How PCCBs Die (Pics)
11-10-2012, 12:25 PM
#1
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How PCCBs Die (Pics)
The topic of ceramics vs. cast iron has been debated ad infinitum here. To help others come to their own conclusion, I'm posting these pics of my own RR rotors after about 12 track events (roughly 22 days) or ~6.5k miles.
Facts to note:
The wear indicator on this rotor started showing at around event #4 and became fully abraded/exposed by #8. While overall rotor surface (other than the indicators) was still very much intact at #8, things started going downhill quickly thereafter with delamination occuring throughout the outboard side. "Fiber burn" alluded to by other posters became apparent in the exposed areas where small depressions developed into real divots.
Enough words. Let the pictures tell the story. No retouching or sharpening has been applied:
The brakes still work at this point but there's a clear grinding noise when braking hard. There's also a bad squeal in city traffic.
I have since replaced this corner with a new rotor. The LR rotor presently looks like the RR at event #7-8 (almost fully exposed wear indicators but still perfect rotor surface). The indicators have yet to become fully exposed in the front.
My two takeaways:
Hope this shines light on a practical topic that concerns so many of us here.
Facts to note:
- I use only OEM P40 pads
- Pads have always been changed at around 50% (there's been no contact between backing plate and rotor. Ever.)
- Other than 2 events with SC on, the car is always tracked with SC+TC Off without exception
- I observe at least 1 sometimes 2 cooldown laps at the end of each session
- My hometrack is known to be rough on brakes. OEM irons on well-driven GT3s typically last 4-5 events before they crack through (i.e. cracks joining adjacent drill holes)
The wear indicator on this rotor started showing at around event #4 and became fully abraded/exposed by #8. While overall rotor surface (other than the indicators) was still very much intact at #8, things started going downhill quickly thereafter with delamination occuring throughout the outboard side. "Fiber burn" alluded to by other posters became apparent in the exposed areas where small depressions developed into real divots.
Enough words. Let the pictures tell the story. No retouching or sharpening has been applied:
The brakes still work at this point but there's a clear grinding noise when braking hard. There's also a bad squeal in city traffic.
I have since replaced this corner with a new rotor. The LR rotor presently looks like the RR at event #7-8 (almost fully exposed wear indicators but still perfect rotor surface). The indicators have yet to become fully exposed in the front.
My two takeaways:
- After closely inspecting this rotor I have removed the dust shield in all four corners to improve cooling. Temperature clearly has an direct impact on rotor life--see how the rotor looks better on the inboard side where it's cooled by the brake ducts. That said, if you look closely at the last two pictures the inboard rotor surface appears very wrinkled/stressed and vs. the silky surface of a new rotor. I have no doubt that delamination will follow within one event or two.
- Unlike Fiat CCMs which exhibit "fiber burn" linearly throughout a rotor's life, PCCBs don't really have a tell before delamination occurs, other than those three wear indicators. The official bulletin never mentioned this as a hard and fast rule, but empirically I think a rotor's days are truly limited once all three indicators are fully exposed.
Hope this shines light on a practical topic that concerns so many of us here.
Last edited by CRex; 11-10-2012 at 01:03 PM.
11-10-2012, 01:06 PM
#3
I have well over 30 track days on my PCCB's, they still look new. My local track is hard on brakes as weel..I've replaced the pads about 4 times now.
I also have a customer in a GT2 that has over 16K track miles and he's still on the original rotors, showing signs of wear tho.
I also have a customer in a GT2 that has over 16K track miles and he's still on the original rotors, showing signs of wear tho.
11-10-2012, 01:20 PM
#4
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Thread Starter
No I bought a hat+rotor combo--the assembly ships as a combo and not alone. Rumor has it that Porsche Motorsports ships the ceramic rotor (sans hat) to SuperCup teams so that may be a path worth exploring.
There's a big element of laptimes and driving style in how these things wear, which is the reference to cast iron rotors on the same car and same track matters. Other owners with comparable laptimes to mine have all replaced their OEM irons by the 4th event (some by their 3rd). My RR bought the farm at #11, and I estimate the LR to last till #13 and the fronts probably #15.
I have well over 30 track days on my PCCB's, they still look new. My local track is hard on brakes as weel..I've replaced the pads about 4 times now.
I also have a customer in a GT2 that has over 16K track miles and he's still on the original rotors, showing signs of wear tho.
I also have a customer in a GT2 that has over 16K track miles and he's still on the original rotors, showing signs of wear tho.
11-10-2012, 01:51 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
It sounds like you have bought a new CCB rotor for the RR based on your post? Agree with above post that 6.5k track miles sounds like pretty good amount of life from them.
11-10-2012, 01:57 PM
#7
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Some drivers are faster than others, makes a huge difference on brakes longevity (PCCB or steel).
Some tracks are harder than others, also makes a difference on longevity.
Some tires have more grip than others, makes a difference on brake wear as well.
Hot days are harder on brakes than mellow Alaskan temperatures.
The real test for brakes longevity is a fast driver (someone within 1 or 3 secs from a Pro at a 2:00 minutes track), with track tires: Hoosiers or slicks, on a track like Watkins Glen, Road America or Sebring. No freaking way PCCB would survive 20 days with 90 minutes of driving per day in these conditions.
In the Ferrari Challenge, front rotors are toast after 2 weekends, and rear ones are toast after 3 weekends. This is for the front runners. The mid-pack gets a 3rd weekend out of the front rotors and a 4th out of the rear CCB rotors. The cars are equipped with massive brake cooling ducts. Front rotors are good for 10-18 hours, then they are toast, not as bad a CRex rotors but no longer good.
My Scuderia uses the same rotors as the 458/F430 Challenge. I have 28 track days on my rotors, front ones are nearly done, rear ones are in great conditions. My rotors have less than 25 hours on them.
There is also the misleading odometer mileage on car that is tracked vs. track miles. A 40,000 miles car that is tracked regularly is not a car with 40,000 track miles. At 40,000 track miles, the car would have gone through 3 engine builds, 5 transmissions, and a multitude of bearings, hubs, suspension arms, shocks, mufflers, etc.
Some tracks are harder than others, also makes a difference on longevity.
Some tires have more grip than others, makes a difference on brake wear as well.
Hot days are harder on brakes than mellow Alaskan temperatures.
The real test for brakes longevity is a fast driver (someone within 1 or 3 secs from a Pro at a 2:00 minutes track), with track tires: Hoosiers or slicks, on a track like Watkins Glen, Road America or Sebring. No freaking way PCCB would survive 20 days with 90 minutes of driving per day in these conditions.
In the Ferrari Challenge, front rotors are toast after 2 weekends, and rear ones are toast after 3 weekends. This is for the front runners. The mid-pack gets a 3rd weekend out of the front rotors and a 4th out of the rear CCB rotors. The cars are equipped with massive brake cooling ducts. Front rotors are good for 10-18 hours, then they are toast, not as bad a CRex rotors but no longer good.
My Scuderia uses the same rotors as the 458/F430 Challenge. I have 28 track days on my rotors, front ones are nearly done, rear ones are in great conditions. My rotors have less than 25 hours on them.
There is also the misleading odometer mileage on car that is tracked vs. track miles. A 40,000 miles car that is tracked regularly is not a car with 40,000 track miles. At 40,000 track miles, the car would have gone through 3 engine builds, 5 transmissions, and a multitude of bearings, hubs, suspension arms, shocks, mufflers, etc.
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11-10-2012, 01:58 PM
#8
22 days for an $18,000 set of rotors plus have to throw the pads away at 50% is not good
30 track days and still look new sounds a lot more like what you would hope to get for the money
guess it depends on lap times
30 track days and still look new sounds a lot more like what you would hope to get for the money
guess it depends on lap times
11-10-2012, 02:35 PM
#9
Rennlist Member
Crex
When you mention steel rotor longevity, are you saying the cracks are just beginning on steel or they have started spreading out significantly towards other holes?
When you mention steel rotor longevity, are you saying the cracks are just beginning on steel or they have started spreading out significantly towards other holes?
11-10-2012, 03:34 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
Some drivers are faster than others, makes a huge difference on brakes longevity (PCCB or steel).
Some tracks are harder than others, also makes a difference on longevity.
Some tires have more grip than others, makes a difference on brake wear as well.
Hot days are harder on brakes than mellow Alaskan temperatures.
The real test for brakes longevity is a fast driver (someone within 1 or 3 secs from a Pro at a 2:00 minutes track), with track tires: Hoosiers or slicks, on a track like Watkins Glen, Road America or Sebring. No freaking way PCCB would survive 20 days with 90 minutes of driving per day in these conditions.
In the Ferrari Challenge, front rotors are toast after 2 weekends, and rear ones are toast after 3 weekends. This is for the front runners. The mid-pack gets a 3rd weekend out of the front rotors and a 4th out of the rear CCB rotors. The cars are equipped with massive brake cooling ducts. Front rotors are good for 10-18 hours, then they are toast, not as bad a CRex rotors but no longer good.
My Scuderia uses the same rotors as the 458/F430 Challenge. I have 28 track days on my rotors, front ones are nearly done, rear ones are in great conditions. My rotors have less than 25 hours on them.
There is also the misleading odometer mileage on car that is tracked vs. track miles. A 40,000 miles car that is tracked regularly is not a car with 40,000 track miles. At 40,000 track miles, the car would have gone through 3 engine builds, 5 transmissions, and a multitude of bearings, hubs, suspension arms, shocks, mufflers, etc.
Some tracks are harder than others, also makes a difference on longevity.
Some tires have more grip than others, makes a difference on brake wear as well.
Hot days are harder on brakes than mellow Alaskan temperatures.
The real test for brakes longevity is a fast driver (someone within 1 or 3 secs from a Pro at a 2:00 minutes track), with track tires: Hoosiers or slicks, on a track like Watkins Glen, Road America or Sebring. No freaking way PCCB would survive 20 days with 90 minutes of driving per day in these conditions.
In the Ferrari Challenge, front rotors are toast after 2 weekends, and rear ones are toast after 3 weekends. This is for the front runners. The mid-pack gets a 3rd weekend out of the front rotors and a 4th out of the rear CCB rotors. The cars are equipped with massive brake cooling ducts. Front rotors are good for 10-18 hours, then they are toast, not as bad a CRex rotors but no longer good.
My Scuderia uses the same rotors as the 458/F430 Challenge. I have 28 track days on my rotors, front ones are nearly done, rear ones are in great conditions. My rotors have less than 25 hours on them.
There is also the misleading odometer mileage on car that is tracked vs. track miles. A 40,000 miles car that is tracked regularly is not a car with 40,000 track miles. At 40,000 track miles, the car would have gone through 3 engine builds, 5 transmissions, and a multitude of bearings, hubs, suspension arms, shocks, mufflers, etc.
I had same question, CREX mentions cracking all the way through from hole to hole. But to me a rotor is not cracked until a crack goes all the way through the surface to the cooling vanes in the center of the rotors. The cracks connecting the holes happen after just a few days.
11-10-2012, 03:55 PM
#11
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The most important wear measurement is by actual weight.
I bought a set of 5,000 miles PCCB lightly tracked from a 996 GT2, and ran them for 29,000 miles on my own, for a total of 34,000 miles. Around 3,500 miles were track miles, and I ran more than 100 autocrosses on them. By the time I sold the car, the front rotors were near the end, and the rear ones just fine.
I bought these same PCCB rotors from the guy I sold the 996 GT3, and put them on my 997 GT3 RS for another 8 months, put another 1,000 track miles on them. Front ones were finished after a long service life, rear ones still good.
I put 35-38 track days on them, plus street miles plus over 100 autocrosses. I ran Pagid RS19 and RS29, took pads out before they would wear out, ran Motul RBF600 then Castrol SRF, bigger brake cooling ducts, took care of cool down the brakes after a track session.
If I were to use these same PCCB on a track like Sebring, on Hoosiers or slicks, they would not last 20 days.
I bought a set of 5,000 miles PCCB lightly tracked from a 996 GT2, and ran them for 29,000 miles on my own, for a total of 34,000 miles. Around 3,500 miles were track miles, and I ran more than 100 autocrosses on them. By the time I sold the car, the front rotors were near the end, and the rear ones just fine.
I bought these same PCCB rotors from the guy I sold the 996 GT3, and put them on my 997 GT3 RS for another 8 months, put another 1,000 track miles on them. Front ones were finished after a long service life, rear ones still good.
I put 35-38 track days on them, plus street miles plus over 100 autocrosses. I ran Pagid RS19 and RS29, took pads out before they would wear out, ran Motul RBF600 then Castrol SRF, bigger brake cooling ducts, took care of cool down the brakes after a track session.
If I were to use these same PCCB on a track like Sebring, on Hoosiers or slicks, they would not last 20 days.
11-10-2012, 04:03 PM
#12
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Each rotor comes etched with actual weight in grams, and minimum weight in grams. The front rotors have a 100 grams (0.22 lbs) weight difference between brand new and minimum weight. The rear rotors have a 55 grams weight difference between brand new and minimum weight (worn out weight).
Last edited by NJ-GT; 08-13-2013 at 10:18 AM.
