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997.2 Turbo manual future values

 
Old 10-13-2016, 01:10 AM
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bigmacsmallfries
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Default 997.2 Turbo manual future values

Hey,

I didn't realize there's a 997 Turbo specific forum on reenlist. Double post on the 997 forum.

Just wanted to chime in see what everything thinks. With just about every variation of the Turbo skyrocketing in value minus the 996 and 997, it seems likely that the next variant to go northbound is going to the be the 997.2 Turbo manual since it's the last manual Turbo.

Doing research on this site approximately 684-760 or so worldwide (Total 911 Vol 73). Considering the relative rarity of these (only 600 RS4.0 and 500 GT2 RS), do you guys think it's going to be the next Porsche to go up drastically in value?

I located some stats that suggested there's ~8500 997.1 Turbos worldwide with a manual so I think the 997.2's rarity has been overlooked. They are really high up there in terms of low production numbers.

EDIT: As of this writing there's only 5 for sale in the US, and 3 in Canada. They seem to be going for 5-10k more than the DCT units which is pretty insignificant.

Future collectible? I feel that these may go up in value quite a bit once word gets out as to how few of them there are.

Last edited by bigmacsmallfries; 01-08-2017 at 10:33 PM.
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Old 10-13-2016, 01:49 AM
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DFI motor is less desirable than mezger. I strongly think that the 997.1 tt 6spd will surpass 997.2 tt 6spd in value.
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Old 10-13-2016, 02:07 AM
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Originally Posted by guab View Post
DFI motor is less desirable than mezger. I strongly think that the 997.1 tt 6spd will surpass 997.2 tt 6spd in value.
I can't say I would agree with you. The .2 engine is better in every way. More power, less turbo lag, and no loss in soul/character. Only improvements in the eyes of enthusiasts.

However, in the 997 GT3, the Mezger motor will be regarded as an iconic engine because of the LeMans racecar sound and reliability vs the 991 GT3 engine issues and lack of a manual. Naturally aspirated engines are a different story entirely.

Lastly, comparing ~4500 997.1 in the US vs ~400 997.2 is apples and oranges. That's 11x the number of cars.

I'd like to hear more as to why you think the 997.1 would be worth more, and explain what you feel has been lost in the 997.2. Anything other than the 'mezger' block? If anyone else here believes the 997.1 would be worth more, please chime in. Would be interesting to get a good debate going. I'd like to hear some reasoning.

Thanks!
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Old 10-13-2016, 02:14 AM
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It's a subjective argument I suppose. There's absolutely too few data points I believe on the manual 997.2 TT vs the 997.1 TT to compare -- but if you compare overall 997.1 Turbo to 997.2 Turbo (including all transmission options), for now anyway, the 997.1 Turbo's sell faster because of price IMO.

I'm not a die hard P car enthusiast (just a car guy in general), but my 997.2 TTS was still quiet even with a full race exhaust without any cats. The 997.1 TT absolutely screams. I think that sums up why I would buy a 997.1 TT over a 997.2 TT, if both were 6 speed. There is literally nothing else that the 997.2 offers in value (to me!) over the 997.1. For a weekend driver, the engine note and feeling is the most important. Then again, I'm the kind of guy to solid mount everything in a car, so perhaps there's some merit to people saying the 997.2 offers a much improved suspension over the 997.1 Personally I feel that the 997.1 and 997.2 are about equal there, and that both could use serious improvement from what's offered from the factory for a weekend driver. Thus, they're both equal in my eyes.

I agree with you re: GT3, btw. Then again, I don't really see any of the non-GT cars appreciating anyway. I think they'll continue to depreciate a lot less quickly assuming mileage is held constant as the years pass -- but I just think the demand will be higher for 997.1 due to engine, but not because of heritage.

I think it's fair to end it saying that regardless of what we buy, I think both cars with a 6 speed will do OK in value. I just wouldn't anticipate it to appreciate from where you bought it, is all.

Last edited by guab; 10-13-2016 at 02:48 AM.
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Old 10-13-2016, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by bigmacsmallfries
I can't say I would agree with you. The .2 engine is better in every way. More power, less turbo lag, and no loss in soul/character. Only improvements in the eyes of enthusiasts.

However, in the 997 GT3, the Mezger motor will be regarded as an iconic engine because of the LeMans racecar sound and reliability vs the 991 GT3 engine issues and lack of a manual. Naturally aspirated engines are a different story entirely.

Lastly, comparing ~4500 997.1 in the US vs ~400 997.2 is apples and oranges. That's 11x the number of cars.

I'd like to hear more as to why you think the 997.1 would be worth more, and explain what you feel has been lost in the 997.2. Anything other than the 'mezger' block? If anyone else here believes the 997.1 would be worth more, please chime in. Would be interesting to get a good debate going. I'd like to hear some reasoning.

Thanks!
Mezger block has stand the test of time. The tuning crowd has done and is doing more with this block than the 9A1 block.

Just look at the comparison between the Mezger and 9A1 GT3 prices plus user experiences so far. 9A1 block is still experiencing teething problems with engine replacements and newer model years' redline dialed down. It may eventually get there but probably not with the current generation design.

Low production numbers help valuation of these cars but it is not a driving factor.
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Old 10-13-2016, 12:25 PM
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Hard to tell but there are signs in the Euro market the 997/1 mezger will become the one to have.

I bought my turbo new in 2007 and sold it early 2009.
By the time I realized I made a huge mistake the mezger turbo was out of production. I contemplated buying a new DFI turbo and came close.
But in the end I just couldn't. The lure of the mezger engine and its heritage was too strong. Also the value just wasn't there to me. Cheap(er) engine and even cheaper gearbox made it a deal breaker.

So I searched for the next best thing to a new one. A low mile perfect specimen. I found it in 2012 and never looked back.

In Germany the 997/1 low milers are approaching the Ç100k mark fast.
In less than a year I suspect it will be broken. And those asking prices are not from 'dreamers'. Porsche dealers, high end car dealers who specialize in Porsche are confident the prices are 'correct'.

Maybe the DFI manual will be sought after, I believe it will but it will be very very hard to trump a mezger 997 turbo.
In time both will be old cars and only one will have a racing derived engine. And things like that count in the collectors market.

Some argue the DFI is a 'better' car. Forget that. Collector cars are not bought because they are better than the previous model.

If you really want a 'sure bet' I would go for the 2009. That will be the one to put away.
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Old 10-13-2016, 12:36 PM
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Worldwide production for 997.1 6MT coupes is ~5500 and the 993TT is ~6000.

For or me the Mezger engine was a must when shopping for for my 997TT. Tried both the 997.1 & 997.2 and there was something about the character of the Mezger I liked much better. I also like its race history...

The only thing I found better on the 997.2 was the suspension/handling and the LED lights if that's your thing but for some reason I prefer the "older style" lights.

Something I've noticed with the Porsche crowd in my area is that most who had bought a 997.2TT have already moved on to the 991.1TT and some are already trading for a 991.2. Most with a Mezger Turbo (one being a 996) will not sell...again, just my observation.

At the end of the day nobody has a crystal ball for future values and we should all be thankful we are in a position to have such a first world problem.
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Old 10-13-2016, 01:35 PM
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Originally Posted by TT-911 View Post
If you really want a 'sure bet' I would go for the 2009. That will be the one to put away.


This is what I was thinking as well. The 2009 also has PCM 3.0 which is a much improved setup.
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Old 10-13-2016, 02:19 PM
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Every day I think it's time to sell my 09 cab 6MT with 24k miles and get a newer 997.2TTS. Then I take it for a quick spin on the weekend and it absolutely changes my mind!
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Old 10-13-2016, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by cakM3 View Post
The 2009 also has PCM 3.0 which is a much improved setup.
True, but old nevertheless. In 10 years time condition of any mezger 997 turbo will trump PCM3 by a wide margin.
But the '09, besides having the improved unit, is also the very last model year of the mezger turbo and combine that with top condition and you'll have a winner.
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Old 10-13-2016, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by 4ocious View Post
Every day I think it's time to sell my 09 cab 6MT with 24k miles and get a newer 997.2TTS. Then I take it for a quick spin on the weekend and it absolutely changes my mind!
Same here. I've been thinking about picking up a 991 lately because there are good deals on leftover 2016s, and this is the time of the year to buy a cabriolet. Then I took my 997.1 TT out for a drive yesterday, and I thought: What would a new 991 give me that this doesn't? Not much!

I personally don't think the 2009 will be any more special than the 2007 or the 2008. The PCM unit is out of date on the 2009 cars too, just not quite as out of date os the '07 and '08 cars. Aside from that, the only differences are optional ventilated seats and center lock wheels. People who buy them won't consider the stereo or nav system to be important criteria on their list of "must have" things, in my opinion. People who place a high value on those things will either buy a newer car or replace the electronics.

It's also important to note that the 997.1 turbo 6MT was produced in lower numbers than the Tiptronic. The 997.1 6MT is still a fairly rare car, although not as rare as the 997.2 6MT.

I think that all variants of the 997 turbo will eventually rise in value, especially the 6MT cars. I don't think that the .1 or the .2 will end up being more desirable or holding more of a premium. In any case, I still think we have many years to go before we see any significant appreciation.
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Old 10-13-2016, 03:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Dennis C View Post
In any case, I still think we have many years to go before we see any significant appreciation.
In Europe, similar car , similar mileage, similar options.
2012 : 65.000 euro
2016 : 85.000 euro

Not GT3 like but still not too bad.
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Old 10-13-2016, 04:26 PM
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Not bad at all. It's not like that in the US yet.
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Old 10-13-2016, 04:43 PM
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I know, same happened with 964 and 993 turbo, when EU cars were getting expensive the US cars were still relatively cheap and were massively imported as a consequence.

Now US values are more or less the same for those older Porsche's.

I suspect the 997 turbo will follow and I also believe we only just started the upward trend here in Europe. I have no idea how many years it will take but it is my believe the mezger 997 turbo will rival the 993 turbo for desirability and collectability.
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Old 10-13-2016, 05:02 PM
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Especially 997.1 cars with a 6MT in Macadamia Brown Metallic....

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