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TPC's DSC box and new Active suspention

 
Old 08-28-2015, 12:46 PM
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Duckstu
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Default TPC's DSC box and new Active suspention

So I've been following this thread over in the GT3/2 forum about the DSC box from TPC Racing,... and dampers they're having made by TracTive. It sounds like it's going to be the holy grail.
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...n-forum-3.html

I only just bought my car,.. and a tune,.. and new tires,.. and paid sales tax,..etc,.. so I'm not in the position to swing the entire setup just now. But,.. I was able to swing the DSC box for the stock suspension,.. and so far,... WOW.
http://www.tpcracing.com/dsc.html

The idea is,.. that with the stock PASM setup,.. the shocks have a range of say..... 1-10. With PASM off,.. they are all set to 3 , and with it switched on,.. they're all set to 8.

This DSC box supposedly uses the entire range ,... and each shock is being adjusted separately, in real time. It might be at a 1 or a 2 just driving down the road,.. but hit the brakes and the front might go to 7. Crank it into a right-hand turn,. and the left side might go to 9,. and the right side to 3 (or whatever).

Unfortunately the response time of the stock shocks is a slow-ish 100ms,... so there's a limit to what the box can do with them. The TracTive dampers they have coming out with have a range that's twice as wide (like from -5 to +15),.. and they have a response time of 6 ms, which is 17 x faster than stock.

From my reading,.. it "sounds" like the DSC box by itself will get you perhaps 40% - 50% of the improvement,. and do that for just 17% of the money, so I thought I'd give it a shot.

I've only put a few miles on it so far,... and haven't had a chance to dive-bomb any corners,.. BUT,.. when going around a corner with ripples in it,.. the inside rear wheel no longer jiggles like the shock is blown out,... and the ride is even more comfortable,.. yet it isn't at all "floaty".

Even in position 2 (of the three),.. it still rides more comfortably than stock with PASM off, and there's no noticeable dive under braking,.. or lean in cornering.

Also,... it no longer changes settings when you press the Sport button,.. which is nice. I can see myself leaving this in setting 2 forever (except position 3 if I ever do a track day). Before if I activated Sport,.. I would then have to turn off the PASM,.. and if I found a smooth road,.. re-activate it. Now there's no reason to ever touch anything. Press Sport if you want to,.. and this stays in the setting you like best. I'm thrilled.


Installation took about 5 minutes. Remove 2-3 of the screw-in clips holding the upper kick-panel above the passenger foot-well,... peel back the carpet on the right side,.. and un-snap the stock unit (black). Plug in the new one and snap back into it's mount. Push the carpet back and press-in the plastic fasteners you removed earlier.

What's nice is there's no alteration of the car, and the car can be returned to stock in the same 5 min.


Last edited by Duckstu; 08-29-2015 at 08:40 PM.
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Old 08-28-2015, 01:20 PM
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Old 08-28-2015, 01:37 PM
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Here's a pic of the struts & shocks that they had done by TracTive. I have friends in suspension, brakes and chassis here in Detroit,.. and they have loads of respect for TracTive. Not sure if it's on the level of Penske or Moton,.. but sounds awfully close.

Definitely in another league from stuff like Koni, Bilstein, etc.

The active dampers end up using softer than stock springs,.. and make up the difference with the dampening. So on a flat, rough road,.. they ride even softer than stock setup, while producing grip and control that should outpace pretty much anything currently available.



Last edited by Duckstu; 08-29-2015 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 08-28-2015, 04:32 PM
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I'm getting that box
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Old 08-28-2015, 04:48 PM
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TT Surgeon
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Interested in a box myself, what do they run, I can't find a price on their site?
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Old 08-28-2015, 05:00 PM
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i bought DSC early on- in Dec 2013 for my 07 997.1TT- talked to TPC earlier this yr & learned my unit had earlier software- sent it back for software update-really didn't notice any difference-
The DSC transformed the stock suspension on my street only car- It rides perfectly in all modes & much more controlled than stock w/o a harsh ride. After you install it once it literally takes 2 minutes total to switch back to stock PASM (i did this in past when i needed CPO svc)-
Car behaves so much better- no more float, much less dip on breaking & no more jarring harsh ride in sport mode. Its a much better riding car now- I usually ride in mode 2, on bad roads switch to mode 1-very nice as described byDuckstu-
Believe i paid just under $1200 for the DSC- worth every cent. Give TPC a call you won't regret it.
I've only 3 mods on my car- DSC, Europipe I exhaust, FVD tune- they're all nice but DSC truly transformed the ride
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Old 08-28-2015, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by TT Surgeon View Post
Interested in a box myself, what do they run, I can't find a price on their site?

It runs eleven ninty. Cheap for the effect it has IMO.

And I asked as I may want to upgrade to the Active dampers in a year or so,.. and was told that they'd just charge me the difference and exchange out the box for one with the proper settings for the Active brand dampers.

So when I can afford them,.. I won't be out anything for having bought this now.
.
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Old 08-28-2015, 06:40 PM
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for track driving using the tpc dsc box (and accelerometer) in my 997.1 gt3 with stock springs and shocks, it is certainly nowhere close to a 'holy grail' situation... i and several other drivers trying the car felt the system has trouble keeping up with quick changes... there is a slight but very noticeable lag to having a response from the shocks when the car is weighted/unweighted, and this can be quite disconcerting on a tight track with quick directional or attitudinal changes... something in the feedback loop between the sensor and the triggering of the shock valving is happening half a step slow...

i think it is very good (and cost effective) product for road driving and certainly gives a wider range of softness/hardness in the 997.1 gt3 application i am familiar with, but it is not the answer if you are looking for great control in intermediate to advanced DE driving applications. perhaps totally unreasonable to expect it to work magic like a tailored suspension using adjustable jrz's or motons tuned for track use...
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Old 08-28-2015, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by golfnutintib View Post
for track driving using the tpc dsc box (and accelerometer) in my 997.1 gt3 with stock springs and shocks, it is certainly nowhere close to a 'holy grail' situation... i and several other drivers trying the car felt the system has trouble keeping up with quick changes...
That sounds right.

When I mentioned "Holy Grail" at the top,.. I was referring to the combination of the TracTive dampers AND this box with different programming.

With just the box alone on a stock suspension,... you get "perhaps" 40-50% of the way there for street driving. (percentages are my guess based on what I've read on the interwebs)

But as I mentioned,.. the stock dampers have a 100 ms reaction time,... v.s. 6 ms for the Active units,... and the stock stuff also has perhaps 1/2 of the adjustment range,... So when you take into account the reaction time and the range together,.. the stock ones are 34 times slower.

Still,.. for regular street use,.. this is a HUGE improvement. IMO,.. from poor,. to what should have been stock on an ultra high quality car like this.

Last edited by Duckstu; 08-29-2015 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 08-29-2015, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Duckstu View Post
So I've been following this thread over in the GT3/2 forum about the DSC box from TPC Racing,... and dampers they're having made by Active. It sounds like it's going to be the holy grail.
https://rennlist.com/forums/997-gt2-...n-forum-3.html

I only just bought my car,.. and a tune,.. and new tires,.. and paid sales tax,..etc,.. so I'm not in the position to swing the entire setup just now. But,.. I was able to swing the DSC box for the stock suspension,.. and so far,... WOW.
http://www.tpcracing.com/dsc.html

The idea is,.. that with the stock PASM setup,.. the shocks have a range of say..... 1-10. With PASM off,.. they are all set to 3 , and with it switched on,.. they're all set to 8.

This DSC box supposedly uses the entire range ,... and each shock is being adjusted separately, in real time. It might be at a 1 or a 2 just driving down the road,.. but hit the brakes and the front might go to 7. Crank it into a right-hand turn,. and the left side might go to 9,. and the right side to 3 (or whatever).

Unfortunately the response time of the stock shocks is a slow-ish 100ms,... so there's a limit to what the box can do with them. The Active dampers they have coming out with have a range that's twice as wide (like from -5 to +15),.. and they have a response time of 6 ms, which is 17 x faster than stock.

From my reading,.. it "sounds" like the DSC box by itself will get you perhaps 40% - 50% of the improvement,. and do that for just 17% of the money, so I thought I'd give it a shot.

I've only put a few miles on it so far,... and haven't had a chance to dive-bomb any corners,.. BUT,.. when going around a corner with ripples in it,.. the inside rear wheel no longer jiggles like the shock is blown out,... and the ride is even more comfortable,.. yet it isn't at all "floaty".

Even in position 2 (of the three),.. it still rides more comfortably than stock with PASM off, and there's no noticeable dive under braking,.. or lean in cornering.

Also,... it no longer changes settings when you press the Sport button,.. which is nice. I can see myself leaving this in setting 2 forever (except position 3 if I ever do a track day). Before if I activated Sport,.. I would then have to turn off the PASM,.. and if I found a smooth road,.. re-activate it. Now there's no reason to ever touch anything. Press Sport if you want to,.. and this stays in the setting you like best. I'm thrilled.


Installation took about 5 minutes. Remove 2-3 of the screw-in clips holding the upper kick-panel above the passenger foot-well,... peel back the carpet on the right side,.. and un-snap the stock unit (black). Plug in the new one and snap back into it's mount. Push the carpet back and press-in the plastic fasteners you removed earlier.

What's nice is there's no alteration of the car, and the car can be returned to stock in the same 5 min.

Thank you for choosing DSC and for your detailed feedback.
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Old 08-29-2015, 12:27 PM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by bgrpph View Post
i bought DSC early on- in Dec 2013 for my 07 997.1TT- talked to TPC earlier this yr & learned my unit had earlier software- sent it back for software update-really didn't notice any difference-
The DSC transformed the stock suspension on my street only car- It rides perfectly in all modes & much more controlled than stock w/o a harsh ride. After you install it once it literally takes 2 minutes total to switch back to stock PASM (i did this in past when i needed CPO svc)-
Car behaves so much better- no more float, much less dip on breaking & no more jarring harsh ride in sport mode. Its a much better riding car now- I usually ride in mode 2, on bad roads switch to mode 1-very nice as described byDuckstu-
Believe i paid just under $1200 for the DSC- worth every cent. Give TPC a call you won't regret it.
I've only 3 mods on my car- DSC, Europipe I exhaust, FVD tune- they're all nice but DSC truly transformed the ride
Thank you again. We are thrilled to hear you are still enjoying your DSC.
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Old 08-29-2015, 01:22 PM
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Tom,
Care to share more here about the new suspension kit with shocks? The two most transformative mods I did to my 997.1 are my UMW tune and the DSC module.

I considered doing bilstein B8's in the future, but it sounds like you have something more interesting planned. What should street cars expect from it or is it best suited to a track car?
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Old 08-29-2015, 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by golfnutintib View Post
for track driving using the tpc dsc box (and accelerometer) in my 997.1 gt3 with stock springs and shocks, it is certainly nowhere close to a 'holy grail' situation... i and several other drivers trying the car felt the system has trouble keeping up with quick changes... there is a slight but very noticeable lag to having a response from the shocks when the car is weighted/unweighted, and this can be quite disconcerting on a tight track with quick directional or attitudinal changes... something in the feedback loop between the sensor and the triggering of the shock valving is happening half a step slow...

i think it is very good (and cost effective) product for road driving and certainly gives a wider range of softness/hardness in the 997.1 gt3 application i am familiar with, but it is not the answer if you are looking for great control in intermediate to advanced DE driving applications. perhaps totally unreasonable to expect it to work magic like a tailored suspension using adjustable jrz's or motons tuned for track use...
Thank you for your feedback.

I agree, DSC by itself doesn't work magic for the entire chassis- DSC module is only one component of the entire suspension system. Even though DSC itself has huge potential for shock damping control and makes immediate improvement, the vehicles performance is ultimately limited by mechanical components(i.e. stock shocks, springs, setup, even tires). One element in particular is mechanical hysteresis of stock PASM shocks as a result of the electro-mechanical mechanism's reaction time AND stiction. The difference alone in the reaction time between 6ms to 100ms at 60mph is ~8.5 inches* of distance travelled. As a side note, believe it or not, some of the popular brand conventional(non-electronic) racing shocks have hysteresis as well especially when the dampening force is dialed up. In any case, the hysteresis can be masked(to make the chassis respond better) by setup changes such as sway bars, spring rates, differential, geometry. Race teams have been "masking" damper stiction with setup for a very long time as tires got better. In recent years ultra high end motorsport shocks have reduced stiction to a whole new level. Tractive is able to provide low stiction feature at a reasonable cost.

Anyway, it has been my experience that majority of DSC users just plug and play, which is perfectly fine for street and light track use, whereas pretty much anyone who buys a set of any brand coilovers changes ride height and gets more aggressive alignment, and very likely other suspension component upgrade at the same time to improve the chassis as a whole.

Back to the topic of the stock PASM shocks, which at lower ride height levels the bump rubbers affect reaction time too. As far as the shock itself, the reaction time is based on the piston differential pressure and load. The DSC software anticipates the stock PASM shock's reaction. Our Engineer is offering a limited number of pre-user version of DSC software(basically Engineering version) if you want to tune your chassis for variables. Let me know if you want to tune your stock PASM shocks. We have advanced level track drivers and chief instructor in our local region running amazing times with DSC controlled Bilstein B16's and shock PASM shocks, with full setup of course.

Last edited by Tom-TPC Racing; 08-29-2015 at 05:19 PM. Reason: *correct for math error for distance of ~8.5 inches
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Old 08-29-2015, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by CincyScott View Post
Tom,
Care to share more here about the new suspension kit with shocks? The two most transformative mods I did to my 997.1 are my UMW tune and the DSC module.

I considered doing bilstein B8's in the future, but it sounds like you have something more interesting planned. What should street cars expect from it or is it best suited to a track car?
Thanks for using DSC. For a mostly street car the B8 is a very good choice for price range to replace shock PASM shocks. Works very well with slightly lowered than stock ride height that are slightly stiffer than stock springs for a sport ride without harshness. Add a set of TPC sway bars and rear toe links its a very good 80% street / 20% track combo. Add Front Wide Track Kit to further increase front grip for extreme street/track performance.

If you are looking for the top-tier electronic coilover then Tractive is it. Its only marginally better than DSC+PASM or B8 on light load ranges for street, but far superior on the other end of the spectrum(for track) as it produces stiffness up to near 1000 lb spring at the time the vehicle/driver wants this level of chassis support. The cost is of course higher for the superior performing/quality component but still in the price range of popular conventional 2-way club race level coilover yet offer much higher versatility, range of adjustment, and technology.
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Old 08-29-2015, 07:15 PM
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Tom,
Thanks for the info. There seems to be a few 997tt owners that want to buy your module. Any chance of a group buy or forum discount? I could help with the organization if needed.
Thanks!
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