May 2018 Fast track
06-01-2018, 10:08 AM
#16
I've mentioned this before, but I an weary of CAM. It's success is great, but it's a ticking time bomb.
The original STS class was for the Sport Compact Car Magazine folk - Sentras and Integras with eBay headers. At first it was great too, with all kinds of cars with simple bolt-ons just having fun too. Then someone read the rulebook and decided they wanted to win. The '89 Civic Si formula came out and that was the end of that. 20 years later and some class merges and we have a healthy CRX vs NA Miata STS, but it's real far from the initial intent of the class.
CAM-C was won last year on a GM parts bin car (Camaro SS1LE on ZL1 1LE suspension.) Unlike STS, there's virtually no rules in CAM. All it will take is one person that wants to win, instead of just being content showing up and having fun. Then it'll be a spending war of who can build the best tube frame silhouette car.
The original STS class was for the Sport Compact Car Magazine folk - Sentras and Integras with eBay headers. At first it was great too, with all kinds of cars with simple bolt-ons just having fun too. Then someone read the rulebook and decided they wanted to win. The '89 Civic Si formula came out and that was the end of that. 20 years later and some class merges and we have a healthy CRX vs NA Miata STS, but it's real far from the initial intent of the class.
CAM-C was won last year on a GM parts bin car (Camaro SS1LE on ZL1 1LE suspension.) Unlike STS, there's virtually no rules in CAM. All it will take is one person that wants to win, instead of just being content showing up and having fun. Then it'll be a spending war of who can build the best tube frame silhouette car.
06-01-2018, 10:54 AM
#17
Drifting
There's been some call for a class above STU, but it hasn't been met with much support. Cars exceeding STU performance typically already have pretty stiff suspensions and plenty of power. Come up with who this ST-amazeballs class would attract and why it would bring 30 cars to Lincoln and you'd have a shot.
As far as the notion of Porsches being "buried" I both agree and disagree.
Agree:
Some of that comes from the crazy Porsche option list - options like PASM, PTV, X51 powerkits, LSDs, PCCB, sunroof deletes, rear steer, XRR super wide wheels. There are plausible unicorn cars even though likely not a single Porsche is ever ordered as an SCCA special. Some comes from the fact that non-GTx Porsches historically don't show up even when classed well. I think 997s in general are boned, and all year turbos too, in Street at least.
Disagree:
That said, I think there's plenty of place to play in some Porsches. While I think the 986s is likely outclassed by the ND Miata in both CS and STR on the national stage, I think it's plenty competitive in both classes regionally. A 987.1S won BS last year and it can do it again this year. Said 987.1S would've been 6th/55 in AS, where an LSD and more power 987.2S is legal. Also, a big torque 718 with PTV is legal in AS, bet one of those would be highly competitive too. SS is a driver's class, I'd bet a well driven and well optioned 991.2 or 718 could hang in with the GT3 & GT4, turbo torque is a big equalizer with the long Porsche gearing.
As far as the notion of Porsches being "buried" I both agree and disagree.
Agree:
Some of that comes from the crazy Porsche option list - options like PASM, PTV, X51 powerkits, LSDs, PCCB, sunroof deletes, rear steer, XRR super wide wheels. There are plausible unicorn cars even though likely not a single Porsche is ever ordered as an SCCA special. Some comes from the fact that non-GTx Porsches historically don't show up even when classed well. I think 997s in general are boned, and all year turbos too, in Street at least.
Disagree:
That said, I think there's plenty of place to play in some Porsches. While I think the 986s is likely outclassed by the ND Miata in both CS and STR on the national stage, I think it's plenty competitive in both classes regionally. A 987.1S won BS last year and it can do it again this year. Said 987.1S would've been 6th/55 in AS, where an LSD and more power 987.2S is legal. Also, a big torque 718 with PTV is legal in AS, bet one of those would be highly competitive too. SS is a driver's class, I'd bet a well driven and well optioned 991.2 or 718 could hang in with the GT3 & GT4, turbo torque is a big equalizer with the long Porsche gearing.
987.2S does not have much (if any) power advantage over 987.1S and both cars share the same suspension, same tires, and are nearly identical in every other measurable way. Case in point: Lex K and I had a great opportunity at the DC pro two years ago to do a 1/8-mile uphill dragrace in ideal autocross conditions. We both had nearly identical 60' times and our cars got to the top in identical times, Lex maybe actually a tenth faster in his 987.1S. Base C5 was slightly faster still, by a few tenths. If 987.2S has more power, it's not enough to justify classing it differently. PDK gives that one quick shift, but adds weight over the rest of the (usually 2nd gear) course; launch control proved useless for prosolo because of the 1.5 mile thermal lockout. The LSD is not an issue for autocross, there's no problem putting down power without it. I wrote a lengthy letter to SEB about this, with video, but, alas, I was thanked for my input.
I had cone problems at 2017 nats so my official scores are mid-pack, but I managed a run on east course that would have put me 8/55 in AS or 3/55 in BS, right in-line with Justin Barbary and John Wolf who I run a with frequently at the NC and VA state championships and we're usually within a few tenths of each other (raw in AS at NCAC this year where I coned away top AS/3rd overall, but usually +/- a few tenths pax when they're in other cars). There were a few tenths out there for me East, but Ryan's run was just absolutely perfect.
The only real arguments I can think of NOT to move 987.2S to BS is that it would be seen as the-car-to-have but is more expensive and less plentiful than 987.1S because it came our right after the 2008 market crash. Which comes back to the Porsche thing: SCCA has tried favorably classing Porsches in the past, but aside from GT3, it's always hurt participation in that class. A lot of people are excited about 987.1S, though, and it's cheap and plentiful and the go-fast stuff can be retrofitted. We'll have to see where that goes.
06-01-2018, 11:00 AM
#18
Instructor
Thanks for the info and counter points. There's no simple answer to any of this and I do not envy the SCCA rule makers one bit. Seems like no matter what you do, someone is going to not be happy.
I guess I need to better understand the SCCA's long term goals. If it is focused on nationals and filling classes there amongst the subset of people who have the time and dedication to make it to Lincoln, then that's a different calculus vs trying to draw more people in at the local level. Same goes with balance of pure performance in a class vs finding a performance vs cost balance in a class. I suppose the total participation at my local scca autox is actually pretty high, even if it is skewed away from Prepared classes. So perhaps they're already doing it right already and my observations are based on too limited a local sample size. That said, IIRC the Prepared classes weren't drawing anywhere near 30 at Lincoln last year, maybe 15 at best. I haven't been watching long enough to know if those numbers are trending up or down.
As far as the Porsche classing goes, I do understand the need to protect against the potential unicorn spec car. You don't want someone to spend their way into a dominant car (unless it's in a prepared class I guess). It is nice to see the 987 classed a little more favorably, especially now that their prices are so reasonable compared to new. To the OP's point I guess it just gets frustrating seeing seas of Z06 in AS while there are (significantly depreciated used) cars that might have a chance against it up in SS... but CS is an ND class and I have no problem with that so I guess I've just revealed my own irrational bias ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I guess I need to better understand the SCCA's long term goals. If it is focused on nationals and filling classes there amongst the subset of people who have the time and dedication to make it to Lincoln, then that's a different calculus vs trying to draw more people in at the local level. Same goes with balance of pure performance in a class vs finding a performance vs cost balance in a class. I suppose the total participation at my local scca autox is actually pretty high, even if it is skewed away from Prepared classes. So perhaps they're already doing it right already and my observations are based on too limited a local sample size. That said, IIRC the Prepared classes weren't drawing anywhere near 30 at Lincoln last year, maybe 15 at best. I haven't been watching long enough to know if those numbers are trending up or down.
As far as the Porsche classing goes, I do understand the need to protect against the potential unicorn spec car. You don't want someone to spend their way into a dominant car (unless it's in a prepared class I guess). It is nice to see the 987 classed a little more favorably, especially now that their prices are so reasonable compared to new. To the OP's point I guess it just gets frustrating seeing seas of Z06 in AS while there are (significantly depreciated used) cars that might have a chance against it up in SS... but CS is an ND class and I have no problem with that so I guess I've just revealed my own irrational bias ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
06-01-2018, 08:17 PM
#19
Yeah, appealing to both local and national competitors is the tough balancing act the rules makers have to take into account. Logically, the classes should be written for the popular cars at locals, and that should lead to the popular cars at National events and then Nationals itself. But it doesn't always quite work that way. Going back to my STS example, how many people today are looking for a clean CRX so they can immediately put on a suspension so stiff that it's intolerable on the street?
Also note that trends can be both short lived and highly regional. The original STS target market was a pretty short fad, & SSR is huge in the midwest but fairly dead anywhere else.
Higher prep classes like SP, P, and Mod are a total PITA. Due to the more open rulesets, full-bore builds are both typically fairly expensive, and the cars end up so specialized for autocross that they can't be used for anything else, and are difficult to sell even at pennies on the dollar. As a result, a lot of those cars have been competing for 15+ years in the same darn class. It's pretty difficult to cut any of those classes for this reason, as you're likely to alienate lifers. A lot of those classes typically only run against another car in the same class once or twice a year. There USED to be a minimum attendance rule, in which if not enough cars showed up for a certain number of years, the class would be cut - notice how Prepared starts at CP now. That rule was stricken from the rulebook maybe 12 years ago, a mistake in my opinion.
As always, if you've got a group of people in your local region that all have similar cars with similar mods, lobby for your own regional class. We run a "TSM" class that's basically no rules except 200tw locally, basically the equivalent of CAM but for any car. We had a Triumph club that brought maybe six guys out a few times that just wanted to run together as their own class, and we did that too.
Also note that trends can be both short lived and highly regional. The original STS target market was a pretty short fad, & SSR is huge in the midwest but fairly dead anywhere else.
Higher prep classes like SP, P, and Mod are a total PITA. Due to the more open rulesets, full-bore builds are both typically fairly expensive, and the cars end up so specialized for autocross that they can't be used for anything else, and are difficult to sell even at pennies on the dollar. As a result, a lot of those cars have been competing for 15+ years in the same darn class. It's pretty difficult to cut any of those classes for this reason, as you're likely to alienate lifers. A lot of those classes typically only run against another car in the same class once or twice a year. There USED to be a minimum attendance rule, in which if not enough cars showed up for a certain number of years, the class would be cut - notice how Prepared starts at CP now. That rule was stricken from the rulebook maybe 12 years ago, a mistake in my opinion.
As always, if you've got a group of people in your local region that all have similar cars with similar mods, lobby for your own regional class. We run a "TSM" class that's basically no rules except 200tw locally, basically the equivalent of CAM but for any car. We had a Triumph club that brought maybe six guys out a few times that just wanted to run together as their own class, and we did that too.
06-01-2018, 09:56 PM
#20
Drifting
Pretty much every club in the nation runs some sort of 200TW class that's basically CAM-for-all, or SP & SM on ST because that's where demand is in the regions; it's frustrating that it's still not recognized nationally.
CAM is a fantastic class that ticks a lot of boxes and people love it, but I share your concern; SRS BZNS competitors are going to ruin it. It's not going to be long before CAM ends up effectively as XP on Street Tires. When the build levels get crazy and the crazy builds start winning, it will kill CAM at the national level because few will be willing to build competitive cars, and PAX will get stiff and ruin it at the regional level, too. Heck, it might even hurt it terribly at the regional level if Rick so much as fixes the super-soft PAX to be accurate for what he have today.
Bottom line is, sooner or later, CAM is going to need to get rules to limit the insanity. What we really need, IMHO, is a CAM-like prep category that is designed for street driven cars of all types (imports, too), has tolerances for just about everything novices show up with, but with limitations that cap national-level prep to roughly present CAM levels (somewhere between SP & SM, but on 200TW). I think the SP & SM guys are afraid this sort of class will steal their lunch, though.
I've mentioned this before, but I an weary of CAM. It's success is great, but it's a ticking time bomb.
The original STS class was for the Sport Compact Car Magazine folk - Sentras and Integras with eBay headers. At first it was great too, with all kinds of cars with simple bolt-ons just having fun too. Then someone read the rulebook and decided they wanted to win. The '89 Civic Si formula came out and that was the end of that. 20 years later and some class merges and we have a healthy CRX vs NA Miata STS, but it's real far from the initial intent of the class.
CAM-C was won last year on a GM parts bin car (Camaro SS1LE on ZL1 1LE suspension.) Unlike STS, there's virtually no rules in CAM. All it will take is one person that wants to win, instead of just being content showing up and having fun. Then it'll be a spending war of who can build the best tube frame silhouette car.
The original STS class was for the Sport Compact Car Magazine folk - Sentras and Integras with eBay headers. At first it was great too, with all kinds of cars with simple bolt-ons just having fun too. Then someone read the rulebook and decided they wanted to win. The '89 Civic Si formula came out and that was the end of that. 20 years later and some class merges and we have a healthy CRX vs NA Miata STS, but it's real far from the initial intent of the class.
CAM-C was won last year on a GM parts bin car (Camaro SS1LE on ZL1 1LE suspension.) Unlike STS, there's virtually no rules in CAM. All it will take is one person that wants to win, instead of just being content showing up and having fun. Then it'll be a spending war of who can build the best tube frame silhouette car.
Bottom line is, sooner or later, CAM is going to need to get rules to limit the insanity. What we really need, IMHO, is a CAM-like prep category that is designed for street driven cars of all types (imports, too), has tolerances for just about everything novices show up with, but with limitations that cap national-level prep to roughly present CAM levels (somewhere between SP & SM, but on 200TW). I think the SP & SM guys are afraid this sort of class will steal their lunch, though.
06-04-2018, 04:42 PM
#21
I think moving the 987.2 to BS would be a very aggressive move an is unlikely to happen. BS is already a great class for the time being and best case scenario the 987.2 isn't a total top dog, it just ups the cost of running a Cayman by 30% or more cause FOR SURE its a faster car than the 987.1.
PDK is definitely an advantage...not just for the 1/2 shift but anytime you could have instantly gone to third instead of bouncing the limiter. LSD also advantage...every aggressively driven Cayman in BS that still wants to turn will experience inside wheel spin. Then of course the added power. I honestly considered a 987.2 for AS for this season and don't think it would take any real unusual course for them to be competitive. Maybe not the best car for the class sure but do you really expect them to threaten the Corvette street tire class?
Without my cone on the corn course it could have been just 0.25 difference to AS. Without Frank's cone as well still under half a second over two days. And to be honest, that's just with me driving, with a better driver who knows what's possible. I haven't looked deeply into the 718 but I suspect it could be an even better choice for AS although way more expensive.
I think its already a great time for Porsche enthusiasts in SCCA Solo. Lots of choices for cars that are competitive at many levels and seem to be way more P cars coming out then ever before. The more owners show the SCCA that they support the program the more aggressively the cars will be classed.
PDK is definitely an advantage...not just for the 1/2 shift but anytime you could have instantly gone to third instead of bouncing the limiter. LSD also advantage...every aggressively driven Cayman in BS that still wants to turn will experience inside wheel spin. Then of course the added power. I honestly considered a 987.2 for AS for this season and don't think it would take any real unusual course for them to be competitive. Maybe not the best car for the class sure but do you really expect them to threaten the Corvette street tire class?
Without my cone on the corn course it could have been just 0.25 difference to AS. Without Frank's cone as well still under half a second over two days. And to be honest, that's just with me driving, with a better driver who knows what's possible. I haven't looked deeply into the 718 but I suspect it could be an even better choice for AS although way more expensive.
I think its already a great time for Porsche enthusiasts in SCCA Solo. Lots of choices for cars that are competitive at many levels and seem to be way more P cars coming out then ever before. The more owners show the SCCA that they support the program the more aggressively the cars will be classed.
06-04-2018, 10:17 PM
#22
Drifting
I think moving the 987.2 to BS would be a very aggressive move an is unlikely to happen. BS is already a great class for the time being and best case scenario the 987.2 isn't a total top dog, it just ups the cost of running a Cayman by 30% or more cause FOR SURE its a faster car than the 987.1.
PDK is definitely an advantage...not just for the 1/2 shift but anytime you could have instantly gone to third instead of bouncing the limiter. LSD also advantage...every aggressively driven Cayman in BS that still wants to turn will experience inside wheel spin. Then of course the added power. I honestly considered a 987.2 for AS for this season and don't think it would take any real unusual course for them to be competitive. Maybe not the best car for the class sure but do you really expect them to threaten the Corvette street tire class?
Without my cone on the corn course it could have been just 0.25 difference to AS. Without Frank's cone as well still under half a second over two days. And to be honest, that's just with me driving, with a better driver who knows what's possible. I haven't looked deeply into the 718 but I suspect it could be an even better choice for AS although way more expensive.
I think its already a great time for Porsche enthusiasts in SCCA Solo. Lots of choices for cars that are competitive at many levels and seem to be way more P cars coming out then ever before. The more owners show the SCCA that they support the program the more aggressively the cars will be classed.
PDK is definitely an advantage...not just for the 1/2 shift but anytime you could have instantly gone to third instead of bouncing the limiter. LSD also advantage...every aggressively driven Cayman in BS that still wants to turn will experience inside wheel spin. Then of course the added power. I honestly considered a 987.2 for AS for this season and don't think it would take any real unusual course for them to be competitive. Maybe not the best car for the class sure but do you really expect them to threaten the Corvette street tire class?
Without my cone on the corn course it could have been just 0.25 difference to AS. Without Frank's cone as well still under half a second over two days. And to be honest, that's just with me driving, with a better driver who knows what's possible. I haven't looked deeply into the 718 but I suspect it could be an even better choice for AS although way more expensive.
I think its already a great time for Porsche enthusiasts in SCCA Solo. Lots of choices for cars that are competitive at many levels and seem to be way more P cars coming out then ever before. The more owners show the SCCA that they support the program the more aggressively the cars will be classed.
I don't think that was a 0.1 second cone... Regardless, was a great run! It would be nice if we see more Porsches in BS & AS at nationals this year. I really want to see some aliens driving Caymans so we can see how they really compare to the Z06s. Speaking of nationals, what are you driving this year?I still think 987.2S is outclassed in AS. If there's a speed advantage vs 987.1S, it's in the weeds. Now, when 981S drops to AS next year, that's a faster car, and might be a better match for the Z06s. They sold well, and should be plentiful used in a few years.
06-04-2018, 10:34 PM
#23
I agree with you but that’s unlikely to change. I don’t know much about 981 either but if it’s significantly faster it’s probably a bad idea to put into AS as well.