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Will it just be for the dsc sport with stock dampners, or dsc sport with tractiv dampners.
I'd be interested in seeing more on that full setup vs the oem + dsc as it seems like their are a lot of user reviews for it already.
This feature will not include the Tractive dampers. While even we are not sure of all the specifics, it seems as though they will be doing a side-by-side comparison of the DSC module vs. the factory PASM.
We are exploring opportunities for doing a feature with the DSC + Tractive package and hope to have something materialized soon. We'll keep you updated on the progress!
This feature will not include the Tractive dampers. While even we are not sure of all the specifics, it seems as though they will be doing a side-by-side comparison of the DSC module vs. the factory PASM.
We are exploring opportunities for doing a feature with the DSC + Tractive package and hope to have something materialized soon. We'll keep you updated on the progress!
Thanks for the info. Would be great to see a DSC+Tractive vs JRZ/Moton/Ohlin
comparison. As the buyers for that setup probably are likely considering the JRZ/Moton/Ohlin types of setups as well as those have been proven over many years of racing etc.
Would be great to see a DSC+Tractive vs JRZ/Moton/Ohlin comparison. As the buyers for that setup probably are likely considering the JRZ/Moton/Ohlin types of setups as well as those have been proven over many years of racing etc.
Such a comparison sounds like a lot of fun to conduct. However, in terms of lap time, it would be very difficult if not impossible to conduct fairly being that manual adjustable shocks will perform only as good as the settings of the adjustment ***** by the person who is making the adjustment decisions for the conditions for that day. So the results of such a comparison might not represent the true potential of each brand. And this is assuming that all cars in the comparison have identical tires, ride height, springs, sway bar settings, alignment, weight, engine power, etc.
Even in premier racing series, the same make/model of car that are suppose to be identically prepared according the rule book, driven by top tier pro drivers, besides luck, the results pretty much comes down to the car's setup for that particular event, not so much what brand of shock. This is probably why I have not seen such a comparison in this industry. I think the closest thing to such a comparison would be to watch sanctioning body organized races with same make/model of car with different shocks to compile the qualifying time and quickest time set during each race and average those numbers over a period of time to determine the quickest combination.
In terms of overall versatility, DSC with Tractive or Bilstein(PASM/Damptronic) definitively have the advantage over manually adjustable shock being that the dynamic range of damping is greater(especially true for Tractive), stiffness is added at the corner of the car where it is needed when it is needed relative to the car/driver's inputs, and there's no coming into pit to have adjustment ***** turned in order make a change. For street use, one could adjust a track-oriented manual adjustable shock fitted with say for example 500-lb spring to be softer but it will never be as compliant and smooth over bumps as DSC with 350-lb springs, which can produce the stiffness equivalent of 700-lb springs when the stiffness is needed.
As for potential buyers of shocks, I feel that it comes down to does the buyer want electronic or manual. A rough analogy for building a street rod: should I go with electronic fuel injection and tune with software or go with carburetor and tune by turning setscrews and swapping jets? I used this analogy because the street rod industry have decades of relative data/trend between the use of electronic and manual technology, and over the decades the market has proven to be equally strong for both technologies to fill the each buyer's desire.
Last edited by DSC Sport; 06-05-2015 at 06:59 PM.
Reason: corrected mispelled words
Hello, I have always been a fan of buying the best shocks I can afford for my cars, like my Koni Race 28-Series and MCA Gold etc. They are as you put it, "street rod" style and manual. They have also delivered superb results in every way including competitions across the years. Shocks are a better bang for buck spend to go fast than most other mods in my humble view.
i am really quite intrigued by this electronic option. I have a 997.1 GT3 with upgraded but manual shocks and much larger springs, so PASM is disabled. That is the reference car for the questions below.
So,
1. Does the use of your tractive electronic dampers mean you can reduce the spring rate (from say one upgrade to suited to slicks) and the shock somehow covers that aspect of handling, when tracking the car and it will work as well or better on both track and street occasion?
2. How are the shocks mated to the spring, if you wanted to use larger springs with them, so that the car is well set up for track and liveable on the street?
3. what rate of spring is sold with the damper, vs the stock ones, as options?
Thank you.
Regards
MC968CS
Last edited by MC 968CS; 06-05-2015 at 07:10 PM.
Reason: typos
Hello, I ve always been a fan of buying the best shocks I can afford for my cars, like my Koni Race 28-Series and MCA Gold etc. They are as you put it, "street rod" style and manual. They have also delivered superb results in every way including competitions across the years. Shocks are a better bang for buck spend to go fast than most other mods in my humble view.
i am really quite intrigued by this electronic option. I have a 997.1 GT3 with upgraded but manual shocks and much larger springs, so PASM is disabled. That is the reference car for the questions below.
So,
1. Does the use of your tractive electronic dampers mean you can reduce the spring rate (from say one upgrade to suited to slicks) and the shock somehow covers that aspect of handling, when tracking the car and it will work as well or better?
2. How are the shocks mated to the spring, if you wanted to use larger springs with them, so that the car is well set up for track and liveable on the street?
3. what rate of spring is sold with the damper, vs the stock ones, as options?
thank you.
Regards
MC968CS
Hello MC968CS,
I will answer your good questions before I sign out for the weekend.
1. Does the use of your tractive electronic dampers mean you can reduce the spring rate (from say one upgrade to suited to slicks) and the shock somehow covers that aspect of handling, when tracking the car and it will work as well or better? Yes, we can produce the stiffness equivalent to that of stiffer spring via the electronically controlled damper. How much stiffer would depend on the dynamic range of the damper. In the case of Tractive, their patented DDA valve has huge range.
2. How are the shocks mated to the spring, if you wanted to use larger springs with them, so that the car is well set up for track and liveable on the street? The springs are mated to the shock in the same manner as any coilover shock using an upper hat and lower perch. We are using 60mm ID springs. Custom hats and perches can be made to use 70mm ID springs but the larger diameter spring will decrease clearance to run wider than OEM size front tires. You could go longer length on the main spring and lose the tender springs in order to have more length of spring wire for better street comfort, instead of going with wider springs. However, we don't see a need to go for wider springs since our standard spring rate selection for Tractive DDA coilovers produces a supple yet well controlled street ride.
3. what rate of spring is sold with the damper, vs the stock ones, as options? For the 997.1 and .2 GT3 the Tractive DDA coilover kit will come standard with 400/700-lb springs. As stated above, this is a very streetable setup and will achieve the effective stiffness of ~700/1100 when peak stiffness is required. We have fitted also custom spring rates of 800/900 and 1400/1400 on full-time race cars. We can offer spring rates from 350-1500 for custom application upon request.
Pleasure to answer your questions. Here is an image of the Tractive DDA 997GT3 coilover kit.
Trying to install the 3-axis accelerometer on a friend's 997.1 now and missing the wiring diagram for that... can anyone shed a light please? (Normally I realize there's a wiring diagram with the kit but curiously it's missing from our shipment...)
Specifically, where do you guys get the signal and which wire splices into where? Thanks in advance!!
Trying to install the 3-axis accelerometer on a friend's 997.1 now and missing the wiring diagram for that... can anyone shed a light please? (Normally I realize there's a wiring diagram with the kit but curiously it's missing from our shipment...)
Specifically, where do you guys get the signal and which wire splices into where? Thanks in advance!!
Trying to install the 3-axis accelerometer on a friend's 997.1 now and missing the wiring diagram for that... can anyone shed a light please? (Normally I realize there's a wiring diagram with the kit but curiously it's missing from our shipment...)
Specifically, where do you guys get the signal and which wire splices into where? Thanks in advance!!
Here are the steps for installing 3-axis Accelerometer on 997.1 cars(Except Turbo and GT2. 997.1 Turbo and 997.1 GT2 are factory equipped with 3-axis accelerometer. All other 997.1 models have 2-axis).
1. Remove rear carpeting that covers the ECU mounting plate.
2. Remove the three nuts that holds the passenger side plate. A 10mm socket and ratchet is required.
3. Flip the plate over to expose the ECU and wiring.
4. Study the drawing and understand where to connect the four wires.
4.1 Label the ECU connectors from A to E as per the factory manual.
5. Identify the CAN(Control Area Network) wires of connector D. The CAN wires are the twisted pair of wires.
6. Make the connections for CAN Hi, CAN Lo, and Power wires as per the drawing in step #4 using "T-junction" method. Soldering of the junctions is preferred. Insulate the connections with electrical tape.
7. Install the accelerometer in the location shown using the supplied high strength double-sided tape. The accelerometer is calibrated to be most accurate when installed in the middle of the car. This is the ideal location. Note: The side of the accelerometer with the wires must be facing toward the front of the car. The side of the accelerometer with the phillips screw head must be facing toward the ground.
8. Secure the wires with nylon zip ties to prevent chafing.
Thanks, that's a great reply. What an interesting concept this is. A friend locally is about to install these....I am going to have to ask for a ride and impressions......then I may have some extemely good "old style" shocks for sale......
Originally Posted by DSC Sport
Hello MC968CS,
I will answer your good questions before I sign out for the weekend.
1. Does the use of your tractive electronic dampers mean you can reduce the spring rate (from say one upgrade to suited to slicks) and the shock somehow covers that aspect of handling, when tracking the car and it will work as well or better? Yes, we can produce the stiffness equivalent to that of stiffer spring via the electronically controlled damper. How much stiffer would depend on the dynamic range of the damper. In the case of Tractive, their patented DDA valve has huge range.
2. How are the shocks mated to the spring, if you wanted to use larger springs with them, so that the car is well set up for track and liveable on the street? The springs are mated to the shock in the same manner as any coilover shock using an upper hat and lower perch. We are using 60mm ID springs. Custom hats and perches can be made to use 70mm ID springs but the larger diameter spring will decrease clearance to run wider than OEM size front tires. You could go longer length on the main spring and lose the tender springs in order to have more length of spring wire for better street comfort, instead of going with wider springs. However, we don't see a need to go for wider springs since our standard spring rate selection for Tractive DDA coilovers produces a supple yet well controlled street ride.
3. what rate of spring is sold with the damper, vs the stock ones, as options? For the 997.1 and .2 GT3 the Tractive DDA coilover kit will come standard with 400/700-lb springs. As stated above, this is a very streetable setup and will achieve the effective stiffness of ~700/1100 when peak stiffness is required. We have fitted also custom spring rates of 800/900 and 1400/1400 on full-time race cars. We can offer spring rates from 350-1500 for custom application upon request.
Pleasure to answer your questions. Here is an image of the Tractive DDA 997GT3 coilover kit.
Check out the video below to see Michael Levitas discuss the technology and motorsport applications of the DSC Sport/Tractive DDA combination with Pirelli World Challenge GT Class top contender, Michael Lewis.
We just got a large shipment of Tractive DDA coilovers for Porsche models 986/996/987/997/991 - High quality photos to come soon!
Ok, have been so out of it. Now i see this uber cool thread!
I got a DSC for my 997.1 last year (Tom = best customer service ever). I've posted elsewhere on RL but suffice to say, am in love with it, and it has really made a huge improvement over bumpy surfaces. Awesome bang for buck ratio on this product, and an absolute no brainer for 997.1's IMO.
Disclaimer: i'm largely retired from tracking, for various personal reasons, so my car is almost exclusively a street car now. I have no laptimes to compare, but over bumpy roads at speed, the DSC setup gives MUCH more confidence than OE.
So now i'm really interested in the Tractive DDA's. have seen the youtube product videos, and wow, looks really impressive.
Here's my question though: given that the Tractive's seem to have been developed for racing applications first, how much of a benefit will I actually feel on the street? in principle, i can understand that there should be some benefit over the OE shocks, simply because the DDA's will react quicker and have a broader adjustment range.
But as i'm less interested in going faster at this point, and more in making the GT3 a bit more livable at low speed, i'm concerned that the DDA's may be a bit much to pay for relatively less improvement in the area i'm looking for.
The DSC was a no brainer because the price of entry was quite low. The DDA's of course are understandably much more expensive, so i'm trying to get a sense of whether they're overkill for my use, or whether they're the right answer to (my) wrong question.
(please don't flame me for being a p*ssy and not tracking my GT3 much anymore though )
Ok, have been so out of it. Now i see this uber cool thread!
I got a DSC for my 997.1 last year (Tom = best customer service ever). I've posted elsewhere on RL but suffice to say, am in love with it, and it has really made a huge improvement over bumpy surfaces. Awesome bang for buck ratio on this product, and an absolute no brainer for 997.1's IMO.
Disclaimer: i'm largely retired from tracking, for various personal reasons, so my car is almost exclusively a street car now. I have no laptimes to compare, but over bumpy roads at speed, the DSC setup gives MUCH more confidence than OE.
So now i'm really interested in the Tractive DDA's. have seen the youtube product videos, and wow, looks really impressive.
Here's my question though: given that the Tractive's seem to have been developed for racing applications first, how much of a benefit will I actually feel on the street? in principle, i can understand that there should be some benefit over the OE shocks, simply because the DDA's will react quicker and have a broader adjustment range.
But as i'm less interested in going faster at this point, and more in making the GT3 a bit more livable at low speed, i'm concerned that the DDA's may be a bit much to pay for relatively less improvement in the area i'm looking for.
The DSC was a no brainer because the price of entry was quite low. The DDA's of course are understandably much more expensive, so i'm trying to get a sense of whether they're overkill for my use, or whether they're the right answer to (my) wrong question.
(please don't flame me for being a p*ssy and not tracking my GT3 much anymore though )
TIA for the feedback!
Thank you very much, hesperus! Glad you found this thread.
Tractive DDA shocks bring racing level performance to a street car only when the driver needs or wants this level of stiffness. For street, the supple and controlled ride is a result of maximizing shock stroke paired with more stable springs and superior electronic management that will soften the "nose" of road bumps and stabilize the vehicle against oscillations before it happens. The dynamic range between street comfort and race track performance is made even more flexible to the individual user preference with the tunable software that we will release later this year. The standard mapping is already very well developed but you can personalize it for your exact usage, preference, and your local roads. A way to depict the dynamic range of Tractive DDA is to think of the PASM modes as "3" for Normal and "8" for Sport. The "3" and "8" are pretty much fixed values. With DSC and OEM PASM shocks you have a dynamic range varying between "1" to "10" based on the speed and other inputs for the driving situation. Tractive DDA's range is "-5 to 15". In addition to the much wider range there is no "bump rubber effect" and the reaction time to command is 17x faster than OEM PASM to shape damping curve to stabilize vehicle oscillation; soften nose of the compression then ramp up as load increases and tailor rebound to smoothen vehicle weight transfer, which results in reduction of shocking to tire contact patch, which results in more grip. Tractive DDA shocks maintain a guide clearance of 0.01mm, this means virtually zero front toe deflection as a result of shaft play on MacPherson Strut type suspension. As for durability, each design of Tractive DDA shock has to pass a life cycle test on a large drum dyno for the duration of 2.4 million cycles at 100 degrees Celsius. After the test the damping curve has to be within 15% of the original damping curve. The DDA valve has been tested with 18 million cycles by an OEM manufacture and approved by them for production. Even the details down to the ZnNi coating for the outer casing is tested to conform to ASTM B117 specification. This means no white rust within 120 hours and red rust within 700 hours of high pressure salt spray test.
Thank you very much, hesperus! Glad you found this thread.
Tractive DDA shocks bring racing level performance to a street car only when the driver needs or wants this level of stiffness. For street, the supple and controlled ride is a result of maximizing shock stroke paired with more stable springs and superior electronic management that will soften the "nose" of road bumps and stabilize the vehicle against oscillations before it happens. The dynamic range between street comfort and race track performance is made even more flexible to the individual user preference with the tunable software that we will release later this year. The standard mapping is already very well developed but you can personalize it for your exact usage, preference, and your local roads. A way to depict the dynamic range of Tractive DDA is to think of the PASM modes as "3" for Normal and "8" for Sport. The "3" and "8" are pretty much fixed values. With DSC and OEM PASM shocks you have a dynamic range varying between "1" to "10" based on the speed and other inputs for the driving situation. Tractive DDA's range is "-5 to 15". In addition to the much wider range there is no "bump rubber effect" and the reaction time to command is 17x faster than OEM PASM to shape damping curve to stabilize vehicle oscillation; soften nose of the compression then ramp up as load increases and tailor rebound to smoothen vehicle weight transfer, which results in reduction of shocking to tire contact patch, which results in more grip. Tractive DDA shocks maintain a guide clearance of 0.01mm, this means virtually zero front toe deflection as a result of shaft play on MacPherson Strut type suspension. As for durability, each design of Tractive DDA shock has to pass a life cycle test on a large drum dyno for the duration of 2.4 million cycles at 100 degrees Celsius. After the test the damping curve has to be within 15% of the original damping curve. The DDA valve has been tested with 18 million cycles by an OEM manufacture and approved by them for production. Even the details down to the ZnNi coating for the outer casing is tested to conform to ASTM B117 specification. This means no white rust within 120 hours and red rust within 700 hours of high pressure salt spray test.
06-05-2015, 01:39 PM
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