2007 997.1 No start - No crank
10-24-2017, 03:02 PM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
2007 997.1 No start - No crank
Had a couple of times (once at the dealer for inspection) where the key turn would not result in any cranking. After a few tries (giving the appearance of a possible clutch switch issue) it would start. In the middle of this I replaced the battery as it was tired.
Happened 3X total, with the third time being the last. Luckily it's a MT, so a couple of Zam drivers helped me push start it and got me home without a tow.
Reading about the issue, I have seen 5 things:
1. Starter
2. Starter wire
3. Clutch Switch
4. Battery
5. Ignition switch component
The battery is brand new and everything fires up & the cranking was fast and normal prior to it not turning at all. I will check voltage, but I am not expecting any surprises there since 2 of the 3 no starts were on the old battery.
I have pulled the clutch switch wires and jumped them together with no change in the problem (confirmed they were jumped by un-jumping them and seeing the Engage Clutch message on the dash).
I am about to test the starter wire (looking for a bit more detail on that test) since I have seen reports of issues with that wiring harness and the connection points becoming corroded. Engine "looks" clean, so I am not suspecting that, but you know the way things work sometimes.
If I show current to that wire, then I am ordering a starter, unless anyone has any suggestions for me.
Thanks,
Ed
Happened 3X total, with the third time being the last. Luckily it's a MT, so a couple of Zam drivers helped me push start it and got me home without a tow.
Reading about the issue, I have seen 5 things:
1. Starter
2. Starter wire
3. Clutch Switch
4. Battery
5. Ignition switch component
The battery is brand new and everything fires up & the cranking was fast and normal prior to it not turning at all. I will check voltage, but I am not expecting any surprises there since 2 of the 3 no starts were on the old battery.
I have pulled the clutch switch wires and jumped them together with no change in the problem (confirmed they were jumped by un-jumping them and seeing the Engage Clutch message on the dash).
I am about to test the starter wire (looking for a bit more detail on that test) since I have seen reports of issues with that wiring harness and the connection points becoming corroded. Engine "looks" clean, so I am not suspecting that, but you know the way things work sometimes.
If I show current to that wire, then I am ordering a starter, unless anyone has any suggestions for me.
Thanks,
Ed
10-24-2017, 04:39 PM
#2
Banned
Sounds like you have all the bases covered. Even with the new battery, I would want to get a voltage reading the first time it didn't start.
You've eliminated the neutral safety switch, so the only thing left would be the starter.
Don't forget to pull the leads off and have a look at their condition. A corroded positive lead to the starter or a bad ground will do the things you are talking about.
You've eliminated the neutral safety switch, so the only thing left would be the starter.
Don't forget to pull the leads off and have a look at their condition. A corroded positive lead to the starter or a bad ground will do the things you are talking about.
10-24-2017, 09:39 PM
#3
Burning Brakes
My vote is that you have a defective ignition switch. The fact that you can attempt to start the car several times and then the engine will fire off. Classic ignition switch failure. That switch has a lot of plastic in it that sees a lot of heat over its life.
10-25-2017, 01:20 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
Best way to test the wiring going to the starter is a voltage drop.
Get a meter, set it to DC volts. Put on lead on the positive post of the starter and the other lead on the positive of the battery and crank it. should not have more than .4 voltage drop
Do the same test for the negative side....one lead to the starter case and one lead to the negative battery post...looking for .4 volts or less
If both sides check out then you know its not a wiring issue to the starter or a bad ground wire somewhere
Then if you can catch the problem when its happening, put one lead of the meter on the little leg on the starer and one lead on the negative battery post
see if you have12volts then you know its the starter and not an ignition switch or starter relay because the starer is being commanded
Get a meter, set it to DC volts. Put on lead on the positive post of the starter and the other lead on the positive of the battery and crank it. should not have more than .4 voltage drop
Do the same test for the negative side....one lead to the starter case and one lead to the negative battery post...looking for .4 volts or less
If both sides check out then you know its not a wiring issue to the starter or a bad ground wire somewhere
Then if you can catch the problem when its happening, put one lead of the meter on the little leg on the starer and one lead on the negative battery post
see if you have12volts then you know its the starter and not an ignition switch or starter relay because the starer is being commanded
10-25-2017, 06:30 PM
#5
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Thanks for all the advice, I really appreciate it. Forums like these are what help me keep my 22 year old Audi S6 running well.
OK, so I went back one more time (at the behest of my Porsche Dealer SM) and confirmed the clutch switch shows Depress Clutch when wires pulled from switch and does not show that message when I use my spade ended wire rig to jump the two connections. He also was pretty certain that since all the dash lights fire up when I insert the key, and the air con shuts down as I try and start, that the ignition switch is OK. He also made mention that if it does prove to be the switch, I might need the whole assembly since he was not sure there was a separate part for 2007 MY cars (I have done that plastic piece on my 95.5 Audi S6 before, so I know it can fail). I have looked and see parts fitting up to the 2005 911's but nothing that confirms it will fit a 2007 997 TT. I will do some more looking, but feel free to stop me if I am looking for a unicorn.
I started to remove the Y pipe, air box and was about to remove the throttle body when I noticed the turbo's layout is a bit different than most of the write ups for the 997/996 starter DIY's I have read. I don't think any are for a TT specifically, just NA cars. I called the dealer back just to confirm I was going in the right direction, so I will continue removing the TB and associated hoses to get back far enough to test the wires out.
Before I do that, it looks like the oil filter housing may be in the way on a 997.1 TT, does anyone know if I need to deal with that before getting to the starter? The write ups also talk about removing the alternator bolts to get better access to the starter, but the alternator appears to be a little more left than the NA engines, so I will wait and see there.
My only other issue is rigging up a wire long enough to get back from the battery to the starter but I will figure that out. I hate just having the damn thing sit in the garage when I can tell it wants out.
I'll keep you updated. Thanks again.
Ed
OK, so I went back one more time (at the behest of my Porsche Dealer SM) and confirmed the clutch switch shows Depress Clutch when wires pulled from switch and does not show that message when I use my spade ended wire rig to jump the two connections. He also was pretty certain that since all the dash lights fire up when I insert the key, and the air con shuts down as I try and start, that the ignition switch is OK. He also made mention that if it does prove to be the switch, I might need the whole assembly since he was not sure there was a separate part for 2007 MY cars (I have done that plastic piece on my 95.5 Audi S6 before, so I know it can fail). I have looked and see parts fitting up to the 2005 911's but nothing that confirms it will fit a 2007 997 TT. I will do some more looking, but feel free to stop me if I am looking for a unicorn.
I started to remove the Y pipe, air box and was about to remove the throttle body when I noticed the turbo's layout is a bit different than most of the write ups for the 997/996 starter DIY's I have read. I don't think any are for a TT specifically, just NA cars. I called the dealer back just to confirm I was going in the right direction, so I will continue removing the TB and associated hoses to get back far enough to test the wires out.
Before I do that, it looks like the oil filter housing may be in the way on a 997.1 TT, does anyone know if I need to deal with that before getting to the starter? The write ups also talk about removing the alternator bolts to get better access to the starter, but the alternator appears to be a little more left than the NA engines, so I will wait and see there.
My only other issue is rigging up a wire long enough to get back from the battery to the starter but I will figure that out. I hate just having the damn thing sit in the garage when I can tell it wants out.
I'll keep you updated. Thanks again.
Ed
10-26-2017, 09:01 AM
#6
Burning Brakes
Thanks for all the advice, I really appreciate it. Forums like these are what help me keep my 22 year old Audi S6 running well.
OK, so I went back one more time (at the behest of my Porsche Dealer SM) and confirmed the clutch switch shows Depress Clutch when wires pulled from switch and does not show that message when I use my spade ended wire rig to jump the two connections. He also was pretty certain that since all the dash lights fire up when I insert the key, and the air con shuts down as I try and start, that the ignition switch is OK. He also made mention that if it does prove to be the switch, I might need the whole assembly since he was not sure there was a separate part for 2007 MY cars (I have done that plastic piece on my 95.5 Audi S6 before, so I know it can fail). I have looked and see parts fitting up to the 2005 911's but nothing that confirms it will fit a 2007 997 TT. I will do some more looking, but feel free to stop me if I am looking for a unicorn.
I started to remove the Y pipe, air box and was about to remove the throttle body when I noticed the turbo's layout is a bit different than most of the write ups for the 997/996 starter DIY's I have read. I don't think any are for a TT specifically, just NA cars. I called the dealer back just to confirm I was going in the right direction, so I will continue removing the TB and associated hoses to get back far enough to test the wires out.
Before I do that, it looks like the oil filter housing may be in the way on a 997.1 TT, does anyone know if I need to deal with that before getting to the starter? The write ups also talk about removing the alternator bolts to get better access to the starter, but the alternator appears to be a little more left than the NA engines, so I will wait and see there.
My only other issue is rigging up a wire long enough to get back from the battery to the starter but I will figure that out. I hate just having the damn thing sit in the garage when I can tell it wants out.
I'll keep you updated. Thanks again.
Ed
OK, so I went back one more time (at the behest of my Porsche Dealer SM) and confirmed the clutch switch shows Depress Clutch when wires pulled from switch and does not show that message when I use my spade ended wire rig to jump the two connections. He also was pretty certain that since all the dash lights fire up when I insert the key, and the air con shuts down as I try and start, that the ignition switch is OK. He also made mention that if it does prove to be the switch, I might need the whole assembly since he was not sure there was a separate part for 2007 MY cars (I have done that plastic piece on my 95.5 Audi S6 before, so I know it can fail). I have looked and see parts fitting up to the 2005 911's but nothing that confirms it will fit a 2007 997 TT. I will do some more looking, but feel free to stop me if I am looking for a unicorn.
I started to remove the Y pipe, air box and was about to remove the throttle body when I noticed the turbo's layout is a bit different than most of the write ups for the 997/996 starter DIY's I have read. I don't think any are for a TT specifically, just NA cars. I called the dealer back just to confirm I was going in the right direction, so I will continue removing the TB and associated hoses to get back far enough to test the wires out.
Before I do that, it looks like the oil filter housing may be in the way on a 997.1 TT, does anyone know if I need to deal with that before getting to the starter? The write ups also talk about removing the alternator bolts to get better access to the starter, but the alternator appears to be a little more left than the NA engines, so I will wait and see there.
My only other issue is rigging up a wire long enough to get back from the battery to the starter but I will figure that out. I hate just having the damn thing sit in the garage when I can tell it wants out.
I'll keep you updated. Thanks again.
Ed
Technical values
Preliminary work
Preliminary work for starter - manual transmission
- Disconnect battery. See: Battery\Jump Starting\Service and Repair\2706IN External Power Connection, Jump Lead Starting See: Battery\Jump Starting\Service and Repair\2706IN Electrical Emergency Release for Lid See: Battery\Service and Repair\Procedures\2706IN Work Instructions after Disconnecting the Battery
- Remove rear underbody cover.
- Disconnect ground terminal of battery and cover the terminal or battery. See: Battery\Jump Starting\Service and Repair\2706IN External Power Connection, Jump Lead Starting See: Battery\Jump Starting\Service and Repair\2706IN Electrical Emergency Release for Lid See: Battery\Service and Repair\Procedures\2706IN Work Instructions after Disconnecting the Battery
- Unhook the parking-brake cable from the left side behind the parking-brake lever and push it back into the parking-brake cable guide.
Removing cover for parking-brake cable
2.2. Slide the plastic cover back and remove it by pulling it upwards. 2.3. Unhook the left parking-brake cable and slide out through the guide.
Unhooking parking-brake cable
- Remove the rear cover for the transmission.
- Unscrew the two fastening screws -1- for the cross member and remove the cross member.
Releasing cross member and coolant lines
- Unscrew the two fastening screws -2- for the coolant line brackets on the underside of the transmission.
- Unscrew the third fastening screw -2- (behind the left drive shaft in direction of travel -3- ), for the coolant line bracket.
Unscrewing fastening screw for coolant lines
- Pull coolant lines downwards and in doing so check for sufficient clearance.
- Unscrew the two fastening screws for the shutoff valve bracket -1- .
Fastening screws for shutoff valve bracket
- Using a screwdriver, prise the coolant lines out of the transmission bracket (in direction of travel to rear). >> The lines can now be easily pulled downwards and to the side.
Prising off coolant lines
Removing starter
Removing starter - manual transmission
Installation position
DANGER
Danger of fatal injury, burns and fire damage.
- Although the operating voltage of the vehicle electrical system is only 12 volts, there is a danger of burns and risk of fire damage because of the battery's high energy content. A short circuit can result in extremely high currents!
- Remove the protection cap on the solenoid switch and unscrew and remove the fastening nuts for line terminal 30 -1- , terminal 50 -2- on the starter.
Pulling off protection cap on solenoid switch
Information
Use the following 3/8-inch tool to remove the upper fastening screw on the starter: two short extensions, universal joint, hexagon socket-wrench insert a/f 15 or Torx, cross handle or ratchet.
Information
Use the following 3/8-inch tool to remove the upper fastening screw on the starter: two short extensions, universal joint, hexagon socket-wrench insert a/f 15 or Torx, cross handle or ratchet.
- Unscrew upper fastening screw on the starter -3- .
Unscrewing fastening screw
- Unscrew lower fastening screw -3- .
- Remove the starter from the transmission and turn it so that the solenoid switch is facing towards the halfshaft. Remove starter in a downward direction.
DANGER
Danger of fatal injury, burns and fire damage.
- Although the operating voltage of the vehicle electrical system is only 12 volts, there is a danger of burns and risk of fire damage because of the battery's high energy content. A short circuit can result in extremely high currents!
- Pull off the cap on the starter.
Pulling off cap on starter
- Undo the two fastening nuts -1, 2- on the starter and remove both electric lines on the starter.
Removing lines on the starter
Use a 3/8-inch tool to loosen the fastening screws.
- Upper fastening screw:
- Lower fastening screw:
- Cut off the tucker stud -x- (if one is used) in front of the starter using large side cutters.
Removing tucker stud
- Press coolant hoses to one side, rotate the starter and remove it carefully by pulling it downwards between the transmission and body.
Removing starter
Installing starter
Installing starter - manual transmission
- Position starter on the transmission and secure in place with the two fastening screws -3- .-- Tightening torque: 46 Nm (34 ftlb.)
Securing starter
- Fit B+ line from battery and B+ line from engine B+ connection point to terminal 30 (M8 nut) -1- on the solenoid switch and secure it. Secure line for terminal 50 (M6 nut) -2- to solenoid switch.-- Tightening torque: 18 Nm (13 ftlb.)
Connecting electric lines to starter
-- Tightening torque: 6.5 Nm (5.0 ftlb.)
- Push protective cap over the solenoid switch and engage on the B+ line.
- Press coolant hoses to one side and slide the starter carefully between the transmission and body, rotate it and insert it into the opening in the transmission.
- Secure the starter using the fastening screws -1- .
Securing starter on automatic transmission
- Slide the B+ line through the cover, plug electric contacts into the starter and secure using the fastening nuts -1, 2- .
Securing electric lines to starter
- Slide the cap fully onto the starter.
Subsequent work for starter - automatic transmission
- Place the shutoff valve bracket -1- onto the automatic transmission and secure with the fastening screws.
Securing shutoff valve bracket
- Lift the coolant lines over the bracket on the transmission and secure the coolant lines using the fastening screw -2- at the side of the transmission (next to the drive shaft -3- ).
Positioning coolant lines on transmission
- Slide the coolant lines in the transmission bracket area back and secure with the two fastening screws -2- .
Routing and securing coolant lines
- Position the cross member and secure with the two fastening screws -1- .-- Tightening torque: 65 Nm (48 ftlb.)
- Slide the parking-brake cable into the guide and hook it onto the parking-brake lever.
- Slide in the cover in the centre console and secure using the four fastening screws.
- Place rubber mat into the tray and close the oddments tray.
- Install rear underbody cover for the transmission.
- Connect ground terminal on the battery and perform work instructions after disconnecting the battery. See: Battery\Jump Starting\Service and Repair\2706IN External Power Connection, Jump Lead Starting See: Battery\Jump Starting\Service and Repair\2706IN Electrical Emergency Release for Lid See: Battery\Service and Repair\Procedures\2706IN Work Instructions after Disconnecting the Battery
- Remove rear underbody cover.
- Connect the battery. See: Battery\Jump Starting\Service and Repair\2706IN External Power Connection, Jump Lead Starting See: Battery\Jump Starting\Service and Repair\2706IN Electrical Emergency Release for Lid See: Battery\Service and Repair\Procedures\2706IN Work Instructions after Disconnecting the Battery
Here is step by step how to get out the starter for MT and Auto car
10-26-2017, 12:25 PM
#7
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Hmmm...... so the SM telling me the starter was on the top of the engine behind the TB stuff was wrong?
The starter is on the bottom of the engine? Holy cow, I need to do some more research. Anyone have any pictures of the key parts of silver's write up? The only manual I have is more of a parts diagram, I have used Bentley's online stuff for my Audi but I have not found something comparable for Porsche. I don't mind paying for something if anyone has any suggestions.
Ed
The starter is on the bottom of the engine? Holy cow, I need to do some more research. Anyone have any pictures of the key parts of silver's write up? The only manual I have is more of a parts diagram, I have used Bentley's online stuff for my Audi but I have not found something comparable for Porsche. I don't mind paying for something if anyone has any suggestions.
Ed
Trending Topics
10-26-2017, 02:38 PM
#8
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Rennlist Member
Rennlist
Site Sponsor
Ed, you have received wrong info from the SM.
07Silver gave you a gift. Think 964, 993, 996TT/GT2/GT3 and 997TT. The starter is removed from the bottom.
The factory PIWIS has these illustrations. Jack your car up, you will find the starter right above your CV/stub axle.
07Silver gave you a gift. Think 964, 993, 996TT/GT2/GT3 and 997TT. The starter is removed from the bottom.
The factory PIWIS has these illustrations. Jack your car up, you will find the starter right above your CV/stub axle.
10-26-2017, 03:28 PM
#9
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Son of a gun. I stopped after getting the TB pipe and airbox out of the car because what I was seeing didn't jive with any of the write-ups I have. Even the alternator location and the oil filter housing gave me pause.
OK, I will push it over to my other garage and get it in the air.
I need to find a good shop manual like I have for my Audis. I clicked one of the links in silver's write up and I don't think I can afford paying $160/month for ALLDATA, so I hope there is someplace I can find a repair manual for a reasonable amount (I have not looked seriously yet).
Thanks for confirming, and thank you silver for saving me some unnecessary work (I did order the E-Torx set that seem to be very popular on the Porsche - Audi was all Torx/Hex/Allen). I need a bigger tool chest!
Ed
OK, I will push it over to my other garage and get it in the air.
I need to find a good shop manual like I have for my Audis. I clicked one of the links in silver's write up and I don't think I can afford paying $160/month for ALLDATA, so I hope there is someplace I can find a repair manual for a reasonable amount (I have not looked seriously yet).
Thanks for confirming, and thank you silver for saving me some unnecessary work (I did order the E-Torx set that seem to be very popular on the Porsche - Audi was all Torx/Hex/Allen). I need a bigger tool chest!
Ed
10-26-2017, 04:59 PM
#10
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Kevin & Silver, I just wanted to say thanks for all the help. Definitely a frustration saver! I did some searching using the models you listed Kevin, and low and behold I found a doc that looks like Silver's doc with the drawings for the 997 TT. Wow was I nowhere near where the thing actually resides.
Going out to put the top of the engine back and get it up in the air so I can complete my tests and figure out where I need to go next: ignition switch or starter.
Thanks again, I'll let you know how it turns out.
Ed
Going out to put the top of the engine back and get it up in the air so I can complete my tests and figure out where I need to go next: ignition switch or starter.
Thanks again, I'll let you know how it turns out.
Ed
10-26-2017, 06:37 PM
#11
Burning Brakes
Glad I could help. For some reason when I copy and paste the instructions it did not post the pictures and I could not figure out how to get them to stay on a post.
Also I believe you can buy alldata info for whatever car you are working on/have so you dont have to pay monthly.
Just a flat fee for your 07 997TT...but the information is no where near what the dealers have.
If you ever need other stuff just shoot me a pm I can get you information from alldata or identifix....if they dont have it I have a buddy that works at a Porsche dealer and he can get it for me
Also I believe you can buy alldata info for whatever car you are working on/have so you dont have to pay monthly.
Just a flat fee for your 07 997TT...but the information is no where near what the dealers have.
If you ever need other stuff just shoot me a pm I can get you information from alldata or identifix....if they dont have it I have a buddy that works at a Porsche dealer and he can get it for me
10-26-2017, 10:50 PM
#12
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Well, well, well. Put the airbox & Y-pipe back on, closed the lid. Went to the other garage to get my '08 S6 off the Quickjack, came back and just for kicks & giggles, tried to start the car... and... it fired right up.
Huh?
Turned it off, fired right up again. I am a bit confused. I will still do the voltage tests and see if they tell me anything, I also found an extensive thread on the 996 forum about the relay (and lots of comments on the alternator - starter cable) with a great deal of testing using lights and meters and bypassing the relay and more. I have to back and read it carefully and make my own list to use.
I have to head out to play some hockey, maybe some banging and smashing will knock something loose in my head and help me with this, then again maybe not, but I always feel better after a game.
Ed
Huh?
Turned it off, fired right up again. I am a bit confused. I will still do the voltage tests and see if they tell me anything, I also found an extensive thread on the 996 forum about the relay (and lots of comments on the alternator - starter cable) with a great deal of testing using lights and meters and bypassing the relay and more. I have to back and read it carefully and make my own list to use.
I have to head out to play some hockey, maybe some banging and smashing will knock something loose in my head and help me with this, then again maybe not, but I always feel better after a game.
Ed
10-28-2017, 05:34 PM
#14
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I have not gotten to the job yet, but looking at the doc, I am guessing it's a 2 hour job max. The one bolt looks like a pain.
The shop will probably quote 3 or up (I have seen $600 - $1800)
Someone who has actually gone through this would be a better source.
Ed
The shop will probably quote 3 or up (I have seen $600 - $1800)
Someone who has actually gone through this would be a better source.
Ed
10-31-2017, 08:48 AM
#15
Burning Brakes
Book time calls for 2.8 hours...so lets call it 3 hours...auto car will take a little longer since you have to release the e brake cables. but with a lift and the right tools replaced in under two hours