997.2 Turbo manual future values
10-16-2016, 12:20 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
I didn't notice much of a difference between the .1 and .2 clutch feel...I think they are both too light. I prefer the pedal feel in the RS. As for lag, I agree some but get a proper tune and the lag is almost gone and I still have the Mezger engine.
10-16-2016, 01:06 PM
#32
Rocky Mountain High
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10-16-2016, 11:15 PM
#34
I think 997.2 is the one to have, especially so in stock form:
- better engine. Mezger might have the heritage and is built to withstand 10x the abuse, but in stock form, I don't see why you would pick a less efficient, less powerful, laggier version. Anecdotally, from what I've seen around the forums, there seem to be more engine issues with Mezgers than DFIs
- Last of a kind. 997.2 is the last turbo with MT.
- Much, much rarer. Probably mostly due to the US financial ****ups, 997.2s are just much rarer than the .1s
- better suspension setup. No need for aftermarket. 997.1s are sloppier and most people I know of wouldn't touch the car unless it has Bilsteins on.
- Updated electronics & interior. Yes, the 09 has them too, but you don't get the rest of the package
Now, i may be biased a bit...
- better engine. Mezger might have the heritage and is built to withstand 10x the abuse, but in stock form, I don't see why you would pick a less efficient, less powerful, laggier version. Anecdotally, from what I've seen around the forums, there seem to be more engine issues with Mezgers than DFIs
- Last of a kind. 997.2 is the last turbo with MT.
- Much, much rarer. Probably mostly due to the US financial ****ups, 997.2s are just much rarer than the .1s
- better suspension setup. No need for aftermarket. 997.1s are sloppier and most people I know of wouldn't touch the car unless it has Bilsteins on.
- Updated electronics & interior. Yes, the 09 has them too, but you don't get the rest of the package
Now, i may be biased a bit...
I also believe the prices will increase on the .1 TT.
No other reason than the history of the engine and it's bullet proof reliability.
I thrashed my 993TT a lot and it just took everything I threw at it, until it bit back one day and put me into a wall. Funny feeling becoming just a passenger when they decide to go!
So this amazing 997.1 gives me the security of knowing that if it doe's give, it'll be because I deserved it.
At the end of the day like someone else said, what a first world problem to have huh.
No other reason than the history of the engine and it's bullet proof reliability.
I thrashed my 993TT a lot and it just took everything I threw at it, until it bit back one day and put me into a wall. Funny feeling becoming just a passenger when they decide to go!
So this amazing 997.1 gives me the security of knowing that if it doe's give, it'll be because I deserved it.
At the end of the day like someone else said, what a first world problem to have huh.
That goes to any 911, you dont loose too much money on it.
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cyclrder (12-04-2019)
10-17-2016, 04:17 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by bigmacsmallfries
Hmmm... Traditionally the cars that have gone up most in valuation historically are Ferraris, Maseratis, and rare Mercedes (prior to the 70s), and to a certain extent, Bentleys. All these cars were very unreliable. I don't think reliability has anything to do with valuation of cars. It's fun factor, historical significance, driving enjoyment/pleasure/fun factor, and design mostly. Not to mention the racing pedigree. And I doubt how 'tunable' a car is has to do with valuation. Investors (usually 40s and up), are completely uninterested in tuning cars --it is preferred cars stay completely OEM to maximize value.
Quite the contrary, the production numbers is the most important factor in predicting price appreciation.
EDIT: Memory did not serve me well on this example. :/
Quite the contrary, the production numbers is the most important factor in predicting price appreciation.
EDIT: Memory did not serve me well on this example. :/
997.1 engine is a water cooled derivative of the 993GT2 engine with racing history. Not sure where the 997.2's 9A1 block is raced anywhere with success.
Manual 997.2 TT was never produced in large qty because Porsche is pushing PDK tech. They were successful in:
1. Bring in new customers who cannot drive a manual and are not interested in traditional automatic gearbox but are dual clutch buyers.
2. Convincing current customer who are on the fence about getting a manual that a PDK (new tech lure) that this is faster and better than manual.
Reliability is an indication of how well made and longevity of a car providing a potential buyer sense of additional value. Current 9A1 engines do not have any significant racing pedigree today. They are known for engine fires and replacements.
10-17-2016, 11:18 PM
#37
The yard stick has moved when comparing these generations of cars. Your yard stick of comparing pre 70s cars don't apply here. Reliability is very much in the mix of criteria for shoppers buying cars this era because they no longer made cars with hand made body panels homologating race cars. Production numbers correlates to value when it is much lower plus they were actually race cars built for street registration and use. In short, their significance are valued as race cars you can drive on the street.
997.1 engine is a water cooled derivative of the 993GT2 engine with racing history. Not sure where the 997.2's 9A1 block is raced anywhere with success.
Manual 997.2 TT was never produced in large qty because Porsche is pushing PDK tech. They were successful in:
1. Bring in new customers who cannot drive a manual and are not interested in traditional automatic gearbox but are dual clutch buyers.
2. Convincing current customer who are on the fence about getting a manual that a PDK (new tech lure) that this is faster and better than manual.
Reliability is an indication of how well made and longevity of a car providing a potential buyer sense of additional value. Current 9A1 engines do not have any significant racing pedigree today. They are known for engine fires and replacements.
997.1 engine is a water cooled derivative of the 993GT2 engine with racing history. Not sure where the 997.2's 9A1 block is raced anywhere with success.
Manual 997.2 TT was never produced in large qty because Porsche is pushing PDK tech. They were successful in:
1. Bring in new customers who cannot drive a manual and are not interested in traditional automatic gearbox but are dual clutch buyers.
2. Convincing current customer who are on the fence about getting a manual that a PDK (new tech lure) that this is faster and better than manual.
Reliability is an indication of how well made and longevity of a car providing a potential buyer sense of additional value. Current 9A1 engines do not have any significant racing pedigree today. They are known for engine fires and replacements.
Thats why we need to put everything in perspective. The 997.2 is a good car, I owned one before. But it does not have the racing pedigree of the 997.1. The .1 is slower than a .2 yes, but still fast enough compared to 90% out there. It has enough torque to make other cars seem too slow for the times.
10-18-2016, 12:00 AM
#38
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Hmmm.... Decided to delete my initial comment before someone replies...
This thread is about the 997.2 Turbo manual transmission and predicting whether or not it will be the next hot 911 in the market. Can we all just agree both generations are great and move on? There's dozens of threads with this back and forth bickering and another one simply isn't needed, everything in this thread has already been stated previously. I'm standing on the sidelines over this .1 vs .2 nonsense. I find it's a topic that's already been beaten to death.
Back on topic...
I found that Total911 listed that a total of 3800 997.2s base Turbos were made. Now I seriously doubt 21% of the models sold were equipped with a manual which would translate to 800 manuals worldwide. They seem less rare that that. Does anyone have any additional resources?
This thread is about the 997.2 Turbo manual transmission and predicting whether or not it will be the next hot 911 in the market. Can we all just agree both generations are great and move on? There's dozens of threads with this back and forth bickering and another one simply isn't needed, everything in this thread has already been stated previously. I'm standing on the sidelines over this .1 vs .2 nonsense. I find it's a topic that's already been beaten to death.
Back on topic...
I found that Total911 listed that a total of 3800 997.2s base Turbos were made. Now I seriously doubt 21% of the models sold were equipped with a manual which would translate to 800 manuals worldwide. They seem less rare that that. Does anyone have any additional resources?
Last edited by bigmacsmallfries; 10-18-2016 at 12:25 AM.
10-18-2016, 02:10 AM
#39
Rocky Mountain High
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I think that rarity drives values sometimes, but it's no guarantee. If you look at the production numbers of the 997.2 turbo MT and then compare them to the production numbers of some limited edition cars like the GT2 or GT3 RS, then you might conclude that the 997.2 turbo MT will follow the same appreciation curve. I think that argument overlooks the key fact that it's not just low production numbers that drive value. GT2 and GT3 RS cars appreciate because of the nature of the car in addition to low numbers. There's just nothing out there that compares with a GT2 or a GT3 RS. If you can't buy a 997.2 turbo MT, then you can buy a 997.1 turbo MT and get a similar vehicle. Or you can buy a PDK car and get a similar experience. There's not a close runner up to a GT2. As another example, there are probably less than fifteen 997.1 turbo cabriolets in the country with a MT in Macadamia Brown Metallic. It's quite a rare car. Does that increase the value? Not really. You can get something very similar in another color.
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cyclrder (12-04-2019)
10-20-2016, 01:21 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I think that rarity drives values sometimes, but it's no guarantee. If you look at the production numbers of the 997.2 turbo MT and then compare them to the production numbers of some limited edition cars like the GT2 or GT3 RS, then you might conclude that the 997.2 turbo MT will follow the same appreciation curve. I think that argument overlooks the key fact that it's not just low production numbers that drive value. GT2 and GT3 RS cars appreciate because of the nature of the car in addition to low numbers. There's just nothing out there that compares with a GT2 or a GT3 RS. If you can't buy a 997.2 turbo MT, then you can buy a 997.1 turbo MT and get a similar vehicle. Or you can buy a PDK car and get a similar experience. There's not a close runner up to a GT2. As another example, there are probably less than fifteen 997.1 turbo cabriolets in the country with a MT in Macadamia Brown Metallic. It's quite a rare car. Does that increase the value? Not really. You can get something very similar in another color.
So how would you resond to the F430 manuals being almost twice the value of a SMG F430?
What about the RS4.0 being twice the value of the standard GT3 RS and only having 50hp more, different stickers, and a slightly revised suspension?
The above two are slightly modified cars whereas the 997.2 has an entirely new engine, transmission, and highly revised overall suspension with the addition of torque vectoring and dynamic engine mounts. Mechanically, the cars are quite different. Superficially they are almost the same. Having driven both, I can comfortably say the cars are very different and it would be hard for me to recommend a .1 unless it's due to financial reasons over a .2. The margin between the two is relatively small cost wise.
I agree with your general overall sentiment, but I still do believe if any Turbo that hasn't appreciated yet will, it's the 997.2 manual Turbo that's next. Why at this time? Well an overwhelming majority of the 997.2 Turbos were all sold/leased out by the end of 2012 when production ceased. Now given that 3 or 4 year leases are the norm, the 'latest and greatest' crowd has now sold/traded-in their cars to those that probably have a deeper connection with the car and intend to hold for longer.
My intention is to call the bottom on the 997.2 manual values. Starting in the Spring, and onwards I only see these to trend upwards. I am sticking with my guns on this one and just wanted to be the first to state this.
10-20-2016, 01:33 PM
#41
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Now, regarding the Mezger vs 9A1 debate, just wanted to point out one last thing before everyone else chimes in and then standing back from all this. lol
Mezger has the racing pedigree, the reliability, the prestige etc, and even had an output of 620hp in the GT2 RS making it king of the hill still. That statement holds true in 2016, today.
Now, let me give you an outlook into the future....
GT3R was revealed in 2015 with a 9A1 motor
GT3 Cup was revealed in 2016 with a 9A1 motor.
GT3 RSR is going turbo and will be revealed with a turbo... with you guessed it... a 9A1 motor!
2018 GT2 RS will be unveiled in 2017/18, and once again, with the 9A1 motor! And it will have 650-700hp according to reports surpassed the Mezger once again.
The 997.1 owners here keep stating that the Mezger block is the one to have. I'm not sure these forum posters have any foresight because the 9A1 is basically the Mezger II block. It will receive the same status and prestige and racing heritage as the Mezger with time making this whole debate a moot point.
5 years from now people are not going to care to purchase a Mezger over a 9A1. Not sure everyone understands this is the beginning of the motorsport lifespan of the 9A1. The 2014 GT3 fiasco was solved and will be forgotten, unaffecting values years from now.
Anyone care to debate this inevitable future? I think this merits a different thread altogether for everyone to chime in.
Mezger has the racing pedigree, the reliability, the prestige etc, and even had an output of 620hp in the GT2 RS making it king of the hill still. That statement holds true in 2016, today.
Now, let me give you an outlook into the future....
GT3R was revealed in 2015 with a 9A1 motor
GT3 Cup was revealed in 2016 with a 9A1 motor.
GT3 RSR is going turbo and will be revealed with a turbo... with you guessed it... a 9A1 motor!
2018 GT2 RS will be unveiled in 2017/18, and once again, with the 9A1 motor! And it will have 650-700hp according to reports surpassed the Mezger once again.
The 997.1 owners here keep stating that the Mezger block is the one to have. I'm not sure these forum posters have any foresight because the 9A1 is basically the Mezger II block. It will receive the same status and prestige and racing heritage as the Mezger with time making this whole debate a moot point.
5 years from now people are not going to care to purchase a Mezger over a 9A1. Not sure everyone understands this is the beginning of the motorsport lifespan of the 9A1. The 2014 GT3 fiasco was solved and will be forgotten, unaffecting values years from now.
Anyone care to debate this inevitable future? I think this merits a different thread altogether for everyone to chime in.
Last edited by bigmacsmallfries; 10-20-2016 at 01:48 PM.
10-20-2016, 03:11 PM
#42
Rocky Mountain High
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Good comments and questions. I can see your perspective. My point was that the turbo isn't a specialty car like the GT cars. It's a wonderful car, and the production numbers are limited, but it's in a different category. Low production numbers are only part of what make a car appreciate.
The 997.1 turbo vs. 997.2 turbo debate is less important than the overall 997 turbo value debate. I think these cars will find their place in the market, and they will appreciate. I think the cars with a manual transmission will become valuable because they are the last of their kind. Ultimately, I don't think the 997.1 will be worth more than the 997.2, and vica versa. I think that discussing that possibility is nitpicking and we won't know until 30 years from now. The Ferrari example above is a manual vs. automatic discussion. I agree that manuals will probably be worth more, but I don't think .1 or .2 cars will have much of a difference in terms of value.
This is one man's opinion. It won't really matter much for me, because I'm quite certain that I will own another car by the time we know....
The 997.1 turbo vs. 997.2 turbo debate is less important than the overall 997 turbo value debate. I think these cars will find their place in the market, and they will appreciate. I think the cars with a manual transmission will become valuable because they are the last of their kind. Ultimately, I don't think the 997.1 will be worth more than the 997.2, and vica versa. I think that discussing that possibility is nitpicking and we won't know until 30 years from now. The Ferrari example above is a manual vs. automatic discussion. I agree that manuals will probably be worth more, but I don't think .1 or .2 cars will have much of a difference in terms of value.
This is one man's opinion. It won't really matter much for me, because I'm quite certain that I will own another car by the time we know....
Last edited by Dennis C; 10-20-2016 at 08:15 PM.
10-20-2016, 07:52 PM
#43
Three Wheelin'
I don't think the values of the .1 & .2 are going vary much in future. Maybe the .2 will carry a small premium due to the limited production numbers compared to .1. It's all going to come down to originality, maintenance history, options, mileage and color combo for the collectors.
10-22-2016, 08:13 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
So I've found a good source for a reliable number of manuals produced. Total 911 Issue 73 (2012) states that 20% of production for the 911 Turbo were manuals. That means 760 out of 3800 were manual at most. Now the issue was released prior to production ending, and as the years went on less and less cars were ordered with manuals as DCT acceptance was growing. Considering this, we can maybe choose an arbitrary number of 18-20%. So 684-760 manuals exist. Very rare. In addition, this is the one and only time that the 9A1 is paired with a manual transmission giving it not only "last manual" status, but also the only manual. lol
10-22-2016, 08:23 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
I don't think the values of the .1 & .2 are going vary much in future. Maybe the .2 will carry a small premium due to the limited production numbers compared to .1. It's all going to come down to originality, maintenance history, options, mileage and color combo for the collectors.
Within the next two years:
997.2 Turbo S
997.2 Turbo manual
997.2 Turbo PDK
997.1 Turbo manual
997.2 Turbo automatic
2-10 years from now:
997.2 Turbo manual
997.2 Turbo S
997.2 Turbo PDK
997.1 Turbo manual
997.2 Turbo automatic
10 years plus:
997.2 Turbo manual
997.1 Turbo manual
997.2 Turbo S
997.2 Turbo PDK
997.1 Turbo automatic
As you can gather, I generally think we're underestimating how much value manuals will bring to these cars in the future. I think it will be a very hot commodity.
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cyclrder (12-01-2019)