sjfehr

I didn't say I disagree; GT3 aside, there seem to be too few competitively optioned porsches of the mainstream models survive in the wild to build a class around. I've been 987.2 shopping for over a year now and still can't find that unicorn with PDK, sport chrono and PASM- despite hundreds of cars on the market, it's just not to be found used anywhere in the country for any price. If such cars do exist, they're likely in such small numbers that even I would agree it would be foolhardy to set it up as "the car to have" for a class.

abqautoxer

Your words were the SCCA was afraid to class them a certain way... So yes I disagree with YOU because its bull****.

sjfehr

Sorry Tom, didn't mean to imply that. I suppose "afraid" is not the right word- I only meant to say I feel I understand why late model Porsches are presently classed the way they are in Street and Street R, and don't think they're at all classed unfairly. I just wish there was a better solution to the classing problems.

Think there may be opportunity for some SS also-rans to drop to AS in 2015, depending how the corvettes do this year?

abqautoxer

Yes there is always a chance to move cars, though unlikely. The issue is the 12 month rule which would force us to make these moves immediately after Nationals to be effective immediately and would carry over to 2015. None of us like this because of short notice so I don't think we'll use that window to move down cars but to move up "mistakes and oversights." While this isn't so great for those who are classed uncompetitively, it brings what little stability we can bring to the Stock/Street mess. The trick is be patient as we're already seeing people asking to move cars for Street which, regardless that some regions run year round, is more than a little premature.

Disclaimer: This is my opinion and the impression I get from a majority involved. However opinions can and will change including my own.

Hudyman

How about a 10 year interval power-to-weight ratio classing system?

2003-2013 8-10 lbs/HP Class 1
2003-2013 11-14 lbs/HP Class 2
1992-2002 8-10 lbs/HP Class 1b
1992-2002 11-14 lbs/HP Class 2b

PedalFaster

That could work, but it wouldn't change the fact that there are cars to have for each class. In Class 1, it would probably be the supercharged Elise (currently on the exclusion list); in Class 2, it would probably be the S2000 Club Racer.

I'm not saying this just to rain on your proposal -- turns out that creating a classing system that makes more cars more competitive than the current system is really hard. The only ones I can think of are:
...which leaves us where we are today, where a staff of dedicated volunteers tries to class cars in a way that makes the most popular / appealing cars the most competitive.

abqautoxer

The problem also with that classing system is it really doesn't change a whole lot. There are so many little things that factor in. Alignment specs, wheel sizes vs tire availability, electronic aids, ABS quirks, rev limiter, mph in 2nd gear, production availability, etc. When I asked everyone at the town hall at Nationals who really wants a limited production car like the S2000 CR to be the winning car for a class, 2 people out of maybe 80 raised their hands. So then we are back to either excluding cars or bumping them up classes so they are less competitive. The slippery slope of classing cars by more than one statistic begins again.

sjfehr

There is another option: points based allowances for SCCA Street, and maybe Street Touring. I don't meen NASA-X style class-bumping-on-points, but rather permitting a small # of mods (like we do now), but assigning each mod a points value, and each car a points allowance. Overdogs like CR and GT3 could be given a smaller points allowance, and underdogs allowed more modifications. Targeted mods (exhaust, shocks, sway bar) could be assigned lower points values than discouraged mods. This would help us maintain relative competitive parity within each class, and with a smaller # of classes.

There would be two side benefits: one is a means to avoid immediately classing novices with one or two insignificant mods straight up to SP or SM. Another would be a means to allow that ONE mod each type of car REALLY wants, but is too broad to give a blanket allowance for. For instance: camber plates, non-OEM width wheels, CF hoods, etc. As well as car specific "protective" mods with little competitive benefit- ceramic IMS, underdrive PS pully, oil baffles. If it's an untargeted mod, I'd think we would set a very high points value to discourage it. So if an FR-S driver wants to run reasonable wheels, he could do so, but on stock shocks and sway. Likewise, I'd jump at the chance to slot the shock towers on my 986S, and would happily give up trick shocks to do so.

e: I know this would never fly among our current competitors, but still... there are other solutions to these problems.

Hudyman

SCCA autocross classing is too complicated for newbies and the new kids coming up. I've been autocrossing for ten years now and I don't even understand the classing rules. With the current classing system we are creating an overly niche sport. Without broader appeal the sport runs the risk of losing steam in the long run. They need a simple 10-15 class power-to-weight system that groups cars based upon year range or type of car. If you look at the times at a local autocross or nationals it would be easy to create 15 classes total and everyone would be within a competitive range...

edfishjr

you really think you can create performance-based autocross classes primarily by power to weight ratios?

PedalFaster

Test case: A Subaru WRX STI and a Lotus Elise have very similar power-to-weight ratios. Should they be in the same class?

Test case 2: A Ford Focus ST has a better power-to-weight ratio than a Mazda MX-5 MS-R; should it be in a higher class?

jpgunn

I ended up getting the GT4 recently and I no longer need the wheels/tires for the 991 S. I ended up having these built, and only used them a handful of autocrosses.

Forgeline 19" GA3R Wheels $2,800 OBO Black centers, black rims.
19 X 9 ET 51
19 X 11.5 ET 68
Fit 991, 997 & 996 (spacer?)
Yokohama Advan AD08R 305/245 tires on wheels which are half worn.

https://rennlist.com/forums/parts-ma...l#post12571569