Electric Wing Actuators DIY? No more hydraulics!
02-25-2018, 05:09 PM
#16
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It would be nice to tear one apart. If the wall thickness of the actuator tube was thick enough one could weld the mount flange. The factory design has 4 pinch welds
02-25-2018, 06:55 PM
#17
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Here is a great linear actuator (example of what is available>very compact) A modified re-design would shave about 1.5" off the entire length..
https://www.actuatorzone.com/media/c...peed_PA-15.pdf
https://www.actuatorzone.com/media/c...peed_PA-15.pdf
02-26-2018, 01:47 AM
#19
Rennlist Member
I'm a big fan of finding ways to keep my cars on the road as cost effectively as possible. Heck, I just finished doing the "Jimi Fix" on my Cayenne driveshaft that uses radiator hose and zip ties to create a bearing carrier to avoid having to replace the driveshaft. But, this thread's got me scratching my head for several reasons:
1. Are you guys really going to put a homemade wing actuator on your 997TT? The wing on my 996TT was inop when I bought my car, and I spent a lot of time researching alternatives. The thought of cobbling something together to replace the wing hydraulics never crossed my mind. There are already several options for dealing with this issue without making your own.
2. The Rennkit eRam system is what you are copying. Not sure why you aren't just saying it. Are you afraid to say "Rennkit eRam" like Voldemort or something? Not saying the name doesn't change what you're doing.
3. Since the Rennkit eRam system is already on the market and has already been through beta testing and has many happy customers, the only reason I can think of for making your own is to save a few bucks. And the Rennkit eRam is only about half the price of replacing the factory hydraulic system at the dealership - I've seen guys buy a set of wheels where each wheel costs as much as a Rennkit eRam system.
4. When you go to sell the car, what's the conversation going to go like? "Hey, take a look at my homemade wing actuator!"
5. If I was considering buying a 997TT and found out it had a homemade wing actuator, I'd have a lot of questions about what else was done to save money on maintenance with the car. Actually, that's a lie, I wouldn't have ANY more questions whatsoever - I'd already know everything I needed to know about that car.
6. This isn't coming up with anything new - it's taking someone else's idea and hard work and design and copying it. Dave put a nice note in post #8. If I were Dave, though, I'd be madder than hell about somebody copying my PATENTED design that he no doubt spent a ton of time and effort to design, create and develop. So, above, when you say "I Have plenty of pictures of the "clamps" or "brackets" and have a few ideas for my own design" and "I think there could be a market for someone to just sell the mounting brackets and wiring (really, who cares if there is a logo re-painted on the actuator!)," are you planning on at least giving Dave some credit for his design and work? The pictures of the clamps and brackets didn't just materialize out of thin air.
7. The Rennkit eRam system was created by a fellow Rennlister - just another Porsche enthusiast. It's a small business, not a big corporation. Rather than copycatting it (and harming Dave's fledgling business in the process), what we need is someone to come up with new ideas for dealing with this OEM hydraulic actuator issue and other problem areas. As TT Surgeon mentions, Kevin has or is working on a new repair product for the OEM hydraulic system - that's the kind of effort that we need.
Bottom line, I appreciate your enthusiasm and the desire to save a buck. I just think doing a homemade kit to save a few bucks over a professional kit is a bad idea, especially on a car like a 997TT. And I'd rather see you come up with a new idea rather than cannibalizing one of our own.
1. Are you guys really going to put a homemade wing actuator on your 997TT? The wing on my 996TT was inop when I bought my car, and I spent a lot of time researching alternatives. The thought of cobbling something together to replace the wing hydraulics never crossed my mind. There are already several options for dealing with this issue without making your own.
2. The Rennkit eRam system is what you are copying. Not sure why you aren't just saying it. Are you afraid to say "Rennkit eRam" like Voldemort or something? Not saying the name doesn't change what you're doing.
3. Since the Rennkit eRam system is already on the market and has already been through beta testing and has many happy customers, the only reason I can think of for making your own is to save a few bucks. And the Rennkit eRam is only about half the price of replacing the factory hydraulic system at the dealership - I've seen guys buy a set of wheels where each wheel costs as much as a Rennkit eRam system.
4. When you go to sell the car, what's the conversation going to go like? "Hey, take a look at my homemade wing actuator!"
5. If I was considering buying a 997TT and found out it had a homemade wing actuator, I'd have a lot of questions about what else was done to save money on maintenance with the car. Actually, that's a lie, I wouldn't have ANY more questions whatsoever - I'd already know everything I needed to know about that car.
6. This isn't coming up with anything new - it's taking someone else's idea and hard work and design and copying it. Dave put a nice note in post #8. If I were Dave, though, I'd be madder than hell about somebody copying my PATENTED design that he no doubt spent a ton of time and effort to design, create and develop. So, above, when you say "I Have plenty of pictures of the "clamps" or "brackets" and have a few ideas for my own design" and "I think there could be a market for someone to just sell the mounting brackets and wiring (really, who cares if there is a logo re-painted on the actuator!)," are you planning on at least giving Dave some credit for his design and work? The pictures of the clamps and brackets didn't just materialize out of thin air.
7. The Rennkit eRam system was created by a fellow Rennlister - just another Porsche enthusiast. It's a small business, not a big corporation. Rather than copycatting it (and harming Dave's fledgling business in the process), what we need is someone to come up with new ideas for dealing with this OEM hydraulic actuator issue and other problem areas. As TT Surgeon mentions, Kevin has or is working on a new repair product for the OEM hydraulic system - that's the kind of effort that we need.
Bottom line, I appreciate your enthusiasm and the desire to save a buck. I just think doing a homemade kit to save a few bucks over a professional kit is a bad idea, especially on a car like a 997TT. And I'd rather see you come up with a new idea rather than cannibalizing one of our own.
02-26-2018, 09:11 AM
#20
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Ahhh, here we go. I figured an owner of an Eram would chime in at some point. I was trying to avoid this moment, but now that we have clicked JD rings, kcattorney, I'll answer your questions below.
kcattorney; I'm a big fan of finding ways to keep my cars on the road as cost effectively as possible. Heck, I just finished doing the "Jimi Fix" on my Cayenne driveshaft that uses radiator hose and zip ties to create a bearing carrier to avoid having to replace the driveshaft. But, this thread's got me scratching my head for several reasons:
1. Are you guys really going to put a homemade wing actuator on your 997TT? The wing on my 996TT was inop when I bought my car, and I spent a lot of time researching alternatives. The thought of cobbling something together to replace the wing hydraulics never crossed my mind. There are already several options for dealing with this issue without making your own.
Yes, my solution will be equally as "homemade" as the Eram (which is basically a linear actuator and a few "homemade" clamps holding it in place). So, you kcattorney, have a homemade solution in your very own 997TT. In fact, my homemade version may look and function better than the Eram that you installed!
2. The Rennkit eRam system is what you are copying. Not sure why you aren't just saying it. Are you afraid to say "Rennkit eRam" like Voldemort or something? Not saying the name doesn't change what you're doing.
Not copying. I'm innovating. The mindset is, how can I make this better and cheaper? I was trying to avoid bringing Voldemort into the forum thread because my concern it would break some forum rule or that someone that is a long time member would wave a white flag and try to remove the thread. I haven't been here nearly as long as Voldemort.
3. Since the Rennkit eRam system is already on the market and has already been through beta testing and has many happy customers, the only reason I can think of for making your own is to save a few bucks. And the Rennkit eRam is only about half the price of replacing the factory hydraulic system at the dealership - I've seen guys buy a set of wheels where each wheel costs as much as a Rennkit eRam system.
Ok, lets rehash. Yes there is a system out there. Yes, it seems to work well. Yes, you hit the nail on the head. It is way overpriced! I don't think we need to discuss the factory system, do we?
Regarding "I've seen guys buy a set of wheels where each wheel costs as much as a Rennkit eRam system." Seriously? You must be kidding kcattorney. Ok, I'll bite. I've seen guys buy cars that cost as much as an average house. I've seen guys buy guys buy plenty of expensive things. This has no merit here. Sure, there will always be a more expensive "one" out there. That is not the point here. By all means, the guy with money to burn can certainly just tell his butler to take the car by the shop and have the Voldemort system installed. I get it. Some people wan't their hands clean and just want it taken care of, no matter the cost.
4. When you go to sell the car, what's the conversation going to go like? "Hey, take a look at my homemade wing actuator!"
I'm really confused now, kcattorney. That's what you did! I could say, "Hey, take a look at my $1,800 Chinese actuator with Voldemort logo painted on it." I'd rather say, "Hey take a look at how I saved the engine bay and bumper from fluid leaking from the factory system."
5. If I was considering buying a 997TT and found out it had a homemade wing actuator, I'd have a lot of questions about what else was done to save money on maintenance with the car. Actually, that's a lie, I wouldn't have ANY more questions whatsoever - I'd already know everything I needed to know about that car.
Again, I'm confused. You, put a homemade actuator in your TT. How is yours any different? Clearly you didn't take the time to read the thread. You simply bought an $1,800 clamp and bracket and slapped it on your beautiful TT. I am sorry if you regret that, but I suppose it is the best we can do, because the factory system is awful. I will be using the EXACT same actuator as you, but my clamp will look different (actually better :-). I hope we don't put our cars on the market at the same time :-)
6. This isn't coming up with anything new - it's [u]taking someone else's idea and hard work and design and copying it. Dave put a nice note in post #8. If I were Dave, though, I'd be madder than hell about somebody copying my PATENTED design that he no doubt spent a ton of time and effort to design, create and develop. So, above, when you say "I Have plenty of pictures of the "clamps" or "brackets" and have a few ideas for my own design" and "I think there could be a market for someone to just sell the mounting brackets and wiring (really, who cares if there is a logo re-painted on the actuator!)," are you planning on at least giving Dave some credit for his design and work? The pictures of the clamps and brackets didn't just materialize out of thin air.
First, it isn't patented. He has a patent application (US20160355219A1) for a Spoiler Wing Extension and Retraction System. You should read it. Ok, it's a boring read, but read it anyway. Could you imagine a world where things weren't improved upon. Where there was only one type of item? Maybe that's your world, kcattorney, but not mine. I love innovation. I love seeing how things can be made better. Heck, I'm thrilled that someone had an idea. I suppose, others should be equally as thrilled that I can make it better and for less . Perhaps you were a loyal employee of Kodak, IBM, Compaq, or some other company that chose not to innovate!
7. The Rennkit eRam system was created by a fellow Rennlister - just another Porsche enthusiast. It's a small business, not a big corporation. Rather than copycatting it (and harming Dave's fledgling business in the process), what we need is someone to come up with [u]new ideas for dealing with this OEM hydraulic actuator issue and other problem areas. As TT Surgeon mentions, Kevin has or is working on a new repair product for the OEM hydraulic system - that's the kind of effort that we need.
You couldn't be more wrong here. You live a crazy world of your own, called monopoly land. Are you saying that I MUST buy the Voldemort system or nothing? That's absolutely ridiculous. The way I see it (until someone invents anti-gravity), there are two distinct systems, electric and hydraulic. I chose to innovate on the electric side. Perhaps Kevin chose hydraulic. I would equally invite Kevin to develop alternative electronic or some other new method.
Bottom line, I appreciate your enthusiasm and the desire to save a buck. I just think doing a homemade kit to save a few bucks over a professional kit is a bad idea, especially on a car like a 997TT. And I'd rather see you come up with a new idea rather than cannibalizing one of our own.
I'm from a school of thought that is 180 degrees opposite from you. I'd rather see everyone (who wants to) work on it and make it better. This is one that can be done at home easily. So I say, why not!
Please tell me that your plate says "LAWYERUP." That would be classic!
kcattorney; I'm a big fan of finding ways to keep my cars on the road as cost effectively as possible. Heck, I just finished doing the "Jimi Fix" on my Cayenne driveshaft that uses radiator hose and zip ties to create a bearing carrier to avoid having to replace the driveshaft. But, this thread's got me scratching my head for several reasons:
1. Are you guys really going to put a homemade wing actuator on your 997TT? The wing on my 996TT was inop when I bought my car, and I spent a lot of time researching alternatives. The thought of cobbling something together to replace the wing hydraulics never crossed my mind. There are already several options for dealing with this issue without making your own.
Yes, my solution will be equally as "homemade" as the Eram (which is basically a linear actuator and a few "homemade" clamps holding it in place). So, you kcattorney, have a homemade solution in your very own 997TT. In fact, my homemade version may look and function better than the Eram that you installed!
2. The Rennkit eRam system is what you are copying. Not sure why you aren't just saying it. Are you afraid to say "Rennkit eRam" like Voldemort or something? Not saying the name doesn't change what you're doing.
Not copying. I'm innovating. The mindset is, how can I make this better and cheaper? I was trying to avoid bringing Voldemort into the forum thread because my concern it would break some forum rule or that someone that is a long time member would wave a white flag and try to remove the thread. I haven't been here nearly as long as Voldemort.
3. Since the Rennkit eRam system is already on the market and has already been through beta testing and has many happy customers, the only reason I can think of for making your own is to save a few bucks. And the Rennkit eRam is only about half the price of replacing the factory hydraulic system at the dealership - I've seen guys buy a set of wheels where each wheel costs as much as a Rennkit eRam system.
Ok, lets rehash. Yes there is a system out there. Yes, it seems to work well. Yes, you hit the nail on the head. It is way overpriced! I don't think we need to discuss the factory system, do we?
Regarding "I've seen guys buy a set of wheels where each wheel costs as much as a Rennkit eRam system." Seriously? You must be kidding kcattorney. Ok, I'll bite. I've seen guys buy cars that cost as much as an average house. I've seen guys buy guys buy plenty of expensive things. This has no merit here. Sure, there will always be a more expensive "one" out there. That is not the point here. By all means, the guy with money to burn can certainly just tell his butler to take the car by the shop and have the Voldemort system installed. I get it. Some people wan't their hands clean and just want it taken care of, no matter the cost.
4. When you go to sell the car, what's the conversation going to go like? "Hey, take a look at my homemade wing actuator!"
I'm really confused now, kcattorney. That's what you did! I could say, "Hey, take a look at my $1,800 Chinese actuator with Voldemort logo painted on it." I'd rather say, "Hey take a look at how I saved the engine bay and bumper from fluid leaking from the factory system."
5. If I was considering buying a 997TT and found out it had a homemade wing actuator, I'd have a lot of questions about what else was done to save money on maintenance with the car. Actually, that's a lie, I wouldn't have ANY more questions whatsoever - I'd already know everything I needed to know about that car.
Again, I'm confused. You, put a homemade actuator in your TT. How is yours any different? Clearly you didn't take the time to read the thread. You simply bought an $1,800 clamp and bracket and slapped it on your beautiful TT. I am sorry if you regret that, but I suppose it is the best we can do, because the factory system is awful. I will be using the EXACT same actuator as you, but my clamp will look different (actually better :-). I hope we don't put our cars on the market at the same time :-)
6. This isn't coming up with anything new - it's [u]taking someone else's idea and hard work and design and copying it. Dave put a nice note in post #8. If I were Dave, though, I'd be madder than hell about somebody copying my PATENTED design that he no doubt spent a ton of time and effort to design, create and develop. So, above, when you say "I Have plenty of pictures of the "clamps" or "brackets" and have a few ideas for my own design" and "I think there could be a market for someone to just sell the mounting brackets and wiring (really, who cares if there is a logo re-painted on the actuator!)," are you planning on at least giving Dave some credit for his design and work? The pictures of the clamps and brackets didn't just materialize out of thin air.
First, it isn't patented. He has a patent application (US20160355219A1) for a Spoiler Wing Extension and Retraction System. You should read it. Ok, it's a boring read, but read it anyway. Could you imagine a world where things weren't improved upon. Where there was only one type of item? Maybe that's your world, kcattorney, but not mine. I love innovation. I love seeing how things can be made better. Heck, I'm thrilled that someone had an idea. I suppose, others should be equally as thrilled that I can make it better and for less . Perhaps you were a loyal employee of Kodak, IBM, Compaq, or some other company that chose not to innovate!
7. The Rennkit eRam system was created by a fellow Rennlister - just another Porsche enthusiast. It's a small business, not a big corporation. Rather than copycatting it (and harming Dave's fledgling business in the process), what we need is someone to come up with [u]new ideas for dealing with this OEM hydraulic actuator issue and other problem areas. As TT Surgeon mentions, Kevin has or is working on a new repair product for the OEM hydraulic system - that's the kind of effort that we need.
You couldn't be more wrong here. You live a crazy world of your own, called monopoly land. Are you saying that I MUST buy the Voldemort system or nothing? That's absolutely ridiculous. The way I see it (until someone invents anti-gravity), there are two distinct systems, electric and hydraulic. I chose to innovate on the electric side. Perhaps Kevin chose hydraulic. I would equally invite Kevin to develop alternative electronic or some other new method.
Bottom line, I appreciate your enthusiasm and the desire to save a buck. I just think doing a homemade kit to save a few bucks over a professional kit is a bad idea, especially on a car like a 997TT. And I'd rather see you come up with a new idea rather than cannibalizing one of our own.
I'm from a school of thought that is 180 degrees opposite from you. I'd rather see everyone (who wants to) work on it and make it better. This is one that can be done at home easily. So I say, why not!
Please tell me that your plate says "LAWYERUP." That would be classic!
Last edited by original; 02-26-2018 at 09:47 AM.
02-26-2018, 09:37 AM
#21
Well said!
i work for a place with continuous improvement is a way of life.
Make something better or the same with less cost is a win win.
The kits that are available now are grossly over priced given the parts involved.
I will be following this thread and we use this type of actuator in many applications where I work.
i work for a place with continuous improvement is a way of life.
Make something better or the same with less cost is a win win.
The kits that are available now are grossly over priced given the parts involved.
I will be following this thread and we use this type of actuator in many applications where I work.
02-26-2018, 10:12 AM
#22
That’s what happens in this type of marketing. You need to price it just above your costs. Make a few bucks and everyone wins. It curtails “some” of us from finding a cheaper way. You price that unit at $750.00, I would definitely buy one. You can’t price it at $1800.00 because the OEM is $3500. Now, it’s just too late, somebody will probably make an “equivalent” and sell appropriately.
02-26-2018, 12:07 PM
#23
Drifting
Good rebuttals. I think some people assign a little too much magic to something just because it's expensive.
02-26-2018, 06:10 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
I'm not sure why you seem so concerned with my username when the topic is the eRam system.
I'll let you be the expert on Intellectual Property Law. Interesting though that you admit actual knowledge of his patent filing and that you're using it.
And, you aren't making it better. You believe you can make it cheaper because you didn't have to design it, develop it and bring it to market.
The least you could do is refer to the man by his name. It's not necessary to insult him as well.
I'll let you be the expert on Intellectual Property Law. Interesting though that you admit actual knowledge of his patent filing and that you're using it.
And, you aren't making it better. You believe you can make it cheaper because you didn't have to design it, develop it and bring it to market.
The least you could do is refer to the man by his name. It's not necessary to insult him as well.
02-26-2018, 10:47 PM
#25
Burning Brakes
Original has very good points. The main system (actuators) has already been designed and readily available for anyone to procure. The framework has been established and he has other concepts in mind for continued improvement.
Just like Tesla I guess. He didn't invent the car or the tires, but he improved the innovation surrounding a valued product.
Just like Tesla I guess. He didn't invent the car or the tires, but he improved the innovation surrounding a valued product.
Last edited by estrellajon; 02-27-2018 at 06:26 AM.
02-26-2018, 11:20 PM
#26
Ahhh, here we go. I figured an owner of an Eram would chime in at some point. I was trying to avoid this moment, but now that we have clicked JD rings, kcattorney, I'll answer your questions below.
kcattorney; I'm a big fan of finding ways to keep my cars on the road as cost effectively as possible. Heck, I just finished doing the "Jimi Fix" on my Cayenne driveshaft that uses radiator hose and zip ties to create a bearing carrier to avoid having to replace the driveshaft. But, this thread's got me scratching my head for several reasons:
1. Are you guys really going to put a homemade wing actuator on your 997TT? The wing on my 996TT was inop when I bought my car, and I spent a lot of time researching alternatives. The thought of cobbling something together to replace the wing hydraulics never crossed my mind. There are already several options for dealing with this issue without making your own.
Yes, my solution will be equally as "homemade" as the Eram (which is basically a linear actuator and a few "homemade" clamps holding it in place). So, you kcattorney, have a homemade solution in your very own 997TT. In fact, my homemade version may look and function better than the Eram that you installed!
2. The Rennkit eRam system is what you are copying. Not sure why you aren't just saying it. Are you afraid to say "Rennkit eRam" like Voldemort or something? Not saying the name doesn't change what you're doing.
Not copying. I'm innovating. The mindset is, how can I make this better and cheaper? I was trying to avoid bringing Voldemort into the forum thread because my concern it would break some forum rule or that someone that is a long time member would wave a white flag and try to remove the thread. I haven't been here nearly as long as Voldemort.
3. Since the Rennkit eRam system is already on the market and has already been through beta testing and has many happy customers, the only reason I can think of for making your own is to save a few bucks. And the Rennkit eRam is only about half the price of replacing the factory hydraulic system at the dealership - I've seen guys buy a set of wheels where each wheel costs as much as a Rennkit eRam system.
Ok, lets rehash. Yes there is a system out there. Yes, it seems to work well. Yes, you hit the nail on the head. It is way overpriced! I don't think we need to discuss the factory system, do we?
Regarding "I've seen guys buy a set of wheels where each wheel costs as much as a Rennkit eRam system." Seriously? You must be kidding kcattorney. Ok, I'll bite. I've seen guys buy cars that cost as much as an average house. I've seen guys buy guys buy plenty of expensive things. This has no merit here. Sure, there will always be a more expensive "one" out there. That is not the point here. By all means, the guy with money to burn can certainly just tell his butler to take the car by the shop and have the Voldemort system installed. I get it. Some people wan't their hands clean and just want it taken care of, no matter the cost.
4. When you go to sell the car, what's the conversation going to go like? "Hey, take a look at my homemade wing actuator!"
I'm really confused now, kcattorney. That's what you did! I could say, "Hey, take a look at my $1,800 Chinese actuator with Voldemort logo painted on it." I'd rather say, "Hey take a look at how I saved the engine bay and bumper from fluid leaking from the factory system."
5. If I was considering buying a 997TT and found out it had a homemade wing actuator, I'd have a lot of questions about what else was done to save money on maintenance with the car. Actually, that's a lie, I wouldn't have ANY more questions whatsoever - I'd already know everything I needed to know about that car.
Again, I'm confused. You, put a homemade actuator in your TT. How is yours any different? Clearly you didn't take the time to read the thread. You simply bought an $1,800 clamp and bracket and slapped it on your beautiful TT. I am sorry if you regret that, but I suppose it is the best we can do, because the factory system is awful. I will be using the EXACT same actuator as you, but my clamp will look different (actually better :-). I hope we don't put our cars on the market at the same time :-)
6. This isn't coming up with anything new - it's [u]taking someone else's idea and hard work and design and copying it. Dave put a nice note in post #8. If I were Dave, though, I'd be madder than hell about somebody copying my PATENTED design that he no doubt spent a ton of time and effort to design, create and develop. So, above, when you say "I Have plenty of pictures of the "clamps" or "brackets" and have a few ideas for my own design" and "I think there could be a market for someone to just sell the mounting brackets and wiring (really, who cares if there is a logo re-painted on the actuator!)," are you planning on at least giving Dave some credit for his design and work? The pictures of the clamps and brackets didn't just materialize out of thin air.
First, it isn't patented. He has a patent application (US20160355219A1) for a Spoiler Wing Extension and Retraction System. You should read it. Ok, it's a boring read, but read it anyway. Could you imagine a world where things weren't improved upon. Where there was only one type of item? Maybe that's your world, kcattorney, but not mine. I love innovation. I love seeing how things can be made better. Heck, I'm thrilled that someone had an idea. I suppose, others should be equally as thrilled that I can make it better and for less . Perhaps you were a loyal employee of Kodak, IBM, Compaq, or some other company that chose not to innovate!
7. The Rennkit eRam system was created by a fellow Rennlister - just another Porsche enthusiast. It's a small business, not a big corporation. Rather than copycatting it (and harming Dave's fledgling business in the process), what we need is someone to come up with [u]new ideas for dealing with this OEM hydraulic actuator issue and other problem areas. As TT Surgeon mentions, Kevin has or is working on a new repair product for the OEM hydraulic system - that's the kind of effort that we need.
You couldn't be more wrong here. You live a crazy world of your own, called monopoly land. Are you saying that I MUST buy the Voldemort system or nothing? That's absolutely ridiculous. The way I see it (until someone invents anti-gravity), there are two distinct systems, electric and hydraulic. I chose to innovate on the electric side. Perhaps Kevin chose hydraulic. I would equally invite Kevin to develop alternative electronic or some other new method.
Bottom line, I appreciate your enthusiasm and the desire to save a buck. I just think doing a homemade kit to save a few bucks over a professional kit is a bad idea, especially on a car like a 997TT. And I'd rather see you come up with a new idea rather than cannibalizing one of our own.
I'm from a school of thought that is 180 degrees opposite from you. I'd rather see everyone (who wants to) work on it and make it better. This is one that can be done at home easily. So I say, why not!
Please tell me that your plate says "LAWYERUP." That would be classic!
kcattorney; I'm a big fan of finding ways to keep my cars on the road as cost effectively as possible. Heck, I just finished doing the "Jimi Fix" on my Cayenne driveshaft that uses radiator hose and zip ties to create a bearing carrier to avoid having to replace the driveshaft. But, this thread's got me scratching my head for several reasons:
1. Are you guys really going to put a homemade wing actuator on your 997TT? The wing on my 996TT was inop when I bought my car, and I spent a lot of time researching alternatives. The thought of cobbling something together to replace the wing hydraulics never crossed my mind. There are already several options for dealing with this issue without making your own.
Yes, my solution will be equally as "homemade" as the Eram (which is basically a linear actuator and a few "homemade" clamps holding it in place). So, you kcattorney, have a homemade solution in your very own 997TT. In fact, my homemade version may look and function better than the Eram that you installed!
2. The Rennkit eRam system is what you are copying. Not sure why you aren't just saying it. Are you afraid to say "Rennkit eRam" like Voldemort or something? Not saying the name doesn't change what you're doing.
Not copying. I'm innovating. The mindset is, how can I make this better and cheaper? I was trying to avoid bringing Voldemort into the forum thread because my concern it would break some forum rule or that someone that is a long time member would wave a white flag and try to remove the thread. I haven't been here nearly as long as Voldemort.
3. Since the Rennkit eRam system is already on the market and has already been through beta testing and has many happy customers, the only reason I can think of for making your own is to save a few bucks. And the Rennkit eRam is only about half the price of replacing the factory hydraulic system at the dealership - I've seen guys buy a set of wheels where each wheel costs as much as a Rennkit eRam system.
Ok, lets rehash. Yes there is a system out there. Yes, it seems to work well. Yes, you hit the nail on the head. It is way overpriced! I don't think we need to discuss the factory system, do we?
Regarding "I've seen guys buy a set of wheels where each wheel costs as much as a Rennkit eRam system." Seriously? You must be kidding kcattorney. Ok, I'll bite. I've seen guys buy cars that cost as much as an average house. I've seen guys buy guys buy plenty of expensive things. This has no merit here. Sure, there will always be a more expensive "one" out there. That is not the point here. By all means, the guy with money to burn can certainly just tell his butler to take the car by the shop and have the Voldemort system installed. I get it. Some people wan't their hands clean and just want it taken care of, no matter the cost.
4. When you go to sell the car, what's the conversation going to go like? "Hey, take a look at my homemade wing actuator!"
I'm really confused now, kcattorney. That's what you did! I could say, "Hey, take a look at my $1,800 Chinese actuator with Voldemort logo painted on it." I'd rather say, "Hey take a look at how I saved the engine bay and bumper from fluid leaking from the factory system."
5. If I was considering buying a 997TT and found out it had a homemade wing actuator, I'd have a lot of questions about what else was done to save money on maintenance with the car. Actually, that's a lie, I wouldn't have ANY more questions whatsoever - I'd already know everything I needed to know about that car.
Again, I'm confused. You, put a homemade actuator in your TT. How is yours any different? Clearly you didn't take the time to read the thread. You simply bought an $1,800 clamp and bracket and slapped it on your beautiful TT. I am sorry if you regret that, but I suppose it is the best we can do, because the factory system is awful. I will be using the EXACT same actuator as you, but my clamp will look different (actually better :-). I hope we don't put our cars on the market at the same time :-)
6. This isn't coming up with anything new - it's [u]taking someone else's idea and hard work and design and copying it. Dave put a nice note in post #8. If I were Dave, though, I'd be madder than hell about somebody copying my PATENTED design that he no doubt spent a ton of time and effort to design, create and develop. So, above, when you say "I Have plenty of pictures of the "clamps" or "brackets" and have a few ideas for my own design" and "I think there could be a market for someone to just sell the mounting brackets and wiring (really, who cares if there is a logo re-painted on the actuator!)," are you planning on at least giving Dave some credit for his design and work? The pictures of the clamps and brackets didn't just materialize out of thin air.
First, it isn't patented. He has a patent application (US20160355219A1) for a Spoiler Wing Extension and Retraction System. You should read it. Ok, it's a boring read, but read it anyway. Could you imagine a world where things weren't improved upon. Where there was only one type of item? Maybe that's your world, kcattorney, but not mine. I love innovation. I love seeing how things can be made better. Heck, I'm thrilled that someone had an idea. I suppose, others should be equally as thrilled that I can make it better and for less . Perhaps you were a loyal employee of Kodak, IBM, Compaq, or some other company that chose not to innovate!
7. The Rennkit eRam system was created by a fellow Rennlister - just another Porsche enthusiast. It's a small business, not a big corporation. Rather than copycatting it (and harming Dave's fledgling business in the process), what we need is someone to come up with [u]new ideas for dealing with this OEM hydraulic actuator issue and other problem areas. As TT Surgeon mentions, Kevin has or is working on a new repair product for the OEM hydraulic system - that's the kind of effort that we need.
You couldn't be more wrong here. You live a crazy world of your own, called monopoly land. Are you saying that I MUST buy the Voldemort system or nothing? That's absolutely ridiculous. The way I see it (until someone invents anti-gravity), there are two distinct systems, electric and hydraulic. I chose to innovate on the electric side. Perhaps Kevin chose hydraulic. I would equally invite Kevin to develop alternative electronic or some other new method.
Bottom line, I appreciate your enthusiasm and the desire to save a buck. I just think doing a homemade kit to save a few bucks over a professional kit is a bad idea, especially on a car like a 997TT. And I'd rather see you come up with a new idea rather than cannibalizing one of our own.
I'm from a school of thought that is 180 degrees opposite from you. I'd rather see everyone (who wants to) work on it and make it better. This is one that can be done at home easily. So I say, why not!
Please tell me that your plate says "LAWYERUP." That would be classic!
Keep plugging buddy....
DC
02-27-2018, 04:02 PM
#27
Three Wheelin'
With as many engineers that own Porsches, I'm shocked this hasn't been publicly done already.
When the rams first went out on my car a couple of years ago, I looked into this kit and came to the same conclusion- Porsche tax is being applied, heavily, on cheap-ish parts. I dont mind paying for quality, and at $2000 per set of eRams I've got 5-6x more than an eRam kit cost in my suspension, and 3-4x in my wheels etc etc.. This is an expensive "hack" more than a complete ground-up redesign with aerospace or even motorsport grade parts. The value wasn't there for me to pay that much for an actuator that itself was developed for essentially opening and closing doors.
Without ever even seeing one of these kits in person and only knowing it used linear electric actuators, it was super easy to come up with a solution on my own that was a different way to the achieve the same effect (using an electric actuator to raise and lower a body panel). I got a little too creative with mine and tried to incorporate air-brake and adjustable aero based on speed (think McLaren 650S type of movement on wing) and found there was no electric actuator out that can react fast enough while safely holding the force that an airbrake would apply on the actuator arm. Since I couldn't do it the way I wanted to, I set it all aside and decided to go with a full cup car decklid/wing. An up-down movement to replicate factory function only is super simple to figure out with how to mount to car and blade and the only "hard" part about the whole thing is in the circuitry is getting the timing right on when to have the signal sent to the gauge cluster so there is no error light triggered.
Intellectual Property Law doesn't come into play in this scenario for a number of reasons, main one being he isn't trying to sell this, he is writing a how-to guide for those that want to do it on their own.
Plus there's more than one way to skin the proverbial cat... Rennkit isn't the first company to mount an electric actuator to raise a wing... matter of fact, Porsche did it themselves on other cars before Rennkit did.
I do agree with you that this isn't necessarily doing it better since it is using the same mass-produced linear actuators and is providing an alternate way to do the exact same thing, but for those that want to pay a realistic price for the parts/engineering put into it without the P-car tax.... this is good. Dave can afford to sell the kits for cheaper, much cheaper, he just doesn't want to (I personally don't blame him... capitalize on the market when there the window is open) and hasn't had a need to without any alternatives (DIYs or competing products) being on market.
If I were Dave, now would be the time to offer a DIY kit. Make some profit selling your mounting hardware sans actuators for 400-500$ in addition to the electrical module to those that want to have a go with their own actuators.
When the rams first went out on my car a couple of years ago, I looked into this kit and came to the same conclusion- Porsche tax is being applied, heavily, on cheap-ish parts. I dont mind paying for quality, and at $2000 per set of eRams I've got 5-6x more than an eRam kit cost in my suspension, and 3-4x in my wheels etc etc.. This is an expensive "hack" more than a complete ground-up redesign with aerospace or even motorsport grade parts. The value wasn't there for me to pay that much for an actuator that itself was developed for essentially opening and closing doors.
Without ever even seeing one of these kits in person and only knowing it used linear electric actuators, it was super easy to come up with a solution on my own that was a different way to the achieve the same effect (using an electric actuator to raise and lower a body panel). I got a little too creative with mine and tried to incorporate air-brake and adjustable aero based on speed (think McLaren 650S type of movement on wing) and found there was no electric actuator out that can react fast enough while safely holding the force that an airbrake would apply on the actuator arm. Since I couldn't do it the way I wanted to, I set it all aside and decided to go with a full cup car decklid/wing. An up-down movement to replicate factory function only is super simple to figure out with how to mount to car and blade and the only "hard" part about the whole thing is in the circuitry is getting the timing right on when to have the signal sent to the gauge cluster so there is no error light triggered.
I'm not sure why you seem so concerned with my username when the topic is the eRam system.
I'll let you be the expert on Intellectual Property Law. Interesting though that you admit actual knowledge of his patent filing and that you're using it.
And, you aren't making it better. You believe you can make it cheaper because you didn't have to design it, develop it and bring it to market.
The least you could do is refer to the man by his name. It's not necessary to insult him as well.
I'll let you be the expert on Intellectual Property Law. Interesting though that you admit actual knowledge of his patent filing and that you're using it.
And, you aren't making it better. You believe you can make it cheaper because you didn't have to design it, develop it and bring it to market.
The least you could do is refer to the man by his name. It's not necessary to insult him as well.
Plus there's more than one way to skin the proverbial cat... Rennkit isn't the first company to mount an electric actuator to raise a wing... matter of fact, Porsche did it themselves on other cars before Rennkit did.
I do agree with you that this isn't necessarily doing it better since it is using the same mass-produced linear actuators and is providing an alternate way to do the exact same thing, but for those that want to pay a realistic price for the parts/engineering put into it without the P-car tax.... this is good. Dave can afford to sell the kits for cheaper, much cheaper, he just doesn't want to (I personally don't blame him... capitalize on the market when there the window is open) and hasn't had a need to without any alternatives (DIYs or competing products) being on market.
If I were Dave, now would be the time to offer a DIY kit. Make some profit selling your mounting hardware sans actuators for 400-500$ in addition to the electrical module to those that want to have a go with their own actuators.
02-28-2018, 04:39 PM
#30
Three Wheelin'
Ok, I misspoke. The main reason why IPL doesn't come into play in this scenario is because there is no approved patent application. Rennkit is patent pending, and has been for at least a couple of years now. I'll be surprised if it goes beyond that given that it is a conglomeration of parts from other sources to function in a way that already exists in the market- it's an adaption, not an innovation.
It's cool that there has been an option out there, and if Rennkit wasn't charging 10x cost on each unit sold I doubt anyone would care to try and come up with their own solutions. Competition makes the market stronger, either by correcting overpricing, or by forcing innovation to justify the higher costs.
It's cool that there has been an option out there, and if Rennkit wasn't charging 10x cost on each unit sold I doubt anyone would care to try and come up with their own solutions. Competition makes the market stronger, either by correcting overpricing, or by forcing innovation to justify the higher costs.
