csmarx

OK, so....

I used to own a 996 GT3. In fact I have owned two, one in Germany, and one here in California. I ran it completely stock with MPSC's. Had to try a couple of alignements, but quickly got it to feel very confidence inspiring, and I loved driving it on track. I'm not chasing every last 10th. I just like to drive reasonable fast and have fun. I am not looking to create a race car with lots of mods, etc. In fact I enjoy being able to drive a basically stock car from my house to the track, whirl around the track for a couple of days, and drive home. So my setup is never the most aggressive - just enough to work decently on the track. So liked the car and felt very confident in it (at least in the dry).

Decided to upgrade to a 997 GT3 (1st gen), since I wanted a more modern car, one that's more comfortable on the street, and I like the looks of it. But on track, I just can't get comfortable with it. I've taken out some rubber in the rear (engine mounts, dog bones and toe links), and I've put a GT2 rear sway bar on it, based on various suggestions from people in the know. I've tried to dial in the alignment as well. But there is just something about this car that makes me not feel confident in pushing it. Speaking to various people, some suggest basically swapping out the whole suspension or large parts of it, etc, etc, but I really hope to not go down that path. To clarify, I'm not really talking about whether the car over steers or under steers. I can deal with either. It's not fast if they do, but it doesn't rob me of confidence per se. It's more a feeling that I don't know what the car is going to do if I push it, sort of thing.

Am I crazy in feeling this way about the 997 vs. the 996? Am I imagining things? If other's have felt the same way, is there a way to fix it without changing the whole undercarriage? Someone suggested the car desperately needs the nose lowered thus putting some rake on the car. Ok, will this make a serious difference without changing a bunch of parts too? What about the PASM? Is that interfering with my feeling for the car? Can it be turned off, so the stock dampers are used in passive mode? Has anyone tried it? Did it make a difference in what I'm describing?

I really don't want to chase down a path of ever more modifications. I just want a mostly stock car with the right settings (and not overly aggressive since I drive the car to and from the track). If that's not possible I'm going to sell the car, and that's that. I really want to love this car, and I do on the street, but not on track. I'm also loath to go back to the 996, since I've been there done that and it's quite dated inside - but maybe I'll wind up with that....

Any thoughts, advice (prefereably based on actual experience) before I sell the car???

PLease, please help me to love this car!!!



Thanks,
-Christian

tasman

Have you had someone else drive the car? Maybe there is something they can point out to you. I'm sure others will chime in to help you.

TAI2

I think we need more info here.

What is the car doing or not doing when you say it is not confidence inspiring? You state that you "don't know what the car is going to do if I push it,.....". Have you tried to push it? If so, what did it do or not do?

I have driven both 996 and 997.1 GT3's and feel that the 997.1 is "easier" to drive fast and stay out of trouble. What I mean by easier is that it is more forgiving if I get sloppy with my driver inputs. The 996 is actually more involving and requires you to be more in control of your inputs but in some cases this actually makes it a "faster" car. Sorry but we need more info.

P.J.S.

In making the same transition, it took me a few days to figure out that the 997 might feel slower because it is more composed... But in actuality it is quicker

I think pasm on soft, TC off, sport on, with a proper alignment/corner balance/rake, and let her rip...

The car out of the box is quicker than a like set up 996

seapar

Good suggestions. I would ask a good instructor/coach drive your car and help sort it out for you as is. Also input in your driving style would be helpful in eliminating or correcting that as a factor. Keep an open mind. We all want to improve in a safe, controlled manner and understand the mechanics of our cars better.

tcsracing1

who is doing your alignments? What is your sway bar setting?

these things can be set up to run like a rabbit in sneakers. But they can also be set up to handle like a bag of ****.

fc-racer

The 997.1 doesn't take a confidence inspiring "set" in the PASM sport mode. Try PASM soft with TC off as the person above suggested. This will give you more "feel" and therefore more confidence in the car. The minimal body roll threw me off for a few days initially too.

Larry Cable

+1

Larry Cable

I think you may be experiencing driving with scissors and not a scalpel...

the 996 is so sharp that (I found) once you understood how to drive it fast you could appreciate the dynamics of the car, and how to interpret the signals it would deliver; the 7.1 is a different beast and arguably easier to drive it fast (with the proper alignment etc)

I agree with others, PASM (normal), TC (off) and the GT2 rear bar and you are good to go!

997gt3north

I have commented on this a few times but what you are feeling (or not feeling) is the difference in the chassis stiffness in the cars. The 996 gt3s would bend in the corners and thus you feel more - stiffer more modern chassis bend less and the suspension thus can work better. A 997, never mind a 991, is never going to feel like a 996 - but they will be faster. You either accept this and re-tune your brain or go back and drive the slower 996 - a hell of a car - but it is slower - the world moves forward.

GT3.2

Hello
I experienced the same exact situation you described. I owned a 2005 GT-3 and now own a 2010 GT-3.
Recently drove Laguna Seca and found the 2 cars completely different. I felt so connected and confident with the 996. I could not get the rear end of the 997 to grip like the 996 did. I was very disappointed and left the track stunned that the 2010 behaved the way it did. After the track I had the car aligned and loosened the rear sway bar per the recommendation of the shop foreman at Rector Porsche where I service the car. I hope the next time out the car will exceed my expectations of what a GT-3 ......

997gt3north

A 2010 gt3 is about 4 seconds per 2 minute lap faster than a 996gt3 - you are likely feeling the +70hp difference and it's ability to break the rear end's grip free - unlike the 996's inability to do so.

csmarx

Hello All,

First of all thank you for taking the time to respond to my post both here and with private messages. I'll try to respond here to everyone to try to keep it simple.

First a little background: While i'm by no means a pro racer, and by no means the fastest guy out there at DE events, I do have some experience. I've been driving on track for 12 years, I used to have FIA International C racing license, and did two seasons of endurance racing at the Nürburgring Nordschleife. I had 996.2 GT3 Club Sport (not sold here) that I probably did about 10k miles in just around the Ring, and I also had - and still have - a 968 Club Sport with full M030 package parked at the Ring. I also did a few Formula Ford races, and some saloon racing. I've done a lot of car control clinics, testing days, wet handling circuits, etc. I've done countless track days. I'm also a PCA National DE instructor. As I said I'm not the fastest guy out there, and I'm not a naturally gifted driver, but I do have some amount of car control skills and ability to feel the car. To those who asked about my driving style, I tend towards the smooth style rather than aggressive style, and I tend to be fairly cautious. I'm pretty slow to get up to speed on a track with a car, but eventually I get there. I like to slowly increase my speed and confidence in various sections of track and approach my ultimate speed very much from below. My "local" track (3-4 hrs drive away) is Laguna Seca. In the 996 GT3 with MPSC's when I was just starting to get it dialed and get the pressures right, etc, I was at about 1:45 laps. Not particularly fast, but certainly not parked either. I should also say that while I used to race or track every other weekend or more, I then took 5 years of to travel, get married, have a kid, etc. Now I'm back at driving for a couple of years, but only go once every month or so on average, maybe a bit less. I'm much less interested in ultimate setup than I used to be, and more interested in having fun, with less hassle, but still being able to feel like I'm making progress in doing so.

OK, so what about the 997 GT3. When I first bought it, I took it to Sears Point which is a new track for me. I had horrible, horrendous under steer. Based on some threads here, and private messages (thank you everyone), I put in a GT2 rear sway bar. Still had horrendous under steer. Sheepishly I then realized that my front tires, which came with the car, were just plain old. Plenty of tread, but old non-sticky rubber, while the rears were pretty new (MPSC's). Changed the fronts tires, and increased the front camber so my settings were: -2.0 camber front with zero toe, and -1.8 rear with about 1/16th toe in each side. GT2 rear sway bar on full soft, and front sway bar one off full soft. It's deliberately a middle of the road setup so I can drive it on the highway but still have fun at the track. With these settings I was now getting a bit of oversteer. Definitely not neutral. Of course my newish rear rubber was now getting a bit more worn.... Next I stiffened the front bar one notch to middle setting, put in RSS engine mounts, and also dog bones and toe links in the rear. At this point the car felt reasonably neutral. Oh, I also had the car corner balanced. The setup was done by experienced shops, and all was checked to be tight, etc. So to those who wonder if something was wrong with the car, I strongly doubt it. At this point I had it done several times and checked several times by experienced guys. I would normally drive with PASM in normal mode (since it can go almost as stiff as in sport mode, but also have more range on the soft side), sport mode, and at first with TC off, then later with TC on. I don't think the TC is really affecting this much, but I do wonder about the whole PASM thing.

So what is it I'm feeling or not feeling? Hard to describe, but I think Larry Cable put it pretty well by saying scalpel (996) vs. scissors (997). All the cars I've raced or tracked have been straight forward mechanical suspensions with no electronic driver aids other than ABS. And I'd prefer no ABS in the dry. Anyway, my 968 CS M030 is definitely a scalpel, the 996 GT3 is a scalpel. But the 997 feels a bit numb to me. It's so hard to put my finger on it. I have no doubt that theoretically it's faster than a 996, but for me it has been slower. I've been to Sears Point for 2 weekends and Laguna Seca for 3 weekends with the car, so have had some opportunity to feel it. How do I describe it, does it feel like a 996 with the alignment a bit off and the tire pressures a bit off? I don't know, it just doesn't feel like a car I'm going to go out there and push and seek the limits of and feel comfortable doing it. I'm sorry I can't be more descriptive than that. It's not a simple feeling like under or over steer type thing. Maybe I'm just getting old, and have no idea what the heck I'm talking about....

Today I spoke to the guys at GMG Racing, and they suggested that this car really needs some rake to be drivable. I.e. the nose has to be lowered. I haven't tried this. (It would probably make my driveway near impossible....) But he also suggested that I really would need to replace most of the suspension, like at the very least both front and rear sway bars to be much stiffer, and most of the linkages front and rear. He also suggested that to really make this car worth it, to get rid of the PASM and install new springs and dampers. I don't want to go down this path of endless mods and chasing something I may never find.....

Ok, so I'm very curious about the rake thing and how much difference that will realistically make without all the other parts. Any comments on that?

What about the idea of turning the PASM electronics off, so the stock dampers are now just passive? Is this even possible? Anyone tried this?

I guess I'm looking for one of two things in making this post. I'm looking to find out if the 997 is just different, and short of changing the whole suspension, it will never give the level of involvement and feel as a 996. Or, that it's just a matter of setup, for example put some rake on it, and voila, there you go sort of thing - a kind of "aha" moment. The former will lead me to sell the car, the latter will lead me to keep trying a bit more.

I better stop there before you kind souls, who are responding to this, nod off in boredom....

Thanks all,
-Christian

NJ-GT

All cars are sensitive to rake, but I don't think your problem is rake.

The PASM shocks in the 997.1 GT3 are not that good, but the car still drives well.

MPSC tires in the 996 GT3 (18" sizes) were race-spec MPSC, while MPSC tires in the 997.1 and 997.2 GT3 are the N-Spec tires (less grip).

I would run the car on a set of street/track tires, R888 or Trofeo, and have the limited slip diff checked as this unit wears out prematurely and cause ill handling issues (darty rear on turn exit, swinging rear under braking, a lack of progression on trail-braking.

Camber and toe are fine for combined street and track use. I like the rear toe at 4mm total (5/32"), your setup at 3mm (1/8") makes for a twitchy read-end.

The 996 GT3 is less stable and more difficult to drive, the 997.1 GT3 is excessively stable.

No need to throw parts to the car, in between alignment, LSD and tires it should get fixed. The happy rake is 20mm, and you can run the car 10mm below stock ride height.

Through PIWIS, the PASM can be deactivated, but I would rather install a set of Bilstein B16, affordable coil-over kit, PASM compatible, good for street/track use, street friendly spring rates.

A bone stock 997.1 GT3 driven by a Pro (Max Angelelli) lapped Laguna Seca in 1:39.5, so the car is pretty fast.

996FLT6

Maybe you like the 6gt3 better? The feel is different. I can put faster laps on the 7 but doesn't feel like I am trying hard. I wouldn't say numb but 6 is pretty frenetic. Mike