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Silly me: I bought a 944 for E-street Autocross

 
Old 03-23-2017, 10:40 PM
  #16  
edfishjr
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Updates:

- Tarret is held for a part that goes into their front sway bar setup. Paragon thinks 3 of 4 weeks before I get my bar. In the meantime, I may be able to get a 968 M030 bar.
- I ordered Porsche-original engine mounts from Pelican. Turns out they are not presently in stock. Waiting for availability info.
-I installed Brisk Racing Lamborghini-Type spark plugs. I used these in the Corvette and got a definite power boost. (Lane Borg did back to back dynos to prove this also.) The Bosch plugs I took out looked fine. I immediately noticed that the idle (and above) was smoother. More power? Maybe. I only got to test drive it with another person, vs. the previous drive with me alone. The car felt basically the same, but had an extra 180 lbs in there, so maybe. But, the engine definitely ran much smoother, indicating more efficient, even combustion.
-I took the phone-dials down to WheelFixit (get it?) to be refinished. They were in pretty bad shape, but not scuffed or curbed. That's where the tires are shipped to as well.
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Old 03-24-2017, 03:30 AM
  #17  
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Originally Posted by edfishjr View Post
So, if it's in the PET as an option, I say you could have ordered a car with them.
Historically I don't think that would have held water. There's all kinds of stuff listed in PET, and I'd certainly have expected a protest committee to want to see an order guide showing the part.

Theoretically things have changed now that Porsche Exclusive options have been ruled legal, but I'm not sure if this will have any effect in practice. I'd still expect a protest committee to request proof that a car was orderable in that configuration. PET is circumstantial at best, and my understanding is that Exclusive cars weren't very well documented back in the day. Given that, how do you convince the protest committee that those 8" fronts are legal?

Originally Posted by edfishjr View Post
The roll center in the front supposedly goes below the ground (at least some smart people think so... I haven't actually seen proof) if the lower control arm becomes less than horizontal. But, guess what? The world doesn't stop spinning if this happens. Nothing goes crazy. Corvettes have both roll centers very close to the ground and sometimes below, especially the front. The sun rises the next day.
My memory is *very* hazy (this was more than a decade ago), but I want to say that the subterranean roll center was being blamed for the massive body roll (and consequent wheelspin) that we encountered.
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Old 03-24-2017, 08:14 AM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by edfishjr View Post
Updates:

- Tarret is held for a part that goes into their front sway bar setup. Paragon thinks 3 of 4 weeks before I get my bar. In the meantime, I may be able to get a 968 M030 bar.
- I ordered Porsche-original engine mounts from Pelican. Turns out they are not presently in stock. Waiting for availability info.
-I installed Brisk Racing Lamborghini-Type spark plugs. I used these in the Corvette and got a definite power boost. (Lane Borg did back to back dynos to prove this also.) The Bosch plugs I took out looked fine. I immediately noticed that the idle (and above) was smoother. More power? Maybe. I only got to test drive it with another person, vs. the previous drive with me alone. The car felt basically the same, but had an extra 180 lbs in there, so maybe. But, the engine definitely ran much smoother, indicating more efficient, even combustion.
-I took the phone-dials down to WheelFixit (get it?) to be refinished. They were in pretty bad shape, but not scuffed or curbed. That's where the tires are shipped to as well.
I'm interested in your spark plug experience. Which Bosch plugs did you and Lane compare them against? How many miles were on them? I've heard (anecdotally) that most times people see improvements from new plugs it's because the old ones were bad, not because the [whatever] was any better than any other new plug. Plugs are certainly a cheap/easy upgrade path if it's true, though.
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Old 03-24-2017, 09:26 AM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by sjfehr View Post
I'm interested in your spark plug experience. Which Bosch plugs did you and Lane compare them against? How many miles were on them? I've heard (anecdotally) that most times people see improvements from new plugs it's because the old ones were bad, not because the [whatever] was any better than any other new plug. Plugs are certainly a cheap/easy upgrade path if it's true, though.
I agree completely that my experience is not scientific. They were std WR7DC. However, Lane did a back to back dyno test, new NGK (the accepted LS1 standard) vs Brisk and showed 7 lb-ft increase in the midrange.

These Brisks are the type where the tip protrudes and the spark travels sideways and up to whatever side electrode has the easiest (richest) path. People used to "index" spark plugs to get this effect. These are automatically indexed.

Last edited by edfishjr; 03-24-2017 at 11:17 AM.
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Old 03-24-2017, 11:14 AM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by PedalFaster View Post
Historically I don't think that would have held water. There's all kinds of stuff listed in PET, and I'd certainly have expected a protest committee to want to see an order guide showing the part.

Theoretically things have changed now that Porsche Exclusive options have been ruled legal, but I'm not sure if this will have any effect in practice. I'd still expect a protest committee to request proof that a car was orderable in that configuration. PET is circumstantial at best, and my understanding is that Exclusive cars weren't very well documented back in the day. Given that, how do you convince the protest committee that those 8" fronts are legal?
I haven't been able to find an "order guide" for those years like we can find for later years. Is that what they were called back then?

I'm doubtful that option 394 would be shown in the regular order guide. I'm thinking it would have been more like today's exclusive options, something you'd have to ask for when you ordered your car. I think in 1989, you could have pointed to the 1986-88 PET and said, I want those wheels on my car. I will continue to try to prove that.

I don't think this option would be comparable to "special wishes" where just about anything goes if you had the money. This was a wheel that was made in the hundreds if not thousands and have come up for sale from time to time. It was given a regular option number in two different PETs. I saw video of a race in France that had nearly 50 entries, all on this wheel and these races went on for 3 or 4 years in various countries.
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Old 03-30-2017, 06:36 PM
  #21  
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Update:

Measured the sway bars. Some previous owner put the M030's on it, which is really good because the 18mm rear bar was proving difficult to find.

Got the 7" phone dials refinished and put the new 225/45-15 Rival S 1.5 on them. I measured them at 22 and 5/8" diameter with 36 psi sitting flat on the ground. The gearing difference is very noticeable as compared to the ~25" tires that came off it. This is what I'll run for now until I have more proof that wider wheels are legal.

Installed SS braided brake lines. (Legal for a car this old.) The end fittings on the originals were quite corroded, as are the calipers. Really lucky I didn't ruin a hard-line, especially since it required an 11mm flare nut wrench, which I didn't happen to have and no one carries locally. I borrowed one after the first corner.

Last thing I really have to do before the first event (less than 2 weeks) is put the stock chip back into the DME. There will still be a couple of things "slightly" illegal that I'll discuss with my competitors.

Oh yeah, I need to dial-up some negative camber, too!
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Old 03-30-2017, 07:11 PM
  #22  
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Nice!

its definitely the coolest ES car. Who wants a Miata or mr2 anyways?
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Old 03-31-2017, 08:51 AM
  #23  
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Looking good Ed!

Something I've always wanted to scam - how long are the OE bump stops? If they're long enough, on a height adjustable car, you can legally get whatever spring rate you want in Street by making the "bump stop" a spring. Circle track roundy rounders have some pretty trick stuff.





Anything from stackable modular pieces of varying density and shape:



To flat out coil springs as bump stops:



Since I got hit with Deja Vu while typing this, looks like we've already discussed this here.
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Old 03-31-2017, 07:30 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by burglar View Post
Looking good Ed!

Something I've always wanted to scam - how long are the OE bump stops? If they're long enough, on a height adjustable car, you can legally get whatever spring rate you want in Street by making the "bump stop" a spring. Circle track roundy rounders have some pretty trick stuff.





Anything from stackable modular pieces of varying density and shape:



To flat out coil springs as bump stops:



Since I got hit with Deja Vu while typing this, looks like we've already discussed this here.
The front bump stops are substantial, but not as tall as on the 986. The rears are pretty short, at least on the std shocks. I've never seen a rear sport shock, but I assume it's a Koni sport yellow?

I may be wrong, but I don't think they were designed to augment the other springs like they were in the 986/996.

edit: I verified with the shop manual (I just received) that the M030 rear shocks were Koni sport yellows. They have bump stops called an "auxiliary rubber spring" which length appears to be about half of the available total rear shock stroke. Given that the car will compress the shock most of half way just sitting there, I think it might be possible after all to use the front and rear bump stops as you (and I) have suggested. I'll probably leave that for next year.

Last edited by edfishjr; 04-01-2017 at 12:02 PM.
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Old 03-31-2017, 07:48 PM
  #25  
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Alignment update

Going for max negative camber, front and rear.

After a first try, I've now got 2.5 and 2.25 degrees in front, left to right, zero toe, steering wheel centered. It started with 1 and .5 cambers and zero toe. My stock front is pretty high. Once I get the sport struts in there and the front end down a bit I expect to get 3 degrees, as others like Knfeparty have stated.

The rear was more of a problem. The right side didn't want to move. Took some chemical and dynamic persuasion. Started with .25 and 0 cambers and zero toe. In the end I had 1.75 degrees camber on the left but only .75 on the right and I'm not sure why. And I over-did the RR toe, ending up with 3/16 total toe-in, more than I think I want.

Now that I understand how it all works I figure another try at the RR will improve things. That will have to wait until the stock chip is back in.

edit: took another whack at the RR adjustment this morning and it moved some more. Now have 1-3/4 deg negative camber both sides and 1/8" total toe in. Close enough for guvment work.

Gotta love these old cars that had adjustability!

Last edited by edfishjr; 04-01-2017 at 12:07 PM.
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Old 04-01-2017, 06:48 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by edfishjr View Post
So here's the story. See if you guys think it holds water.

First of all, yes, there was M030 for the '89 944. Mostly, but not exactly the same as the Turbo M030. The springs were different, for instance. This is very clear from the 89-91 PET, which specifically limits these M030 parts to the '89 non-turbo, non-S2.

Like all PETs, the 89-91 PET has a list of options in the back. This is clearly not a compendium of all options ever offered as they change from PET to PET. They are specific to the years covered by that PET. M394 is option for the 16 by 8" and 9" magnesium phone dials that were used in the various 944 racing series in several different countries, including the US. Most were turbos, some were S2's, as I recall. I've actually seen one of the 7 US cars for such a series at Trissl in Florence, Alabama. It has these wheels and the offsets are known. It was always a longstanding tradition for Porsche to offer "special" wheels, such as the C2 Turbo wheels, on other cars. C2 Turbo wheels were standard on only one, low-rate model, but were available as options on C2/C4 and 968, for instance. Makes good business sense to increase the rate.

So, if it's in the PET as an option, I say you could have ordered a car with them.

Now, one could argue that I can't prove which year this option became available. Maybe it didn't become available until "90? I think I'm covered there also, because the same option is also in the 86-88 PET. The wheels were first used in 86 on the "race" version cars, so clearly they existed and were optional wheels long before '89. So, if M394 is in the earlier PET, it must have been available in the first year of the later PET.

I haven't researched 968's, but I'm pretty sure the C2 Turbo wheels (17 x 8 & 9) were an option for at least 2 years. I've found it multiple places. I think it was M403, at least on the 911.
I just found my 1988 Porsche fact Book and price book that lists standard equipment and options that can be ordered. It looks like option code 393 could ordered for a regular 944. 8/9jx16 "disc type" rims for $3540. LSD, sport shocks and M030 are also listed as orderable.
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Old 04-01-2017, 07:23 PM
  #27  
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Wow awesome find! What's 637?
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Old 04-01-2017, 08:04 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by msterling View Post
I just found my 1988 Porsche fact Book and price book that lists standard equipment and options that can be ordered. It looks like option code 393 could ordered for a regular 944. 8/9jx16 "disc type" rims for $3540. LSD, sport shocks and M030 are also listed as orderable.
WooHoo!

637 = "Performance Handling Package"

Not sure what this means, and I really need the same thing for 1989. One just sold on e-bay for $26

edit: Uh-oh. I found a picture of the 1989 Factbook on eBay. Options 393 and 394 are not listed there.
edit2: actually, what I found was a little fold-out pamphlet. There's a 98-page, internal sale brochure that seems likely to be the authority.
edit3: I found the fold out for 1987. It doesn't have 393 or 394 either. Does have 637 available for the standard 944.

I'm confused. Hard to believe that two different wheel options were 1-year only.
The way I would read the '88 data is that both 393 and 394 were wheel options that only came with the performance handling package, 637, which was probably sport suspension plus wider wheels and maybe some other stuff, and was limited to the 944S and Turbo. Not clear to me that the regular 944 in 1988 could get those wheels.

Last edited by edfishjr; 04-01-2017 at 09:10 PM.
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Old 04-01-2017, 10:35 PM
  #29  
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637 was Club Sport Edition in 1988 and could only be added to 944S or Turbo. 637 price was listed as TBA. The 393 could be added to any but cost less for the Turbo ( already had 8/9x16). I think they mean that 393 was included with 637 option but 637 could only be ordered for 944S or Turbo. Clear as mud.

I got the Fact Book and the Price List when I bought my used 1988 Carrera. It has been useful and I don't think too many are around. It covers all 1988 Porsche models.
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Old 04-01-2017, 11:45 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by msterling View Post
637 was Club Sport Edition in 1988 and could only be added to 944S or Turbo. 637 price was listed as TBA. The 393 could be added to any but cost less for the Turbo ( already had 8/9x16). I think they mean that 393 was included with 637 option but 637 could only be ordered for 944S or Turbo. Clear as mud.

I got the Fact Book and the Price List when I bought my used 1988 Carrera. It has been useful and I don't think too many are around. It covers all 1988 Porsche models.
So, 394 would be the similar? Orderable for any 944. The reason I ask is because I've seen other info that the 393 wasn't actually 8/9, but was really 7.5/9, whereas I have absolute proof that the 394 was 8/9.

I may have to buy a 1988.
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