AUG 07 Car and Driver 997TT Test...
07-20-2007, 12:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Alexander Stemer
eclou,
Where in your physics did the 300 pounds that the ZO6 doesn't have to propel come into play? Drag is different than weight. You don't need to point drag into a corner, accelerate it, or stop it. But that does apply to the weight. Only in bad weather will the tt prevail.
I haven't bought a ZO6, and probably never will. But the reason I stick with Porsche is not that my tt is faster. AS
Where in your physics did the 300 pounds that the ZO6 doesn't have to propel come into play? Drag is different than weight. You don't need to point drag into a corner, accelerate it, or stop it. But that does apply to the weight. Only in bad weather will the tt prevail.
I haven't bought a ZO6, and probably never will. But the reason I stick with Porsche is not that my tt is faster. AS
07-20-2007, 01:24 AM
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Originally Posted by wanna911
No really it's not, saying that is no different that the GT500 owners saying the GT500 is as fast as a 997 Turbo around a track, simply not true. It is just quoted magazine times when there is plenty of evidence to refute that. The only way a 997 Turbo beat a Z06 to 300kph is because of a horrific launch by the Z06. The Z06 is faster plain and simple. More power, less weight, longer gearing (less shifts, better for top end pull).
My problem with the C&Dis simply that the Porsche werent represented properly which is something that happens to every sports car in some magazine at some point.
My problem with the C&Dis simply that the Porsche werent represented properly which is something that happens to every sports car in some magazine at some point.
Ferrari took this comparison so serious that they send tech support from the factory to make sure that their 599 ran perfectly.
C&D has to literally beg FNA to get a car and sometimes they have to us a vehicle from a owner....shows you right there to what standards they are viewed at.
07-20-2007, 09:20 AM
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Originally Posted by eclou
Adding the weights is a more complex calculation which is perhaps overkill for our esteemed wannabe. But for completeness, the 300 kph power requirements become 395hp for the Z06 and 359 hp for the TT. The TT still has the advantage, as the cube of velocity far outweighs the fixed weight discrepancy.
This must be the denial forum here. The stock Z06 has run 11.3 @ 125-127 on several occasions, IN THE REAL WORLD. Who here has run that in their turbo, or anywhere other than that b.s. time that Motor Trend publish and no one has come close to? In fact who runs anything other than their mouth?
There is no doubt that for a novice driver the Turbo would probably be faster from a launch, but if one says it's faster on the highway (and actually raced them, which you cant if your the only one driving) then there is a discrepancy in driver ability.
My assessments arent based on magazines, show me a bone stock 997 Turbo that traps 127 MPH and I'll shutup!!!!! Show me a stock 997 Turbo running 11.2 and I'll shutup!! Do the math, the turbo doesnt trap anywhere near the same speeds as the Z06 so even if it was ahead at 1/4 mile, it would get walked. I dont need the internet to prove my point, this isnt even a challenge.
07-20-2007, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by wanna911
Overkill? Or you just want to leave it out because it refutes your simple physics calculation? You cant leave out weight and gearing because they have just as much of an impact on acceleration as drag when the differences are that small. You cant just use drag coefficients to determine acceleration and omit every other factor. I cant beleive you even said something like that, who's the simpleton now?
This must be the denial forum here. The stock Z06 has run 11.3 @ 125-127 on several occasions, IN THE REAL WORLD. Who here has run that in their turbo, or anywhere other than that b.s. time that Motor Trend publish and no one has come close to? In fact who runs anything other than their mouth?
There is no doubt that for a novice driver the Turbo would probably be faster from a launch, but if one says it's faster on the highway (and actually raced them, which you cant if your the only one driving) then there is a discrepancy in driver ability.
My assessments arent based on magazines, show me a bone stock 997 Turbo that traps 127 MPH and I'll shutup!!!!! Show me a stock 997 Turbo running 11.2 and I'll shutup!! Do the math, the turbo doesnt trap anywhere near the same speeds as the Z06 so even if it was ahead at 1/4 mile, it would get walked. I dont need the internet to prove my point, this isnt even a challenge.
This must be the denial forum here. The stock Z06 has run 11.3 @ 125-127 on several occasions, IN THE REAL WORLD. Who here has run that in their turbo, or anywhere other than that b.s. time that Motor Trend publish and no one has come close to? In fact who runs anything other than their mouth?
There is no doubt that for a novice driver the Turbo would probably be faster from a launch, but if one says it's faster on the highway (and actually raced them, which you cant if your the only one driving) then there is a discrepancy in driver ability.
My assessments arent based on magazines, show me a bone stock 997 Turbo that traps 127 MPH and I'll shutup!!!!! Show me a stock 997 Turbo running 11.2 and I'll shutup!! Do the math, the turbo doesnt trap anywhere near the same speeds as the Z06 so even if it was ahead at 1/4 mile, it would get walked. I dont need the internet to prove my point, this isnt even a challenge.
You have never showed us any evidence the Z06 can outrun the TT to 300 kph, and keep jabbing about ET's and trap speeds (around 200 kph) like a broken record. No one ever contested the higher trap speeds of the Z06. I've been talking 300 kph from the beginning. I even showed why the Z06 is faster than the TT at 200kph but not at 300 kph. Bring something proof to your argument. We'd be grateful to see it.
07-20-2007, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by eclou
I showed you the drag at 124 mph and the drag at 193 mph. The Z06 slows compared to the TT after the 1/4 because the drag increases exponentially. You can add any additional factors you want - road resistance, gearing, temps - but the biggest factor by FAR is the cube of velocity. Drag is the biggest factor at high speed. Any true Z06/Vette fan would know that for years their nemesis (the Viper) has always been shown tailights at higher speeds because of DRAG. The 1st gen Vipers had Cd's of 0.43/0.40 (top open/closed), the 2nd gen at 0.39, which is why the Vettes could catch up and run away despite the HP gap.
You have never showed us any evidence the Z06 can outrun the TT to 300 kph, and keep jabbing about ET's and trap speeds (around 200 kph) like a broken record. No one ever contested the higher trap speeds of the Z06. I've been talking 300 kph from the beginning. I even showed why the Z06 is faster than the TT at 200kph but not at 300 kph. Bring something proof to your argument. We'd be grateful to see it.
You have never showed us any evidence the Z06 can outrun the TT to 300 kph, and keep jabbing about ET's and trap speeds (around 200 kph) like a broken record. No one ever contested the higher trap speeds of the Z06. I've been talking 300 kph from the beginning. I even showed why the Z06 is faster than the TT at 200kph but not at 300 kph. Bring something proof to your argument. We'd be grateful to see it.
You are the one who has tried to make this a 0-300 kph arguement, and frankly who cares? Who races to 186 mph? How many people will even reach that speed ever in their car?
Not to mention 0-300 tests leave out all of the data from 0-60 and 0-124 or are not representing the maximum potential in those areas which will skew the results and make them vague. A rolling test would be better because an AWD car will have a launch advantage in consistency and chances are the people that are driving these car for magazines arent doing so properly.
How about we try a 50-250kph comparison where the launch isnt a factor? You will see the Z06 be faster by over a second which at those speeds is in access of 5 car lengths and yet it should catch up and pass in the distance of 30 mph. You think about it.
The Z06 is faster every where it counts, you can try to make this a complicated arguement all you want but your cant change the facts. The Turbo may accelerate faster above 140 or so, but it cannot make up the difference to be ahead in that period of time. So you havent proved anything other than the turbo having better acceleration at that higher speed, which means nothing when you are far behind, other than that you are magazine racing, so I'm still waiting for some real world results.
07-20-2007, 10:53 AM
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My original statement
Your "factual" reply
My explanation
Your insightful gem
My calculations were displayed, and re-done to include weight to make everyone happy
Your reply now
You were the one who disputed my 0-300 kph argument to begin with (read it again, I never said we would ever see 300 kph anyway) and now the argument is silly? Congrats, you win!!
Originally Posted by eclou
well, to 300 kph the TT is faster. Not that any of us would ever see that
Originally Posted by wanna911
No really it's not, saying that is no different that the GT500 owners saying the GT500 is as fast as a 997 Turbo around a track, simply not true. It is just quoted magazine times when there is plenty of evidence to refute that. The only way a 997 Turbo beat a Z06 to 300kph is because of a horrific launch by the Z06. The Z06 is faster plain and simple. More power, less weight, longer gearing (less shifts, better for top end pull).
The Z06 has a higher coefficient of drag/larger frontal area, which is why it is slower to 300kph
The Z06 is not slower, period
Your reply now
You are the one who has tried to make this a 0-300 kph arguement, and frankly who cares? Who races to 186 mph? How many people will even reach that speed ever in their car?
07-20-2007, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by eclou
My original statement
Your "factual" reply
My explanation
Your insightful gem
My calculations were displayed, and re-done to include weight to make everyone happy
Your reply now
You were the one who disputed my 0-300 kph argument to begin with (read it again, I never said we would ever see 300 kph anyway) and now the argument is silly? Congrats, you win!!
Your "factual" reply
My explanation
Your insightful gem
My calculations were displayed, and re-done to include weight to make everyone happy
Your reply now
You were the one who disputed my 0-300 kph argument to begin with (read it again, I never said we would ever see 300 kph anyway) and now the argument is silly? Congrats, you win!!
The TT is NOT faster to 300kph than the Z06. I know you have seen the videos of the Turbo getting spanked by the Z06 from a rolling start all the way up to 180 mph, that is real world results. You should at least know that magazine tests are all over the place. But you continue to quote them. Pointless trying to explain to you.
07-20-2007, 04:19 PM
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Kiddie troll, I think it's time for you to quite arguing, you are only focusing on specific criteria in a race that the Z06 has a advantage and neglect to mention the area where the Z06 does not have the upperhand.
Using your logic on the 186mph part, who cares about anythng race other than 0-60? Who cares about 0-200? Who cares about the 1/4 mile time? It's over the national speed limit and not legal so it does not matter, agree? So using your twisted logic, the TT is faster car as it has the lower 0-60 time and the Z06 sucks?
It you are gonna argue that people do go over the 60mph limit, may I remind You that there are parts of the world where people can travel at over 186mph all day, legally. So the top end races are just as important to them as the lower ones.
O also, I think standings starts are better as rolling starts will skew the results and make them vague, an Z06 will have a launch advantage in consistency and chances are the people who do rolling start races aren't doing so properly.
Come to think of it, we really should do only 0-50km/h tests where the launch IS a factor and the Z06 consistantly going sideways instead of forward, that should be a fair test. Another to try is a 250km/h to topspeed, where the launch does not matter. Who cares about the speed in the middle, it does not represent the maximum potential of the car.
Using your logic on the 186mph part, who cares about anythng race other than 0-60? Who cares about 0-200? Who cares about the 1/4 mile time? It's over the national speed limit and not legal so it does not matter, agree? So using your twisted logic, the TT is faster car as it has the lower 0-60 time and the Z06 sucks?
It you are gonna argue that people do go over the 60mph limit, may I remind You that there are parts of the world where people can travel at over 186mph all day, legally. So the top end races are just as important to them as the lower ones.
O also, I think standings starts are better as rolling starts will skew the results and make them vague, an Z06 will have a launch advantage in consistency and chances are the people who do rolling start races aren't doing so properly.
Come to think of it, we really should do only 0-50km/h tests where the launch IS a factor and the Z06 consistantly going sideways instead of forward, that should be a fair test. Another to try is a 250km/h to topspeed, where the launch does not matter. Who cares about the speed in the middle, it does not represent the maximum potential of the car.
Originally Posted by wanna911
You are the one who has tried to make this a 0-300 kph arguement, and frankly who cares? Who races to 186 mph? How many people will even reach that speed ever in their car?
Not to mention 0-300 tests leave out all of the data from 0-60 and 0-124 or are not representing the maximum potential in those areas which will skew the results and make them vague. A rolling test would be better because an AWD car will have a launch advantage in consistency and chances are the people that are driving these car for magazines arent doing so properly.
How about we try a 50-250kph comparison where the launch isnt a factor? You will see the Z06 be faster by over a second which at those speeds is in access of 5 car lengths and yet it should catch up and pass in the distance of 30 mph. You think about it.
The Z06 is faster every where it counts, you can try to make this a complicated arguement all you want but your cant change the facts. The Turbo may accelerate faster above 140 or so, but it cannot make up the difference to be ahead in that period of time. So you havent proved anything other than the turbo having better acceleration at that higher speed, which means nothing when you are far behind, other than that you are magazine racing, so I'm still waiting for some real world results.
Not to mention 0-300 tests leave out all of the data from 0-60 and 0-124 or are not representing the maximum potential in those areas which will skew the results and make them vague. A rolling test would be better because an AWD car will have a launch advantage in consistency and chances are the people that are driving these car for magazines arent doing so properly.
How about we try a 50-250kph comparison where the launch isnt a factor? You will see the Z06 be faster by over a second which at those speeds is in access of 5 car lengths and yet it should catch up and pass in the distance of 30 mph. You think about it.
The Z06 is faster every where it counts, you can try to make this a complicated arguement all you want but your cant change the facts. The Turbo may accelerate faster above 140 or so, but it cannot make up the difference to be ahead in that period of time. So you havent proved anything other than the turbo having better acceleration at that higher speed, which means nothing when you are far behind, other than that you are magazine racing, so I'm still waiting for some real world results.
07-20-2007, 11:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Whoopsy
Kiddie troll, I think it's time for you to quite arguing, you are only focusing on specific criteria in a race that the Z06 has a advantage and neglect to mention the area where the Z06 does not have the upperhand.:
. The only place the Z06 does not have an advantage is the drag, which has already been mentioned, and possibly gearing that is too long which does make it flat at the top of 5th gear.
Originally Posted by Whoopsy
Using your logic on the 186mph part, who cares about anythng race other than 0-60? Who cares about 0-200? Who cares about the 1/4 mile time? It's over the national speed limit and not legal so it does not matter, agree? So using your twisted logic, the TT is faster car as it has the lower 0-60 time and the Z06 sucks?:
Originally Posted by Whoopsy
It you are gonna argue that people do go over the 60mph limit, may I remind You that there are parts of the world where people can travel at over 186mph all day, legally. So the top end races are just as important to them as the lower ones.:
Originally Posted by Whoopsy
O also, I think standings starts are better as rolling starts will skew the results and make them vague, an Z06 will have a launch advantage in consistency and chances are the people who do rolling start races aren't doing so properly.:
Originally Posted by Whoopsy
Come to think of it, we really should do only 0-50km/h tests where the launch IS a factor and the Z06 consistantly going sideways instead of forward, that should be a fair test. Another to try is a 250km/h to topspeed, where the launch does not matter. Who cares about the speed in the middle, it does not represent the maximum potential of the car.
07-21-2007, 06:23 AM
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Wow, this guy wannabe is unbelievable, I use his exact same logic and he can't understand me?
I guess kids do need a little bit more explaining than adults:
So you hand pick situations where the Z06 has the most advantage and compared them to the 997TT's performance, I did exactly what you did but in reverse, I picked situations where the 997TT has the most advantage, still with me or do I need to double back and pick you up? I guess I will put it in even simpler terms:
It all basically means you are just twisting stuff enough to make sure the Z06 comes out a winner and 997TT comes out a loser, I just twist the stuff the other way to make sure Z06 comes out a loser.
Man is this wannabe for real or a high schooler on holiday hijacked his dad's account?
I guess kids do need a little bit more explaining than adults:
So you hand pick situations where the Z06 has the most advantage and compared them to the 997TT's performance, I did exactly what you did but in reverse, I picked situations where the 997TT has the most advantage, still with me or do I need to double back and pick you up? I guess I will put it in even simpler terms:
It all basically means you are just twisting stuff enough to make sure the Z06 comes out a winner and 997TT comes out a loser, I just twist the stuff the other way to make sure Z06 comes out a loser.
Man is this wannabe for real or a high schooler on holiday hijacked his dad's account?
07-21-2007, 08:56 AM
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Originally Posted by Whoopsy
Wow, this guy wannabe is unbelievable, I use his exact same logic and he can't understand me?
I guess kids do need a little bit more explaining than adults:
So you hand pick situations where the Z06 has the most advantage and compared them to the 997TT's performance, I did exactly what you did but in reverse, I picked situations where the 997TT has the most advantage, still with me or do I need to double back and pick you up? I guess I will put it in even simpler terms:
It all basically means you are just twisting stuff enough to make sure the Z06 comes out a winner and 997TT comes out a loser, I just twist the stuff the other way to make sure Z06 comes out a loser.
Man is this wannabe for real or a high schooler on holiday hijacked his dad's account?
I guess kids do need a little bit more explaining than adults:
So you hand pick situations where the Z06 has the most advantage and compared them to the 997TT's performance, I did exactly what you did but in reverse, I picked situations where the 997TT has the most advantage, still with me or do I need to double back and pick you up? I guess I will put it in even simpler terms:
It all basically means you are just twisting stuff enough to make sure the Z06 comes out a winner and 997TT comes out a loser, I just twist the stuff the other way to make sure Z06 comes out a loser.
Man is this wannabe for real or a high schooler on holiday hijacked his dad's account?
With that being said, their isnt anything I need to hand pick, the Z06 has the advantage everywhere when it comes to performance but launch consistency and top speed aero. If you want to know, I dont like the Z06, but I know it's faster than a 997 Turbo, which I hate that Porsche didnt deliver what was expected with the 997, and the front fascia is ugly.
I'm not anti Tubo, but I give credit where it is due, I get called all kinds of names on corvetteforum too because I tell it like it is. Some people just cant handle the truth.
P.S. If you think I'm a wannabe with my dads computer, lets meet at a track somewhere (road course) and I'll show you a wannabe in a car of the same lineage as the TT we are discussing. Like I said I run other things than my mouth, you should try it.
07-21-2007, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by eclou
http://www.6speedonline.com/forums/s...ad.php?t=85076
It will happen, and I'd bet some of the people complaining like old bags in that thread will be there. We have close to 40 people commited to this event depending on the venue.
So..... your point?