burglar

More fun data:
I just drove 1,100 miles round trip and went to a site four full days in a row, all for a grand total of 15 runs. Like 12 minutes of seat time.

I can't afford W2W, but I like track days, time trials, karting, and even ice racing to break up the long winters here. Different types of thrill, that affect each one of us differently. The short, intense hit of AX though - particularly National level AX - woo baby, that's my drug of choice. Any day spent playing with cars is better than sitting at home and mowing the lawn.

DeanClevername

I think you're experiences are accurate about autoX, except with some other clubs you might spend as much/more time and get less runs. I think the PCA events are well run and efficient given the limitation of having at most 2 cars on course at once. If your measure is sheer seat time, HPDE is the way to go. Personally, I can't really compare the two as they feel like such different experiences.

This is only my second season autocrossing, but I think the limited seat time is one of the major attractions. It adds an intensity that I just never experienced doing many DE, or HPDE. You have at most 6 chances to nail a course you've never driven before, and you're competing against folks who are trying to do the exact same thing. As some have said above, the pressure and intensity are addictive.

I really like working the course too. You get to meet/hang out with people who are into cars (a dying breed?), and you get to be in really close proximity to cars on the course. Plus it's cheap!

If you want more autox seat time per day, I know Capital Driving Club lets you run two entries so you can get 12 runs. You can also elect to run your 6 in the morning, which is nice when it's 90 deg out or your wife is gives you "that look" when you've been gone all day... again.

CosmosMpower

Yep autocross is a lot of standing around and a little driving. It gives you an element of competition for a small price.

JayG

Ahh, well you asked the correct person as I am this years Corner Working Chair

The run groups are a set of 3 run groups per corner working group and there are 6 corner working groups (see pic below) we have 6 schedules that rotate the run groups so during the year each group is at each position. We run ~12 AX a year. Generally we have 11-18 drivers per run group and 8-10 corner stations

I take out the first group as soon as the track walk is over. The subsequent corner groups and call to assemble when the 3rd run group of the set is called to grid. Once all are checked in, usually less than 5 minutes, they are taken out and the corner workers are swapped out.

It actually works pretty smoothly and well. It may be that everyone has been "trained" in the process. Also instructors work the corner with their students

MGW-Fla

I'm the AX Chair for Fla Crown. We've revived our AX program this year after not having one for over 13 yrs. We've had 40-50 cars at each event so far, charge just $30, & allow non Porsches. There is a good AX camaraderie between several local car clubs as we all use the same course site. Safety is paramount & so far everyone has top notch behavior.

Your concern regarding down time vs. course time is one I try to stay aware of. I split the cars in to 3-4 run groups of 10-15 cars. Less cars & more run groups seems to work better for us. When a group is on course, the most we can have is two cars running at once. The smaller run groups allow for minimal wait time between each car's runs while they're on course, which drivers have said they like. They don't like sitting idling with their windows down in the Fla heat, while they are 15-20 cars deep in line until their next run.

Smaller run groups also allows a larger number of available workers who aren't running. With the 1st car out around 9 am, everyone gets two 4 run sets. We offer a lunch break between the two sets, but everyone always wants to skip lunch & stay on course. Last event we wrapped up the last runs around 1:30, which avoided the worst heat of the day & potential rain; and it still allowed participants the rest of the afternoon to do something else. We've considered/offered to run a third set, but most have said the eight runs was a good number & preferred not staying later in the day.

It also allows for those of us running the event plenty of time to pack up 150 cones; equipment; tents; tables; etc, & still get home before the end of the day. For your next AX, offer to arrive prior too & then stay after to help your organizers set up & pack up; If more did that, it might free up time for them to possibly fit a few more runs in. Remember, every person at a PCA AX is likely just a member like you who enjoys driving their car, and that is especially true of those running the event. Our 1st event this year I didn't even get to drive my car & only got one ride along with our Zone Rep.

And being a DE participant the past 6 years, I agree that there is no comparison between a DE & AX. For a DE, I have to take off on Friday; Drive two hours to Georgia; Stay in a hotel two nights; Get home on Sunday evening. That's three days of my "car event credits" with my wife & much more expense than an AX. We have a good group of DE friends so it also is more than just the track time. But an AX offers participants some fun, inexpensive, intense concentrated driving of your car; fun with fellow enthusiasts; and you've only invested 3/4 of a day & less than $100.

sjfehr

Yes, autocrossing and also getting home early are both desirable things! We actually get complaints if our autocrosses go past 3pm because everyone is so used to getting 4-6 runs and still getting home by 2 and having the rest of their Sunday afternoon. Not having to pack up in the dark really helps mitigate staff fatigue, too.

edfishjr

Many different schemes... lots to think about.

I guess our local group has too many srsbzns two--driver cars to ever stand for small run groups.
1. They have to have time between runs, especially when it's really hot, for the switch-out, tire and motor cooling, etc. otherwise the 200TW tires overheat and the times are skewed. So, if we had a 10 to 15 car group, I think the cycle time might actually be too short!
2. The folks that go to SCCA national events know very well that to play that game the "get it done in three' issue is paramount. They know that the time achieved beyond the 3rd run is deceptive. We have plenty of people that are good drivers that can get it done in 6 or 8, but can't seem to learn how to be fast on the first run and faster yet on runs 2 and 3. It's a different sport for the folks that assume that they might have to stand on the first or second run in competition. It's not that more seat-time is bad, or not fun, or that it's not helpful to keep thinking about how to get faster on a particular course, but you need a way to focus on the first 3 runs if you ever want to play that game. Some clubs agree to DNF all runs after 3 for the Pro class to force this focus, for instance. We don't do that, but I like our system of 3 or 4 runs at a time, a break, and 3 or 4 more. If it were up to me, I'd always treat the two sessions as two events and add the times. Sometimes we do that.
3. We also have a large number of people who really don't care to be there until 5 PM. 6 to 8 runs and out by 3:30 or 4 is preferable to them. I have no idea what they do... maybe go home and cut the grass? Autocross is life, people!

JayG

Smaller and more numerous run groups is better with multi driver cars.

If your registration people have their crap together, they can make sure there is at least 1 session between drivers sessions. In my chart above, Green/Blue, Red/White and Yellow/Green all have at least 1 session between runs.
Maybe its just that we have the system down. Our AX run like clockwork and we are known for having great events.

You really have a problem with 200TW tires overheating on a AX run? How long are your courses?
You actually want most tires to be hot and that takes a run or 2 for that to happen. We have 5-6 laps per session and I don't recall any issues with overheated tires. It gets plenty hot in San Diego as well

edfishjr

I guess you separate the two drivers of the same car into different groups? That would fix that problem.

Our runs are normally 50s to 65s. Many find it easy to overheat RE71Rs or Rival S by the 4th or 5th run on a hot day/surface with 2 drivers and only 5 minutes or so between runs if you aren't spraying them. I think that once the core gets too warm the surface then overheats during the 2nd half of the subsequent runs and make it hard to produce a better time, less mistakes that get fixed. I've seen this in my data.

sjfehr

Codriver >5 min spacing has little to do with the length of the day or total # of runs, and more to do with heat size and spacing. Break up your heats so each run cycle takes about 15 minutes and you get both adequate time for dual drivers to spray and heat lengths are pretty reasonable for 4-6 runs.

I really don't like it when regions force codrivers to run the same heat in regional events if they don't want to; even WITH heavy spraying, my codriver and I often overheat our tires on hot days and it's hectic and physically exhausting, too. It's fine for national events when heats have huge numbers of competitors and there's lots of time between codrivers, but it's just not practical given small heat sizes at most regions, and has very little benefit over codrivers running different heats. Slightly greater chance of weather becoming a factor at some events, I guess, but at a certain point you just have to accept there's always going to be a compromise and you have to choose the best overall option for the needs of your region.

edfishjr

For competition reasons, we normally force all the cars in a class to run in the same heat, so both drivers of a single car must run together. Our heats are always 30 to 45 drivers, so the timing is usually just like a national event.

We accommodate exceptions when life gets in the way, but we reserve the right to make sure it doesn't skew the results.

Oh, yeah, there's a standing exception for ladies pax class. We never tell them when to run!

bkrantz

Think of auto crossing like golf. When you play 18 holes, how much time are you actually "playing golf"? A few seconds on each tee? A few more on each fairway, and maybe several seconds on each green. Even at 30 seconds of actual play per hole, thats just 9 minutes of action. A bit of the down time might involve concentration and planning, but most is just waiting and walking or riding.

Pusing the golf analogy further, DE and HPDE are like going to the driving range and wacking though a few buckets of *****. Lots more "action" but not the same.

I think of autocross as short but incredibly intense driving challenges, requiring full concentration and effort. You can get closer to this at on-track events, and with more seat time, in full-on wheel to wheel racing--especially if always pushing the limits and competition (i.e. no 13-13 rules).

MGW-Fla

Good analogy!

Earlydays

+1

JayG

You forgot the time drinking beer and smoking cigars