"Interesting" first track experience with the GT3 (with pics!)
08-22-2014, 05:46 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
And +1 for alignment check.
08-22-2014, 06:03 PM
#32
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Guys, thanks so much for the words of encouragement and advice. Sounds like first order of business is a good alighmnet and corner balance and new track worthy street tires like the rs3 or mpss. I obviously made a wrong assumption by assuming the car's set up was proper just because the car felt great on the street! Need to invest in a bar and bucket's as well so I can run a proper harness.
08-22-2014, 06:04 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
Scott,
From a setup perspective, the front is compressing way too much in the second photo. I am guessing the front bar is either set to full soft or one from full soft. If the rear bar is full stiff or you have a GT2 rear bar then its a tail wagger at grip limit. If you're not going to do any suspension mods simply just stiffening the front bar will reduce body roll and chances of spinning the car. It'll have some push but I'd rather have push than to be loose if I wasn't going to do a track setup. The third photo shows there's very little negative camber in the front, so that tells me when you start picking up the pace the car will go from entry understeer to exit oversteer. When a car is setup right there's a very fine line between spinning and not spinning. On a very loose car TC(Traction Control) doesn't help because TC is not PSM.
Don't beat yourself up. We all spin and go off track. I see this kind of thing all the time, in many cases its not the driver, its the setup on the car. Many people just couldn't identify the source of the issue and blame themselves. I'll put it this way, often times even pro drivers can't save a badly setup car so they are force themselves to drive slower(below the grip limit of the car) finish a race.
In regard to tires, I'd suggest street tires for running in Green or Blue run groups. Michelin Pilot Super Sport, Bridegstone RE11, or Hankook RS3 are all great "learning tires"; Learning for driver and for setup of the car at lower speeds and are much easier to control when the car is out of shape than stickier track tires. These tires go plenty fast for Green and Blue students. IMHO, R-compound tires are not necessary in Green/Blue group, they could mask habits that will be harder to fix later on(driver and car).
From a setup perspective, the front is compressing way too much in the second photo. I am guessing the front bar is either set to full soft or one from full soft. If the rear bar is full stiff or you have a GT2 rear bar then its a tail wagger at grip limit. If you're not going to do any suspension mods simply just stiffening the front bar will reduce body roll and chances of spinning the car. It'll have some push but I'd rather have push than to be loose if I wasn't going to do a track setup. The third photo shows there's very little negative camber in the front, so that tells me when you start picking up the pace the car will go from entry understeer to exit oversteer. When a car is setup right there's a very fine line between spinning and not spinning. On a very loose car TC(Traction Control) doesn't help because TC is not PSM.
Don't beat yourself up. We all spin and go off track. I see this kind of thing all the time, in many cases its not the driver, its the setup on the car. Many people just couldn't identify the source of the issue and blame themselves. I'll put it this way, often times even pro drivers can't save a badly setup car so they are force themselves to drive slower(below the grip limit of the car) finish a race.
In regard to tires, I'd suggest street tires for running in Green or Blue run groups. Michelin Pilot Super Sport, Bridegstone RE11, or Hankook RS3 are all great "learning tires"; Learning for driver and for setup of the car at lower speeds and are much easier to control when the car is out of shape than stickier track tires. These tires go plenty fast for Green and Blue students. IMHO, R-compound tires are not necessary in Green/Blue group, they could mask habits that will be harder to fix later on(driver and car).
I also had the misfortune to be in the passenger seat of my 996.2 GT3 while (reluctantly) letting someone else drive my car (which had the rear bar set stiff) to spin onto I680E from the off ramp and ending up sideways under the overpass with an 18 wheeler headed straight towards me ...
The lessons I learned were, sway bar adjustment 'matters'
08-22-2014, 06:23 PM
#34
Burning Brakes
Glad you are ok and so is the car and so are the other drivers on track.
I prefer the layered approach. Get fast I. Slow stuff. Then add a faster car. Then add a rear biased car. It's too much to take in all at once.
I'd start with a spec miata. Then a spec e36. Get fast at those. Then autocross the gt3. Then track it.
I prefer the layered approach. Get fast I. Slow stuff. Then add a faster car. Then add a rear biased car. It's too much to take in all at once.
I'd start with a spec miata. Then a spec e36. Get fast at those. Then autocross the gt3. Then track it.
08-22-2014, 07:03 PM
#35
Rennlist Member
Guys, thanks so much for the words of encouragement and advice. Sounds like first order of business is a good alighmnet and corner balance and new track worthy street tires like the rs3 or mpss. I obviously made a wrong assumption by assuming the car's set up was proper just because the car felt great on the street! Need to invest in a bar and bucket's as well so I can run a proper harness.
08-22-2014, 09:36 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
For tires, my advice:
- more time on street: MPSS
- more time on track: RS3's
Please report back after you get the car sorted and have another day on track. Hopefully it will be something like "OMG, I LOVE THIS CAR!!!!"
- more time on street: MPSS
- more time on track: RS3's
Please report back after you get the car sorted and have another day on track. Hopefully it will be something like "OMG, I LOVE THIS CAR!!!!"
08-22-2014, 10:25 PM
#38
Guys, thanks so much for the words of encouragement and advice. Sounds like first order of business is a good alighmnet and corner balance and new track worthy street tires like the rs3 or mpss. I obviously made a wrong assumption by assuming the car's set up was proper just because the car felt great on the street! Need to invest in a bar and bucket's as well so I can run a proper harness.
08-22-2014, 11:22 PM
#39
Burning Brakes
There are so many variables.
I guess if you are learning street tires are fine. But there is a big problem with even the best street tire. They can't stand up to some real hot laps and eventually fall off. IMO this is 50% of why guys spin / crash whatever in the upper levels. As soon as you are good enough and are feeling good about your lines, your tires start to heat up and get squirmy. I doubt this was your problem, but it happens. This can happen if you push even a fresh set of pilot sports for 10 min in a 20 min session. Of course r comps have their downsides as well for beginners.
I guess if you are learning street tires are fine. But there is a big problem with even the best street tire. They can't stand up to some real hot laps and eventually fall off. IMO this is 50% of why guys spin / crash whatever in the upper levels. As soon as you are good enough and are feeling good about your lines, your tires start to heat up and get squirmy. I doubt this was your problem, but it happens. This can happen if you push even a fresh set of pilot sports for 10 min in a 20 min session. Of course r comps have their downsides as well for beginners.
08-22-2014, 11:33 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
I've been doing this for 25 years and don't have an issue with MPSS. Get the pressures and temps right and the tires hold up fairly well for a 20-30 min. session. Just drive within the limits of what ever tire you choose.
08-23-2014, 02:45 AM
#41
Rennlist Member
I've heard good things about Race Technik. I haven't tried them yet because their far from me.
08-23-2014, 11:59 AM
#42
I completely agree with this - just keep them in the 31-34 front, 34-37 rear zone and they are good for 25 minutes.
It is also a very good thing that they start to get slippery at the end of a session as you are getting into the grove and you can start to practice slowly but surely managing a tire and working on your driving skills of correcting a car as it starts to slide. If you go right to Hoosiers, and you start sliding, you are toast if you don't have the hands and mind to deal with it 'before' it happens - that is also why I'm a huge fan of going out in downpours on the track and practicing driving like you are in a drift competition - if you don't practice you can't get better.
08-23-2014, 04:45 PM
#44
-2.3F with zero toe - rotate struts with shims for camber, run 10mm spacer for max track
-1.8R with 2mm toe-in per side
front bar middle, GT2 rear bar soft for MPSS, Middle for R6s
front ride height dropped 5mm, rear dropped 10mm (on EO springs - more if sprung with higher rates)
Rear wing at Max, Front cup splitter
retrofit 2010 rear cooling ducts (makes a huge difference on pad wear)
install a Guard LSD if the car starts to wiggle under braking
installed all the RSS rear arms (use the extra included shims for the front)
wevo of RSS engine mounts
200 cell cats
gut the front trunk (lots of space in there to carry stuff
if you like some cabin noise the Cup cables are to die for
LWFW with proper bolt and red locktite
throttle pedal replaced with extension if you are a toe-toe down shifter with a small foot
Hans Seat / a Hans device / 1/2 rear cage and 6pt harnesses
re-valve the shocks to run in the range of 550-750 springs (+/- 100#s depending on your local roads)
weld your coolant lines
installed caliper studs (or you will re-gret it one day and ruin your track weekend)
something like the above is a good list
08-23-2014, 04:49 PM
#45
Rennlist Member
On a 7.1 GT3
-2.3F with zero toe - rotate struts with shims for camber, run 10mm spacer for max track
-1.8R with 2mm toe-in per side
front bar middle, GT2 rear bar soft for MPSS, Middle for R6s
front ride height dropped 5mm, rear dropped 10mm (on EO springs - more if sprung with higher rates)
Rear wing at Max, Front cup splitter
retrofit 2010 rear cooling ducts (makes a huge difference on pad wear)
install a Guard LSD if the car starts to wiggle under braking
installed all the RSS rear arms (use the extra included shims for the front)
wevo of RSS engine mounts
200 cell cats
gut the front trunk (lots of space in there to carry stuff
if you like some cabin noise the Cup cables are to die for
LWFW with proper bolt and red locktite
throttle pedal replaced with extension if you are a toe-toe down shifter with a small foot
Hans Seat / a Hans device / 1/2 rear cage and 6pt harnesses
re-valve the shocks to run in the range of 550-750 springs (+/- 100#s depending on your local roads)
weld your coolant lines
installed caliper studs (or you will re-gret it one day and ruin your track weekend)
something like the above is a good list
-2.3F with zero toe - rotate struts with shims for camber, run 10mm spacer for max track
-1.8R with 2mm toe-in per side
front bar middle, GT2 rear bar soft for MPSS, Middle for R6s
front ride height dropped 5mm, rear dropped 10mm (on EO springs - more if sprung with higher rates)
Rear wing at Max, Front cup splitter
retrofit 2010 rear cooling ducts (makes a huge difference on pad wear)
install a Guard LSD if the car starts to wiggle under braking
installed all the RSS rear arms (use the extra included shims for the front)
wevo of RSS engine mounts
200 cell cats
gut the front trunk (lots of space in there to carry stuff
if you like some cabin noise the Cup cables are to die for
LWFW with proper bolt and red locktite
throttle pedal replaced with extension if you are a toe-toe down shifter with a small foot
Hans Seat / a Hans device / 1/2 rear cage and 6pt harnesses
re-valve the shocks to run in the range of 550-750 springs (+/- 100#s depending on your local roads)
weld your coolant lines
installed caliper studs (or you will re-gret it one day and ruin your track weekend)
something like the above is a good list