Centerlock Hub Failure Buttonwillow 5/25/12
05-31-2012, 08:35 AM
#47
Rennlist Member
I'm sympathetic to the OP, having followed the CL saga. But to show the car with a roll cage, aftermarket wheels, and a BOW loading up the right-rear in your avatar is not going to help any case you hope to have.
As others have suggested, I would ask admin to delete this thread if you plan to pursue a lawsuit. Anything you say can and will be used against you.
As others have suggested, I would ask admin to delete this thread if you plan to pursue a lawsuit. Anything you say can and will be used against you.
05-31-2012, 10:17 AM
#48
There was a Center Lock Recall at some point. I believe there was a hardware change as a result of it. Do you know if this was done for your car?
Sorry to hear about the incident but thankfully no one was hurt...
Sorry to hear about the incident but thankfully no one was hurt...
05-31-2012, 10:22 AM
#49
The "problem" with centerlocks is few owners and shops understand the correct service procedures. Or choose to ignore them. This has been discussed in detail in previous threads and I won't rehash it here other than to suggest if your wheels come off (during service, hopefully not on track!) it is your responsibility to determine if they were reinstalled properly. You must thoroughly understand and must interrogate the servicing tech in regards to the centerlock procedures used. It is your money and your life.
Last edited by savyboy; 05-31-2012 at 10:41 AM. Reason: added parathensis info for clarity
05-31-2012, 11:05 AM
#50
Race Director
Porsche will not even acknowledge anything wrong with the company's center lock hub design and will never offer any assistance until someone that is very wealthy and can afford the best lawyers to take it to Porsche. Or someone with this type of stature has a failure and gets really hurt in an accident or dies.
05-31-2012, 12:31 PM
#52
05-31-2012, 12:50 PM
#53
Burning Brakes
I know of one five-lug failure? Any system can fail if improperly serviced.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv4m41viy4I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv4m41viy4I
05-31-2012, 12:59 PM
#54
Rennlist Member
I am sorry for your trouble and the mountain of fighting ahead of you if you go that route.
05-31-2012, 02:44 PM
#56
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I was there to see the aftermath & talked with Geoff. I held the sheared off hub in my hand and, speaking admittedly as a non-engineer, I was not impressed. Given the plentiful alternatives, I would not track a CL car. If I owned one and wanted to track it, I would make inspection of the system part of my pre-flight check EVERY SESSION.
The incident has prompted me to think more about why this particular system has always struck me (as someone who does operational risk management for a living) as a very bad idea. Below are a few facts that from a liability perspective don’t bode well for Porsche on this IMHO:
1. This particular CL system is unique to Porsche. It is different from other CL systems used around the world, including the system used on Porsche’s own race cars. This puts the onus/liability squarely on Porsche if the design is not viable in the performance & expected usage envelope of a vehicle upon which this system is (mandatory) standard equipment.
2. This CL system appears to have very small operating tolerances, outside of which it is likely to fail catastrophically. Compounding this, the usage procedures of this system are esoteric and have already been changed at least once since introduction.
3. This CL system has already been subject to one full NHTSA recall in June 2011 for exactly this failure-mode.
4. Despite #2, this CL system is intended to be serviceable outside the dealer network. Why else would Porsche sell the big socket and other tools required? If the cars had been marketed with the understanding that the CL system was not owner-serviceable and the socket had been embargoed to enforce a dealer-only service model with respect to the CL system, Porsche may have had a leg to stand on when a CL system failed after being serviced outside the dealer network, but none of that is true in this case. On the contrary, it is both an industry-wide and public expectation that wheel attachment mechanisms be highly serviceable to facilitate tire and brake pad replacement. This distinguishes this system from other potentially deadly systems (like airbags) that are sealed by the manufacturer and generally left undisturbed afterward.
5. Wheels detaching from a moving vehicle create a high likelihood of injury or death. This is obvious but it bears mentioning since it distinguishes the CL component from other less-risky vehicle systems which may meet criteria 1-4.
6. Lastly, the physical appearance of the hollow hub used in this CL system is not impressive compared to either the common 5-lug/bolt attachment mechanism or the solid-hub CL system used in race cars. Imagine laying this Porsche street-car CL system out on a table in front of a jury in a civil court wrongful-death lawsuit, and next to it displaying the vastly-more-common alternative systems that use solid, rather than hollow, mounting hardware.
Put 1-6 together and what you have is a mess. Somewhere in the decision-tree at Porsche AG, someone failed to assess the risks of this particular design. You never want to be way out in front of the herd on a component design like this where the consequences of failure are so high, the usage procedures are so complex/esoteric and a vast army of people outside your control are going to be servicing the system. Especially when there is no real upside, as is the case with this CL system.
I’d guess there’s a pretty high likelihood of a 2nd full recall & replacement of this CL system… eventually. The question is whether Porsche does it before or after someone dies. It will cost them less if they do it before, and more importantly that would also be the morally correct thing to do.
The incident has prompted me to think more about why this particular system has always struck me (as someone who does operational risk management for a living) as a very bad idea. Below are a few facts that from a liability perspective don’t bode well for Porsche on this IMHO:
1. This particular CL system is unique to Porsche. It is different from other CL systems used around the world, including the system used on Porsche’s own race cars. This puts the onus/liability squarely on Porsche if the design is not viable in the performance & expected usage envelope of a vehicle upon which this system is (mandatory) standard equipment.
2. This CL system appears to have very small operating tolerances, outside of which it is likely to fail catastrophically. Compounding this, the usage procedures of this system are esoteric and have already been changed at least once since introduction.
3. This CL system has already been subject to one full NHTSA recall in June 2011 for exactly this failure-mode.
4. Despite #2, this CL system is intended to be serviceable outside the dealer network. Why else would Porsche sell the big socket and other tools required? If the cars had been marketed with the understanding that the CL system was not owner-serviceable and the socket had been embargoed to enforce a dealer-only service model with respect to the CL system, Porsche may have had a leg to stand on when a CL system failed after being serviced outside the dealer network, but none of that is true in this case. On the contrary, it is both an industry-wide and public expectation that wheel attachment mechanisms be highly serviceable to facilitate tire and brake pad replacement. This distinguishes this system from other potentially deadly systems (like airbags) that are sealed by the manufacturer and generally left undisturbed afterward.
5. Wheels detaching from a moving vehicle create a high likelihood of injury or death. This is obvious but it bears mentioning since it distinguishes the CL component from other less-risky vehicle systems which may meet criteria 1-4.
6. Lastly, the physical appearance of the hollow hub used in this CL system is not impressive compared to either the common 5-lug/bolt attachment mechanism or the solid-hub CL system used in race cars. Imagine laying this Porsche street-car CL system out on a table in front of a jury in a civil court wrongful-death lawsuit, and next to it displaying the vastly-more-common alternative systems that use solid, rather than hollow, mounting hardware.
Put 1-6 together and what you have is a mess. Somewhere in the decision-tree at Porsche AG, someone failed to assess the risks of this particular design. You never want to be way out in front of the herd on a component design like this where the consequences of failure are so high, the usage procedures are so complex/esoteric and a vast army of people outside your control are going to be servicing the system. Especially when there is no real upside, as is the case with this CL system.
I’d guess there’s a pretty high likelihood of a 2nd full recall & replacement of this CL system… eventually. The question is whether Porsche does it before or after someone dies. It will cost them less if they do it before, and more importantly that would also be the morally correct thing to do.
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LoganMarriott (04-15-2022)
05-31-2012, 02:53 PM
#57
Burning Brakes
I've read two instances of the CL wheels coming off. One was at a car dealership in Northern VA. It happened at a nearby track. That one got replaced by PCNA. The other wreck was in China, we all saw images on this forum, but we never found out what caused the wreck. This was probably the first incident that I know about where the CL wheel came off. Either it crashed and then came off or the wheel came off first and caused the crash. After that incident the CL recall occurred. So, does anyone know what happened to the car in China?
05-31-2012, 03:01 PM
#58
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I know of one five-lug failure? Any system can fail if improperly serviced.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv4m41viy4I
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jv4m41viy4I
This is hardly a 5-lug failure in a GT3, but if you choose to use a lug bolts from a Fiat in a GT3, and blame the failure to a Porsche 5-lug design defect, so be it. I know this forum is Center-Lock-Lover in its majority.
05-31-2012, 03:01 PM
#59
Rennlist Member
Was the incident involving the Chinese car on the road or track?
05-31-2012, 03:05 PM
#60
Nordschleife Master
