they see you take liberties with the rules, figure that they should be able to do the same, and next thing you know, you've got a car planted in the wall going into the staight at Heartland. Its a sign of disrespect at best.

Also, please note, this discussion is taking away from the spirit of my original comment, the spirit in which the original thread was started, and the spirit in which Rennlist was started, so if you have anything you want to say to me, either direct it in private to me or move it over to the racing boards. My email address is sh944@rennlist.com.

Lastly, I will be happy to call you "stupid" at the next beer night, as long as you let me buy you a beer. It should make for a good discussion.

Regards, ...Scott

Ghost Rider

Scott,

I think you are missing the point here. I never ONCE said my attention wasn't on the track or the tasks at hand. What I was curious about was whether or not music could have a positive effect on driving at the track. My ears are going to be listening to something aren't they? Whether it is the sound of my engine, my instructor proclaiming "Oh God", or that cricket that somehow got into the car during the last stop in the paddock area. If you could show me that I was paying more attention to the music than to my driving and surroundings, then maybe I'd buy your argument, but I wasn't.

Lap timing? Come'on everyone does it, Al does it, Chris does it, my instructor was doing it. Sure it might be against PCA rules, but driving over 55mph is against the "rules" too, so unless you've never done that on a 55mph speed limit highway, then I don't think you need to be casting any stones my way. For the record I don't time every lap, nor do I communicate with someone as to what my times were while I am driving the car. When my runs are done, then I pull up what my times were to analyze where I am making progress vs. where I am not. Experimenting with different lines, different tire pressures, etc. if I have no way of tracking how I am doing then I have no way of knowing whether I am making any improvements or not. Sure I can often "feel" when I have a better run, but sometimes it is so close I have no way of knowing without some timings. As long as the event isn't "officially" timed, I don't see anything in the PCA rules preventing me from having someone time my laps and tell me what those times were afterwards.

As for buying me a beer, I was at the last 2 pub nights, not sure if I'll be able to make the next one though, I think we are out of town, but I'll take you up on it at some point.

I better practice... <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" /> <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" /> <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" />

Ghost Rider

Scott,
Thanks for the beer tonight, but I think you forgot to call me stupid...

Christer

And everyone are friends again. How sweet!

User 41221

I figured "why state the obvious..." lol

Just joking, altho I guess I owe you another beer now, eh?

Regards, ...Scott

Ghost Rider

Scott,

I talked to Alan on the phone yesterday and he has 5 cars lined up in KC/Lawrence/Topeka to do in the spring, no set date yet. He said if you wanted your car done as well to give him a call.

Here's his contact info:

Alan Seligman
407-927-1900
invincaman@cfl.rr.com

Thanks again for the beer, I thought it was interesting that in Club Racing they let you listen to the radio, assuming you have one of course...

Eddie McLaughlan

Superjoint Ritual

Well I had not known the Boxster had this sort of aura around it, I had just recently thought about purchasing a Boxster because the price is right and well here is a short story: Yes I am very young and I don't like the Boxster because it's a hot new thing actually I am not sure if I have ever seen one around on the streets and to me Porsche is a true blue blood that takes a certain type of person to own and drive, as well for all the short years I've been around the Porsche in general has been my moms most desired car so I naturally had a certain impression about Porsches and my grandfather who was from Germany use to owned a Porsche, I think it was in the late 50's or somewhere in the 60's so I am not jumping on a band wagon..perhaps a short family thing. I am not fond of the older models mainly because of the big round lights and bumper that looks like the car is smiley like a VW bug, none the less I have a great amount of respect for Porsches, I just like the sleeker look.