991 GT3 Petition
02-25-2013, 04:07 PM
#76
Race Director
I love the way the 996 drives (I had a 996GT2), but I never got used to the looks or the pretty crappy interior. The 997 to me is just a "good looking" 996 with a pretty decent interior, beyond the headlights, they are basically the same car.
I've owned, tracked and raced variously an 87 911, 78 930, 88 930, 89 930, 03 GT2, 96 993 and a 2007 GT3. Porsche makes incredible, awesome, well-engineered cars that are fun to drive. I've owned a couple of M3s and corvettes too, always come back to that rear-engined liveliness.
While I don't love the PDK since you lose some visceral feel, I have driven a 991s with PDK. It's a phenomenal, fun machine like all the past porsches and is as fast as my Gt3 right out of the box.
Porsche and ferrari have basically stopped making manuals because no one buys them. Maybe it's because of all the rich posers you so enjoy denigrating, but porsche couldn't make GT3s without selling some to starbux drinking stockbrokers.
I have three questions for you:
1) have you actually driven a car with PDK on the track? It would be impossible to describe it as boring and no fun. The experience is nothing like xbox whatsoever.
2) should porsche refuse to integrate modern technology that is faster and more efficient for it's track cars?
3) If 15% of people buy porsches with manuals and GT3s are 10% of porsche sales, you are talking about major development costs for 1% to 2% of overall 911 sales - why integrate a slower technology on a trackcar to lose money?
I don't know what all the complaining is about. If you want to go SLOWER on the track and shift your own gears, porsche makes a 911S for you with a 7speed manual.
If you want porsche's best track weapon, buy a GT3 with the best/fastest tech you can get.
I've owned, tracked and raced variously an 87 911, 78 930, 88 930, 89 930, 03 GT2, 96 993 and a 2007 GT3. Porsche makes incredible, awesome, well-engineered cars that are fun to drive. I've owned a couple of M3s and corvettes too, always come back to that rear-engined liveliness.
While I don't love the PDK since you lose some visceral feel, I have driven a 991s with PDK. It's a phenomenal, fun machine like all the past porsches and is as fast as my Gt3 right out of the box.
Porsche and ferrari have basically stopped making manuals because no one buys them. Maybe it's because of all the rich posers you so enjoy denigrating, but porsche couldn't make GT3s without selling some to starbux drinking stockbrokers.
I have three questions for you:
1) have you actually driven a car with PDK on the track? It would be impossible to describe it as boring and no fun. The experience is nothing like xbox whatsoever.
2) should porsche refuse to integrate modern technology that is faster and more efficient for it's track cars?
3) If 15% of people buy porsches with manuals and GT3s are 10% of porsche sales, you are talking about major development costs for 1% to 2% of overall 911 sales - why integrate a slower technology on a trackcar to lose money?
I don't know what all the complaining is about. If you want to go SLOWER on the track and shift your own gears, porsche makes a 911S for you with a 7speed manual.
If you want porsche's best track weapon, buy a GT3 with the best/fastest tech you can get.
02-25-2013, 04:18 PM
#77
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I knew you wouldn't be able to point out where anyone other than you got offended and started name calling.
I love the way the 996 drives (I had a 996GT2), but I never got used to the looks or the pretty crappy interior. The 997 to me is just a "good looking" 996 with a pretty decent interior, beyond the headlights, they are basically the same car.
I've owned, tracked and raced variously an 87 911, 78 930, 88 930, 89 930, 03 GT2, 96 993 and a 2007 GT3. Porsche makes incredible, awesome, well-engineered cars that are fun to drive. I've owned a couple of M3s and corvettes too, always come back to that rear-engined liveliness.
While I don't love the PDK since you lose some visceral feel, I have driven a 991s with PDK. It's a phenomenal, fun machine like all the past porsches and is as fast as my Gt3 right out of the box.
Porsche and ferrari have basically stopped making manuals because no one buys them. Maybe it's because of all the rich posers you so enjoy denigrating, but porsche couldn't make GT3s without selling some to starbux drinking stockbrokers.
I have three questions for you:
1) have you actually driven a car with PDK on the track? It would be impossible to describe it as boring and no fun. The experience is nothing like xbox whatsoever.
2) should porsche refuse to integrate modern technology that is faster and more efficient for it's track cars?
3) If 15% of people buy porsches with manuals and GT3s are 10% of porsche sales, you are talking about major development costs for 1% to 2% of overall 911 sales - why integrate a slower technology on a trackcar to lose money?
I don't know what all the complaining is about. If you want to go SLOWER on the track and shift your own gears, porsche makes a 911S for you with a 7speed manual.
If you want porsche's best track weapon, buy a GT3 with the best/fastest tech you can get.
I love the way the 996 drives (I had a 996GT2), but I never got used to the looks or the pretty crappy interior. The 997 to me is just a "good looking" 996 with a pretty decent interior, beyond the headlights, they are basically the same car.
I've owned, tracked and raced variously an 87 911, 78 930, 88 930, 89 930, 03 GT2, 96 993 and a 2007 GT3. Porsche makes incredible, awesome, well-engineered cars that are fun to drive. I've owned a couple of M3s and corvettes too, always come back to that rear-engined liveliness.
While I don't love the PDK since you lose some visceral feel, I have driven a 991s with PDK. It's a phenomenal, fun machine like all the past porsches and is as fast as my Gt3 right out of the box.
Porsche and ferrari have basically stopped making manuals because no one buys them. Maybe it's because of all the rich posers you so enjoy denigrating, but porsche couldn't make GT3s without selling some to starbux drinking stockbrokers.
I have three questions for you:
1) have you actually driven a car with PDK on the track? It would be impossible to describe it as boring and no fun. The experience is nothing like xbox whatsoever.
2) should porsche refuse to integrate modern technology that is faster and more efficient for it's track cars?
3) If 15% of people buy porsches with manuals and GT3s are 10% of porsche sales, you are talking about major development costs for 1% to 2% of overall 911 sales - why integrate a slower technology on a trackcar to lose money?
I don't know what all the complaining is about. If you want to go SLOWER on the track and shift your own gears, porsche makes a 911S for you with a 7speed manual.
If you want porsche's best track weapon, buy a GT3 with the best/fastest tech you can get.
The 996 interior compared to the 997 interior is not great, but just as big of a step up from the 993 interior as was the 997, evolution at work, and should be expected with about 8 years to refine it.
1) I have driven a students PDK 997.2 on the track, and a 991 on the street when I went by the dealer for some parts. Not to mention a dual clutch EVO X, Jenks old M6 on track (didn't like the M tranny on the track) and F430 and Gallardo. I did not get a chance to drive it enough for it to get old, but the VERY common sentiment is that after the novelty wears off, it gets old and people long for manuals again. I drove a paddle shift auto corvette in the mountains, probably more fun than a manual. But on the track, no excitement. Sort of like how no matter how fast and light my Turbo is, I will not get the same visceral feel of a 996 GT3 revving to 8400 rpm (I think it was) and feeling the road as if the tires were gloves. There is still something artificial about it, the thump on upshifts (was really bad in the M6, smoother but not as seemless as people would have you believe, even in the 991).
2) If faster and more modern technology is the only concern, why is there still a 911? Clearly there is and has been more to Porsche than putting the latest gadgets in the car and leaving out the pure driving experience.
Most drivers would have been faster with PSM or some type of traction control on the 996 GT3, but there wasn't any. And we all know why.
3) Manufacturers have been influencing these sales numbers. Do you not think Porsche releasing the manual several months after the PDK was really due to issues getting it ready? Do you not think it had and bearing on the sales numbers when the gotta have it now crowd came through for the next new toy? Do you not think the dealers having PDK on the showrooms instead of manuals has any affect? Do you honestly believe they haven't been influencing the market with plans to annihilate the manual? You really couldn't believe this is fair play.
Best fastest tech? Compared to what? It's not even the fastest in Porsche's lineup. I won't be going slower than any non Cup GT3's because I'll be in a Corvette until the engine fails or a Viper rowing gears if it comes to that. Even a generation removed. And even if I were in said manual 991 S manual, most the guys that could pass me in a PDK GT3 will mostly still have manual 997 RS's and such. So chances are the PDK fanboys will still get schooled. lolololol. Driver skill not included..
I've driven side by side with grand-am cars, cups and GT-R's with similar or equal speed and not lost an inch on shifts. Posted data of me shifting with pretty much no detection by the data. Porsche has proven themselves the PDK times can be matched with the manuals at the Nurburgring. I like the challenge, you can have your few tenths handicap.
02-25-2013, 04:29 PM
#78
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So my official opinion is that to remain competitive along with the chassis changes, Porsche should have been pushing themselves to build a flat 8 instead of pushing PDK on us.
TORQUE there is no substitute.....
TORQUE there is no substitute.....
02-25-2013, 06:08 PM
#79
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
I've driven side by side with grand-am cars, cups and GT-R's with similar or equal speed and not lost an inch on shifts. Posted data of me shifting with pretty much no detection by the data. Porsche has proven themselves the PDK times can be matched with the manuals at the Nurburgring. I like the challenge, you can have your few tenths handicap.
02-25-2013, 06:10 PM
#80
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
on that we agree, although it would be even better if it were mid-engined.
02-25-2013, 06:27 PM
#81
Burning Brakes
OK, I’ll play. Here is my anti-Luddite wish list for the new GT3:
-Forget the high-revving NA, motor. Give me a 6-turbo setup (one for each cylinder) running massive boost for max top end power, and a 3000lb battery pack with electric motors on all 4 corners for bottom end grunt
-Full alphabet soup: PASM, PTV, PDCC, PDK, “P-EVERYTHING,” with redundant computers controlling each function, just like a commercial aircraft. I also want a 24/7 wireless link to Porsche’s software headquarters, for continuous downloads of bug fixes, just like Microsoft does for my home operating system
- I already know how to shift, hence my comfort level with PDK. But I also know how to steer, brake and apply the throttle, so I’m comfortable not doing any of that either. I propose a new addition to the 991 alphabet soup: PAPS – Porsche Auto Pilot System. With e-throttle, electric steering and computer-controlled brakes already in place, there’s no reason all the 991 sub-system computers can’t be choreographed by one master CPU to drive the car around a track with no human input whatsoever. If the new system is fast enough to correct a spin when a CL falls off, so much the better!
Sure, it will come as a shock to Luddites who cling to old-fashioned traditions, such as sawing back and forth on a big round wheel and pushing pedals with their feet. But the new paradigm will allow the owner to put aside those distractions and focus on more important things, such as enjoying the pure, unencumbered sensation of speed, reveling in the accomplishment of matching Pat Long’s best lap time, experiencing the glory of winning DE’s over hopelessly old fashioned cars, and posting real time updates of track exploits to share with friends
Of course, once all the Luddites die out and everybody switches over to the new paradigm, winning glory at DE’s will require having more cheater parts on one’s car, just like now.
-Forget the high-revving NA, motor. Give me a 6-turbo setup (one for each cylinder) running massive boost for max top end power, and a 3000lb battery pack with electric motors on all 4 corners for bottom end grunt
-Full alphabet soup: PASM, PTV, PDCC, PDK, “P-EVERYTHING,” with redundant computers controlling each function, just like a commercial aircraft. I also want a 24/7 wireless link to Porsche’s software headquarters, for continuous downloads of bug fixes, just like Microsoft does for my home operating system
- I already know how to shift, hence my comfort level with PDK. But I also know how to steer, brake and apply the throttle, so I’m comfortable not doing any of that either. I propose a new addition to the 991 alphabet soup: PAPS – Porsche Auto Pilot System. With e-throttle, electric steering and computer-controlled brakes already in place, there’s no reason all the 991 sub-system computers can’t be choreographed by one master CPU to drive the car around a track with no human input whatsoever. If the new system is fast enough to correct a spin when a CL falls off, so much the better!
Sure, it will come as a shock to Luddites who cling to old-fashioned traditions, such as sawing back and forth on a big round wheel and pushing pedals with their feet. But the new paradigm will allow the owner to put aside those distractions and focus on more important things, such as enjoying the pure, unencumbered sensation of speed, reveling in the accomplishment of matching Pat Long’s best lap time, experiencing the glory of winning DE’s over hopelessly old fashioned cars, and posting real time updates of track exploits to share with friends
Of course, once all the Luddites die out and everybody switches over to the new paradigm, winning glory at DE’s will require having more cheater parts on one’s car, just like now.
02-25-2013, 08:59 PM
#82
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No, the 996 abs is boosted from vaccum pressure from the engine. No abs means no boost and no stop.. i have tried it and cant lock up the brakes noatter how hard i press. Would love to learn no abs braking. Hoosier tire contingencies means I can flat spot a tire an not sweat it. Just grab one from the stash.
One more reason to respect the real pro guys who can fly with no assists, heel/toe downshifting, on edge small room for error cars at the max for lap after lap.
Of course the everything easier is making it hard to distinguish true talent anymore even in pro racing.
One more reason to respect the real pro guys who can fly with no assists, heel/toe downshifting, on edge small room for error cars at the max for lap after lap.
Of course the everything easier is making it hard to distinguish true talent anymore even in pro racing.
02-25-2013, 09:09 PM
#83
Racer
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Raleigh, NC
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OK, I’ll play. Here is my anti-Luddite wish list for the new GT3:
-Forget the high-revving NA, motor. Give me a 6-turbo setup (one for each cylinder) running massive boost for max top end power, and a 3000lb battery pack with electric motors on all 4 corners for bottom end grunt
-Full alphabet soup: PASM, PTV, PDCC, PDK, “P-EVERYTHING,” with redundant computers controlling each function, just like a commercial aircraft. I also want a 24/7 wireless link to Porsche’s software headquarters, for continuous downloads of bug fixes, just like Microsoft does for my home operating system
- I already know how to shift, hence my comfort level with PDK. But I also know how to steer, brake and apply the throttle, so I’m comfortable not doing any of that either. I propose a new addition to the 991 alphabet soup: PAPS – Porsche Auto Pilot System. With e-throttle, electric steering and computer-controlled brakes already in place, there’s no reason all the 991 sub-system computers can’t be choreographed by one master CPU to drive the car around a track with no human input whatsoever. If the new system is fast enough to correct a spin when a CL falls off, so much the better!
Sure, it will come as a shock to Luddites who cling to old-fashioned traditions, such as sawing back and forth on a big round wheel and pushing pedals with their feet. But the new paradigm will allow the owner to put aside those distractions and focus on more important things, such as enjoying the pure, unencumbered sensation of speed, reveling in the accomplishment of matching Pat Long’s best lap time, experiencing the glory of winning DE’s over hopelessly old fashioned cars, and posting real time updates of track exploits to share with friends
Of course, once all the Luddites die out and everybody switches over to the new paradigm, winning glory at DE’s will require having more cheater parts on one’s car, just like now.
-Forget the high-revving NA, motor. Give me a 6-turbo setup (one for each cylinder) running massive boost for max top end power, and a 3000lb battery pack with electric motors on all 4 corners for bottom end grunt
-Full alphabet soup: PASM, PTV, PDCC, PDK, “P-EVERYTHING,” with redundant computers controlling each function, just like a commercial aircraft. I also want a 24/7 wireless link to Porsche’s software headquarters, for continuous downloads of bug fixes, just like Microsoft does for my home operating system
- I already know how to shift, hence my comfort level with PDK. But I also know how to steer, brake and apply the throttle, so I’m comfortable not doing any of that either. I propose a new addition to the 991 alphabet soup: PAPS – Porsche Auto Pilot System. With e-throttle, electric steering and computer-controlled brakes already in place, there’s no reason all the 991 sub-system computers can’t be choreographed by one master CPU to drive the car around a track with no human input whatsoever. If the new system is fast enough to correct a spin when a CL falls off, so much the better!
Sure, it will come as a shock to Luddites who cling to old-fashioned traditions, such as sawing back and forth on a big round wheel and pushing pedals with their feet. But the new paradigm will allow the owner to put aside those distractions and focus on more important things, such as enjoying the pure, unencumbered sensation of speed, reveling in the accomplishment of matching Pat Long’s best lap time, experiencing the glory of winning DE’s over hopelessly old fashioned cars, and posting real time updates of track exploits to share with friends
Of course, once all the Luddites die out and everybody switches over to the new paradigm, winning glory at DE’s will require having more cheater parts on one’s car, just like now.
02-25-2013, 10:56 PM
#85
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
No, the 996 abs is boosted from vaccum pressure from the engine. No abs means no boost and no stop.. i have tried it and cant lock up the brakes noatter how hard i press. Would love to learn no abs braking. Hoosier tire contingencies means I can flat spot a tire an not sweat it. Just grab one from the stash.
One more reason to respect the real pro guys who can fly with no assists, heel/toe downshifting, on edge small room for error cars at the max for lap after lap.
Of course the everything easier is making it hard to distinguish true talent anymore even in pro racing.
One more reason to respect the real pro guys who can fly with no assists, heel/toe downshifting, on edge small room for error cars at the max for lap after lap.
Of course the everything easier is making it hard to distinguish true talent anymore even in pro racing.
The way I see it, threshold braking and H/T downshifting are just minor annoying distractions relative to the true driving task of slicing through a corner with the proper steering input and throttle position (which are in constant flux when you are going really fast).
Said another way, once you've perfected H/T shifting, it isn't really part of the equation anymore. All that's really required is shifting without upsetting the balance of the car. With a few exceptions (T6 at VIR), improving your H/T skills isn't really going to make you faster like, say, trailbraking at max decel all the way to the apex with the rear tires right on edge and smoothly applying just enough throttle to keep from spinning.
Good H/T shifting distinguishes good intermediate driving from beginners, but pretty much every expert on the track can H/T well. Few have the guts and skill to carry more speed INTO the corner, which is what REALLY separates.
02-25-2013, 10:57 PM
#86
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
OK, I’ll play. Here is my anti-Luddite wish list for the new GT3:
-Forget the high-revving NA, motor. Give me a 6-turbo setup (one for each cylinder) running massive boost for max top end power, and a 3000lb battery pack with electric motors on all 4 corners for bottom end grunt
-Full alphabet soup: PASM, PTV, PDCC, PDK, “P-EVERYTHING,” with redundant computers controlling each function, just like a commercial aircraft. I also want a 24/7 wireless link to Porsche’s software headquarters, for continuous downloads of bug fixes, just like Microsoft does for my home operating system
- I already know how to shift, hence my comfort level with PDK. But I also know how to steer, brake and apply the throttle, so I’m comfortable not doing any of that either. I propose a new addition to the 991 alphabet soup: PAPS – Porsche Auto Pilot System. With e-throttle, electric steering and computer-controlled brakes already in place, there’s no reason all the 991 sub-system computers can’t be choreographed by one master CPU to drive the car around a track with no human input whatsoever. If the new system is fast enough to correct a spin when a CL falls off, so much the better!
Sure, it will come as a shock to Luddites who cling to old-fashioned traditions, such as sawing back and forth on a big round wheel and pushing pedals with their feet. But the new paradigm will allow the owner to put aside those distractions and focus on more important things, such as enjoying the pure, unencumbered sensation of speed, reveling in the accomplishment of matching Pat Long’s best lap time, experiencing the glory of winning DE’s over hopelessly old fashioned cars, and posting real time updates of track exploits to share with friends
Of course, once all the Luddites die out and everybody switches over to the new paradigm, winning glory at DE’s will require having more cheater parts on one’s car, just like now.
-Forget the high-revving NA, motor. Give me a 6-turbo setup (one for each cylinder) running massive boost for max top end power, and a 3000lb battery pack with electric motors on all 4 corners for bottom end grunt
-Full alphabet soup: PASM, PTV, PDCC, PDK, “P-EVERYTHING,” with redundant computers controlling each function, just like a commercial aircraft. I also want a 24/7 wireless link to Porsche’s software headquarters, for continuous downloads of bug fixes, just like Microsoft does for my home operating system
- I already know how to shift, hence my comfort level with PDK. But I also know how to steer, brake and apply the throttle, so I’m comfortable not doing any of that either. I propose a new addition to the 991 alphabet soup: PAPS – Porsche Auto Pilot System. With e-throttle, electric steering and computer-controlled brakes already in place, there’s no reason all the 991 sub-system computers can’t be choreographed by one master CPU to drive the car around a track with no human input whatsoever. If the new system is fast enough to correct a spin when a CL falls off, so much the better!
Sure, it will come as a shock to Luddites who cling to old-fashioned traditions, such as sawing back and forth on a big round wheel and pushing pedals with their feet. But the new paradigm will allow the owner to put aside those distractions and focus on more important things, such as enjoying the pure, unencumbered sensation of speed, reveling in the accomplishment of matching Pat Long’s best lap time, experiencing the glory of winning DE’s over hopelessly old fashioned cars, and posting real time updates of track exploits to share with friends
Of course, once all the Luddites die out and everybody switches over to the new paradigm, winning glory at DE’s will require having more cheater parts on one’s car, just like now.
