knfeparty

They are seeking input on MR and RR STU cars, widening the tire limit from 255 to 265. I already wrote them that no one would drive a 996 on 265s, unless it was an *average* 265 as in a 255/ 275 or a 245/285 combo.

They are also seeking input on 997TT to SS (yes please!). I wrote in on that one as well, and piggybacked saying it was time to move the 997 Carrera and the 997.1 Carrera S to AS.

burglar

There's currently no 911 listed in STU, nor a proposal for one to go there, so it may be a moot point.

I think a 987.2S would be quite competitive in STU on the 265/35-18 RE-71R. Looking at the specs it's a lot more tire than the 255/17. A 987 is close to the same weight as a C5 but with much more favorable weight distribution, polar inertia, and width. Not that the C5 is the top car, but it's competitive.

Still want to build an STR 986S even though it'd be a fool's errand vs the ND.

sjfehr

The biggest change here is that 265 means 987 no longer has to run narrower-than-OEM tires to be legal for STU which is a huge deal. I've always though trying to handicap cars with narrow tires was a particularly dumb way to achieve balance of performance in a class supposely catering to popular street tunes. Who in the world wants to put narrower tires on their Porsche?

kpl

I put that original request in, however the way they rewrote my proposal the TTS will still be excluded, so I still won't be able to come out and play in a street tire class. I think there needs to be a class (SSX?) for all the cars excluded from SS who want to run on street tires, instead of them being lumped into SSP with a bunch of wildly modded cars.

Raucky

knfeparty

but...like wasn't that the point of Super Street?

knfeparty

I wrote a letter calling them out on this specifically. Both my E39 M5 (STX) and the 996 would have to run narrower tires than OE. The M5 would have to get narrower wheels even!

burglar

If anything, we need to get rid of classes, not add them. It's selfish and shameful to constantly ask for a new me class. There's two much better options:

- Pick a class you want to run and choose the best car for that class.
- If you must run exactly the special car you want to run, run it where it fits in the existing rules even if it's not the most competitive car.

If you want the 997TTS to SS, write a letter with as much data as possible showing it's slower than a 991 GT3 in AX trim. Since they're seeking input it's definitely a strong possibility it can happen.

sjfehr

I disagree; I think we've long passed the point of no return with classes, and I think that's a good thing. Autocross isn't road racing, we don't have to have every car on track together to see who is the first past the post, we don't have to force cars to run stupid small tires or wheels for balance of performance, we can BoP just as well with math! Bump classing similar cars with index-matched BoP can be a great formula if done properly. Nearly SCCA region in the nation is using PAX. Which suffers problems due to course dependency in large part because we're trying to put too many cars into to few classes: if we try to run an Elise, a Z06, a Cayman and a GT350 in the same class on the same index, of course we're going to have problems. The other problem is the outliers: the buried cars, the excluded cars, and poor tolerance for many popular mods. We need more classes, not fewer. Which, ironically, can lead to fewer classes:

What if we only crowned a single national champion instead of dozens?

burglar

I appreciate your longstanding commitment to that philosophy, but I don't think I can be convinced to join in on that thinking.

I don't think we're far off from being able to have a computer model a "perfect" autocross run if we were able to give it the right input data. Solostorm can kind of do this with very basic inputs of a single, crude phone accelerometer and a GPS sensor, if given a some actual run data. There's more to go, but it's not implausible that, given the course and whatever car information it needed, we could have a computer program figure out a target time for each individual car. The winner would be then whoever got closest to what the computer thought was 100%.

However, that doesn't sound like racing to me. It sounds like trying to beat a computer game. I much prefer the judge to be whether I got from the start line to the finish line before or after the person next to me.

I will give that the system isn't perfect. I will also argue that it isn't broken, either.

ToSi

Yes.

ToSi

No.

DeanClevername

My scca experience is limited to just the last few years, but I've been puzzled by the intolerance for popular mods. While the existing touring classes are great, I wish that philosophy would be expanded more broadly. Coming in without knowing the history of classing, I struggle to understand why some very common mods can put you in classes that ostensibly require hoosiers and a serious budget to be competitive. The DC region Prepared classes only draw a small number of dedicated autocrossers, and seem predominantly filled with people who accidentally ended up there and have no ability or desire to modify their daily driver into a Prepared car on non-street tires. So they end up in lonely classes and don't experience as much a sense of competition or camaraderie, making it tougher to get hooked on the sport. However locally the Touring class approach is wildly popular and it seems like a given to expand that to more/all cars. There may be a very good reason things are the way they are now, maybe I just haven't heard it yet? I feel like I could use a history lesson here.

(I won't even ask about why it seems most all non GT3/4 Porsches are buried somewhere)

knfeparty

I've always guessed it's because the perception that Porsches are for Fancy Business People who eat caviar, which isn't the SCCA's target market. The SCCA wants to appeal to everyone. That makes sense. Unfortunately perception does not equal reality; we've got plenty of expensive domestics and asian cars, and plenty of cheap porsches to go round (hello 996 and 986/987) but regardless of what you pay for it, it's still a "fancy porsche" and no one wants to feel like they were beaten because the other guy out-spent them. Like at One Lap of America where mods are basically unlimited, I brought a reasonably fast car (E39 M5 with coilovers) but there was no way I could compete for top 10. I needed about another 80 grand worth of car at least. And I think that's a bad feeling to get, and that's the reason that the SCCA has traditionally buried Porsches. The reason you still see GT cars doing well is only because they have to go SOMEWHERE and they can't ALL go on the street class exclusion list, so they end up in SS. And not surprisingly they are damned good there.

But yeah the popular mods straight to Prepared is something that CAM addresses. Look at all the people having a blast in CAM because they stopped caring about the rules so much. There isn't really a JDM version of CAM, so local clubs end up doing "Street Mod Tire" for all the guys with subarus/evos/eclipses etc with boost mods or a piece of aero that pushes them straight to mod or prepared.

burglar

There's been some call for a class above STU, but it hasn't been met with much support. Cars exceeding STU performance typically already have pretty stiff suspensions and plenty of power. Come up with who this ST-amazeballs class would attract and why it would bring 30 cars to Lincoln and you'd have a shot.

As far as the notion of Porsches being "buried" I both agree and disagree.

Agree:
Some of that comes from the crazy Porsche option list - options like PASM, PTV, X51 powerkits, LSDs, PCCB, sunroof deletes, rear steer, XRR super wide wheels. There are plausible unicorn cars even though likely not a single Porsche is ever ordered as an SCCA special. Some comes from the fact that non-GTx Porsches historically don't show up even when classed well. I think 997s in general are boned, and all year turbos too, in Street at least.

Disagree:
That said, I think there's plenty of place to play in some Porsches. While I think the 986s is likely outclassed by the ND Miata in both CS and STR on the national stage, I think it's plenty competitive in both classes regionally. A 987.1S won BS last year and it can do it again this year. Said 987.1S would've been 6th/55 in AS, where an LSD and more power 987.2S is legal. Also, a big torque 718 with PTV is legal in AS, bet one of those would be highly competitive too. SS is a driver's class, I'd bet a well driven and well optioned 991.2 or 718 could hang in with the GT3 & GT4, turbo torque is a big equalizer with the long Porsche gearing.