brianmch

Sounded like the pully pogoed around in there when it sheared off from your first post. I was thinking a hose of some sort and then saw your pics above.

Only you can determine if its worth the fix or not. How long did you drive it hot? You will have to disclose the above to a prospective buyer and probably accept a very, very low offer as the buyer will have to pay or fix the prob. Worst case is new engine. If that's the case you have just created an opportunity for someone to drop a hotrod engine in it for track use. Or buy an 80Kmi off fleabay for $3K and spend $3K for the install.

This isn't just a Pcar prob. All cars have parts that fail and can be expensive to fix. Lexus RX350 Oil return line is rubber and fails, puking out all oil. Ouch! Replacement is metal which it should have been originally. Toasted engines are not uncommon. Pcars are pretty unusual though and can have failures not noted in more conventional designs.

If you are really short on cash there isn't much of a solution besides learning to wrench. All $5K cars can have probs which is why they're $5K and not a $10K. You spend either way: pay more to buy reliability or pay to fix.

Good luck and keep us posted.

rob delorenzo

Got the car back from the mechanic. New alternator pulley and clutch, new belt, fixed hose leak. He told me he brought it up to temperature and it didn't leak or overheat.
He even told me that he drove it. I drove it for maybe an hour and there didn't seem to be any problems. I thought that I had dodged a bullet. The temp gauge never got above 195 the whole time, even when I got home.

Then as soon as I got home and pulled into the garage and stopped the motor, I heard a hissing sound and coolant leaking out onto the floor by the passenger rear wheel. The inside of the trunk was dry, as well.

Not a whole lot of coolant leaked out, but it doesn't look good, does it?
What would the symptoms of a blown head gasket be?
Isn't there a coolant overflow back there? Am I deluding myself thinking that it just may have been spitting out some overflow?
I can't call the mechanic until the morning, but what should I look for in the mean time?
Today, 08:09 AM #26 robdelorenzo
Registered User

Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Los Angeles
Posts: 23

Anker

Its just overflow from the coolant expansion tank. You either have air trapped in the system or the mechanic overfilled the expansion tank.

paulofto

+1 on air in the system. an airlift type of vacuum system will pull it out and add in the proper amount of coolant.

Also, make sure you have the latest coolant cap ending in '04'

brianmch

Maybe a dodged bullet Rob. Fingers crossed for you.

rob delorenzo

It just keeps getting better.....I brought it in to him leaking coolant from the overflow. He suggested that it might be the cap. We changed the cap and I drove home. It's still not circulating properly and sending the heated coolant out the overflow. He now says that something in the circulation system was cooked by the overheating. The water pump, the thermostat, where the impeller blades connect to the pump shaft may have melted, radiator, broken impeller pieces blocking coolant channels, etc. etc.
I'm really at a loss here now.
The temperature gauge does not register overheating, but it's obviously leaking and something is wrong.
I'm trying to get back on my feet from surviving cancer, unemployed, and no more money to put into this car right now (or at all?)
At what point do I walk away or keep dumping money into it?
The engine seems to run fine, The engine seems to run fine and after letting it cool off for about an hour I can see that the coolant tank is only about 1/3 full (of course 3/3 full would be way too much. Point is a fair amount of coolant came back out the overflow and something is wrong.
Should I cancel the insurance, keep it garaged, and slowly save up and fix the cheapest thing first (thermostat?) or is there just going to be so much collateral damage from the meltdown that I walk away and sell it as a roller?
Another mechanic I just talked to told me to have the test done for hydrocarbons in the coolant. If there are, he said to walk away. He also said that the coolant is circulating, since the gauge is not showing abnormal readings or overheating and that it could still be more air in the system.
Please offer advice. I'm desperate.

rob delorenzo

Thanks guys!
I am encouraged.
I just bled the system and then drove it up and down a very steep canyon road.
It's sitting in the garage now and only let out a few drops! from the overflow.
I'm going to let it cool down for a few hours and then drive it again.
Temp gauge stayed right around 190 which was good.
I need to change the oil from the meltdown tonight, which I have not done yet.
I also will also change out the water pump and thermostat as soon as I can swing it.
I will also need to flush the whole system.
I like the idea of multiple flushes, but not $120 in coolant again (still cheap insurance)
And yes, I did see the old pump when it was removed and all of the vanes were intact.
But so far, so good!
This is a new cap as of yesterday. I read on here to drive for a few days with the bleeder valve open. Is that a good idea? One guy said that's what they do when they race Boxsters. I'm just a daily driver guy, though.
This board is a lifesaver and I'm beginning to think that my mechanic is a "Worst case scenario" thinker. He's right in the fact that he doesn't cut corners and does lay out all possibilities though.
I LOVE my Boxster and need to listen to the warnings from now on.

rob delorenzo

Update:
I just took the car out to get new oil, a filter, and run a few more errands.
Along the way each time I stopped I sat down next to the ground near the passenger rear tire to listen for hissing or dumping coolant. I did not see or hear anything.

I live at the top of a steep canyon and as I was driving up the canyon the temp gauge rose a bit higher than it's (formerly?) normal temp of around 180. This time it was more like 190. It is a very hot and humid day here in Socal so that may account for some of it.

Anyhow, as soon as I pulled into the garage, guess what? Hissing and coolant started dumping out of the overflow. I had the wire in the up position the entire trip and I could hear air escaping from that valve. The coolant level in the tank is now is down to a bit more than 1/3 (from dead in between max and min) but certainly lower than it was when I started. At one point, while I was doing my errands I saw that the entire coolant bottle looked like it was full. It was almost all the way up to the black plastic.

I'm new to this car and new to all this. I'm learning what "normal" is from this forum.

Please let me know what's going on and if this is all part of the bleeding process or if I do in fact have some sort of coolant or circulation issue going on.

The oil is draining and looks pretty black to me. This is probably from the meltdown last weekend and it had been changed less than 1k miles ago.

Thanks in advance. This ought to be called Porsche University Online. I'm really learning a lot here!

rob delorenzo

This just in.....

I changed the oil and filter and the car does run well.

But (there's always a catch here) I think the mechanic is right in that there is a circulation problem. I jacked the rear of the car and got under it while it's running.
There is a steady stream of drips of coolant constantly coming out. When the car is moving they vaporize so quickly that I don't see them. When I get the car hot enough or when the heat soak occurs, it really starts dumping coolant.

From what I can gather it seems like it's more than just an air bubble. Tonight after the oil change when I took it out for a very brief drive (I am getting wiser here) the temp gauge almost immediately went up to 180 before I even got out of the driveway. (It's never done that before it used to take a while to get up to temp)

So now my questions are centered around why there is a constant dumping of fluid.
The mechanic told me that the cap is designed to vent at 15 psi or thereabouts. So what is causing this to happen?

So far my hypotheses as to why this is happening after the meltdown are:

1. The impeller blades melted or broke off and are clogging the radiator, the thermostat or worst of all a coolant channel in the engine.

2. The thermostat was destroyed in the melt down and is permanently closed and not allowing coolant to circulate.

3. The water pump is bad and/or the impeller does not create enough coolant flow.

4. The radiator(s) are damaged or clogged from the melt down.

5. The bleeder valve is permanently open and is allowing air into the system. Should the little part that rises when you lift the wire go back down to being flush with the top of the valve when it's closed? The rubber in it is of really poor quality and the wire keeps coming out of the holes and is ripping the side of the piece that it lifts up and down. If this were the case, would the coolant or steam be coming out from under the valve where I wouldn't see anything?

6. It's still possible that there's air in the system, but would it constantly be leaking coolant (which it is as I have now confirmed) if this were the case or would it just dump occasionally as I had thought it was doing?

7. A pressure test was suggested, but I know that the coolant overflow hose is where the leak is coming from. If it's the thermostat or internal problems in the engine that's not going to help diagnose anything, is it?

The strange thing is that tonight, as soon as I started the engine, there were drips of coolant coming out of the tube. From a stone cold start and it only started to flow more as the engine heated up. I had not noticed that happen before in the last few days since the mechanic fixed the pulley and belt.

This is very frustrating, but also kind of a fun (albeit expensive) challenge and a good learning experience. I plan on owning a Boxster of some sort until they pry it out of my old feeble hands many years down the road. So this knowledge is invaluable.

The question is where is the most logical and cheapest place to start given these symptoms? The temp gauge does not go into the red or even above 190 which is higher than it used to be prior to the meltdown. This is as it's spewing fluid out of the overflow.

I realize that I still may have an engine that's going to have a cracked head or cylinder looming in the future as a result of my idiotic decision to keep driving during the melt down last weekend. This line of thinking leads to me not putting too much more money into what's going on and walking away after inspecting the water pump and replacing the thermostat and/or the bleeder valve if they are indeed bad.

But, I also have faith that once I can figure out why it's leaking coolant I may have a chance to have many more miles of "Happy Boxstering" ahead. The challenge is to get to that point without going broke first!

Please keep up the flow of good advice. I feel like we are zeroing in on where the culprit may be.

Thank you!

Macster

There is the possibility the water pump got damaged when the alternator went south.

What you can do is when the car is cold top up the coolant tank with enough distilled water to bring the level up to somewhere between the min and max line. I prefer filling the system close to but not over the max level line. Be sure you put the cap on correctly -- they are easy to cross thread -- and it is fully tightened down.

This probably wants to be done at a shop with a proper lift. With the car cold and safely in the air start the engine and let it idle. Lif the car and then from under the car carefully feel the water hoses to see if the coolant is flowing throughout the system.

You'll have to wait a while as the engine has to idle long enough to warm the coolant in the engine enough to open the T-stat.

Be aware hot coolant can leak out at any time.

If you get any signs of leaks or overflowing before you feel the hoses to/from the radiators get warm turn off the engine and then identify the source of the leak.

It can take a bit of time before the return flow is warm. The radiators hold considerable coolant and at first the hotter coolant will just push the cold coolant out and back to the engine. But the hoses from the engine to the radiators should warm up pretty quick.

Overflowing suggests hot spots are forming and creating steam pockets which grow and force out coolant. Steam pockets form due to lack of coolant flow.

This can be due to a water pump that has lost its impeller blades -- due to excessive bearing play which allows the impeller to make contact with the block (the impeller blades are designed to run with very little clearance as this increases the efficiency of the water pump) or possibly as collateral damage from when the alternator lost its pulley and belt flew off.

There is the possibility the loss of coolant flow raised temperature and pressure and forced coolant into the water pump seals/bearings.

If the blades have been knocked off the pump it can't circulate coolant and as the engine runs the hotter spots will create steam pockets.

Another explanation if the hot coolant doesn't flow is the T-Stat has failed.

The above test helps you confirm the water pump/T-stat are working as the hot coolant should at some point flow from the engine to the radiators and back again..

I recall the coolant tank was replaced. I assume the coolant tank was replaced with a new one and a Porsche coolant tank? Even so a new one can be bad. Granted this is rare but there is a reason why Porsche offers a 2 year/24K mile warranty on parts.

rob delorenzo

Thanks Macster, this is some solid advice.
Is this something that I can try at home raising the front end of the car and carefully getting underneath it? This will really help to further narrow down what's going on.

The tank was replaced about 2 months ago by the mechanic. Sadly, I cheaped out and bough "The German" one from Pelican and not the Porsche one. The mechanic only uses Porsche parts and told me that these ones are not as good. It is under a 2 year warranty though.

If the water pump is indeed toast and the impeller blades are gone, does this mean that a catastrophic failure is in my near future? From what I have been reading, I haven't seen too many success stories of engines with impeller pieces lodged in them somewhere. If that is indeed the case, do I just drive it until that happens or is it even worth spending the $500 or so to replace the pump?

On the other hand, if the thermostat is the problem and the pump is still good, then am I correct in assuming I have a chance at the car lasting a while?

You guys have been so helpful to me and I really appreciate it. It's also great to be able to cross check what the mechanic has been telling me and so far, he's been completely straight with me, which is also encouraging.

Thanks and please keep the replies coming as I still have 2 days left of a long weekend ahead.

Macster

Just to try to bring some order to the situation I see two possible problems. One is the replacement coolant tank has failed (prematurely to be sure). If the system can't hold pressure it can't prevent hot coolant from flashing to steam. This can force hot coolant out any overflow tube or through the bad tank possibly even past the cap if the pressure is enough.

The other possible problem is if the pump has suffered impeller damage -- more likely if one detects bearing play at the water pump -- and this can result in insufficient flow of coolant through the engine. The engine will of course warm up and get hot as it idles but as the T-stat opens little to no coolant will flow. Might mention too if the water pump impeller is gone the T-Stat may not open at the usual time as there is no coolant being circulated not even past the/through the T-stat.

If the engine is left to run much longer the engine will create hot spots that even if the system is normally able to hold pressure the hot spots and the resulting steam pockets force coolant out at any convenient place. The over flow hose. The cap. Maybe through the water pump seals or a marginal hose or coolant fitting.

You might want to wait for your mechanic to get involved. The trouble may not be that serious, serious enough to be sure but not dire, at least not yet, but you can make it serious by, and I mean this in the nicest way, "messing around" and thereby making things worse.

If the blades are gone from the impeller with the T-Stat removed with the proper hardware/adapters and a tech might have this hardware one can use a garden hose to back flush the cooling system. Some report catching all the fluid and any debris filtering it through cheesecloth or panty hose to try to determine if the volume of debris is comparable to what was lost. I'd do this but I have my doubts one could tell from the debris if he got it all out of the engine.

If the water pump is showing signs of leaking or with the belt removed has any bearing play I'd just skip the test I mentioned and budget to remove the pump and T-stat.

In case the pump impeller is damaged if you want hold off ordering the new water pump and T-stat. Then once the water pump is off and if you find the blades missing then it is your call, or that of your mechanic, if you back flush the system and install a new pump/T-stat or write the engine and possibly the car off.

If the blades are gone were it my engine I'd be willing to try to save/salvage the engine and radiators with a back flush and take my chances.

Otherwise, one is looking at a pretty complete engine tear down - read $$$$ -- with still the risk of not being able to remove every bit of debris.

A T-stat failure is rare. They almost always last as long as the water pump and the SOP is to when replacing the water pump always replace the T-stat.

My advice is to sit tight until you can the car back to the mechanic for a proper diagnosis. If you suspect the water pump has suffered impeller damage you should not drive the car any and any running of the engine should be kept to a bare bare minimum and really unless one is confident in his abiities in this area probably only run under the direct supervision of a professional mechanic.

rob delorenzo

Thanks Macster.

I am waiting until the mechanic opens in the morning. I'm in over my head.

I did loosen the belt and am pretty sure I felt some vertical play in the water pump pulley, which can't be good.

I guess it's a question of how bad it is regarding the impeller and any collateral damage.

From what I understand it's possible that it will run fine for a while and then grenade as well, if I decide to install a new water pump and thermostat.

The car is not worth a rebuild, that's for certain.

But it might be worth fixing and gambling on it lasting a while, depending what we find out.

We will know soon enough.

rob delorenzo

I talked to the mechanic at length yesterday.
He wants $1100 to replace the water pump and thermostat!
I'm not willing to gamble that kind of money at this point.
Call me crazy, but I'm going to DIY the water pump and thermostat, flush the system, clean the front radiators, and see what happens.
I'll gamble the $300, some skinned knuckles perhaps, and an afternoon to see what's going on. If it still leaks or the head gasket is blown or worse, than it's either for sale or to the scrap yard it goes.
On the other hand, if it solves my problem and best case scenario is I get some more life out of the car or can sell it while it's running.
Worst case is I'm out $300 and some time.
Inspecting the impeller will reveal a lot and where to go from there.

brianmch

I'm sure someone else will chime in but I think the WP & Tstat are both doable. One of my buddies did his on his 02 box.

Do plenty of research first as I've needed to buy some different tools (hexes, safety stars, etc) for some things. Look to Pelican (can I say that here) and through the list here for some DIY info. It may even be in Wayne's 101 book. Your mech should have replaced the belt already so that is a re-use item.

The front rads are easy to clean with compressed air/power washer.

I get to do a WP/Tbelt/shebang on my daughters 01 Lex LS400 shortly. That's kind of a pain but a weekend gets it done and saves $1K in labor that she needs to spend elsewhere.

Keep us informed.