Disc & Brake bed-in
02-21-2012, 11:46 AM
#16
Rennlist Member
02-21-2012, 12:02 PM
#17
Former Vendor
06-13-2012, 01:51 PM
#18
Intermediate
My experience with bed-in, wear, and swapping pads
After two seasons of use (about 20 track days) with pagid yellow rs29 front & rear on 2011 Carrera S, my experience with bed-in, wear, and swapping back and forth between pagid and stock pads:
- I purchased GyroDisc rotors after first track day to preserve stock drill-through rotors. Porsche drill-through rotors will crack sooner than slotted. The GiroDisk rotor is very good and I would say I can get at least another 20 track days out of the front set. The rears will likely last double the front. Fronts have minor heat cracks, but both front and rear have negligible grooving and wear.
- I get about 3 to 1 wear on front pads versus rear. Rear still have 10mm of brake pad. I have replaced fronts once, and second set of front rs 29 pagids will need to be replaced in one or two more track days
- Pagid rs29 yellow in front and rs14 black in back may be the better way to go because the fronts tend to get hotter than rear, wear faster, and the fronts will begin to lock up before the rear wheels on dry surface. Either wider wheels up front or a bias valve would help, but the simplest solution may be to run the pagid blacks in back. I will try that next when the rear pads are at 5mm pad material.
- I first bedded in the pagid yellows on the stock rotors to heat up and season the pad. I did this per pagid instructions. Then I swapped out stock rotors for GiroDisc, and then bedded in rotors with seasoned pads per GiroDisc. Finally, I bedded in the pads again per pagid. The sequence introduces small amount of heat to rotors, and then more heat to transfer pad material to rotor.
- Subsequently, I have swapped in stock pads after track days. I no longer use the anti-vibration spider discs. They are a pain and are not really needed for the stock pads anyway. I sometimes get a little bit of squeal with stock pads, but not worth reinstalling the anti-squeal discs.
- I used to re-bed the pagids to the rotors after swapping out the stock pads. That does not seem necessary or useful. I have run the pagids on the street for a couple of weeks, but they start to squeal badly. I have tried beveling the leading and trailing edges but particularly on new thick pads, the pagids squeal. After heating up and transferring material to the rotors, the pagids squeal less, but when applied lightly they will still squeal.
In conclusion, the pagid yellow rs29 pads wear very well and are easy on the rotors. The GiroDiscs are great because they are bigger diameter than stock, however at the cost of GiroDiscs, replacing the stocks may be about as economical. This is hard to tell because the GiroDiscs may outlast stock rotors by 3 to 1. Just guessing based on what I have heard from other Porsche owners.
Also, I now believe that it is only necessary to bed-in the pads when they are new to prevent glazing, and it does not matter if the rotor has prior brake film on it. It will wear off, and if there is some judder, it will be very temporary. The bed-in procedure for pagid pads should heat them up sufficiently to ashen (burn off) two to three millimeters of paint on the edge of the pads where it contacts the rotors. Too little heat during bed in will cause the pads to be overheated during a full track session and cause glazing. Too much heat to the pads during bed-in will again cause glazing.
Bedding in pagids on way to track at lower speeds is no problem. Just increase the amount of medium stops and hard stops. For example, do 10 or 12 medium pressure stops from 70 to 40 mph, then do five or six hard stops from 70-40. Or do a couple of warm up laps during the first session at the track. It is not that critical as long as enough (but not too much) heat is transferred to the pads and then the pads are allowed to cool before attacking the track for a full session.
Bedding-in the rotor initially is also required so that the rotors are not introduced to too much heat initially, but it is not necessary to bed-in with used pads or the pad that will be used at the track.
- I purchased GyroDisc rotors after first track day to preserve stock drill-through rotors. Porsche drill-through rotors will crack sooner than slotted. The GiroDisk rotor is very good and I would say I can get at least another 20 track days out of the front set. The rears will likely last double the front. Fronts have minor heat cracks, but both front and rear have negligible grooving and wear.
- I get about 3 to 1 wear on front pads versus rear. Rear still have 10mm of brake pad. I have replaced fronts once, and second set of front rs 29 pagids will need to be replaced in one or two more track days
- Pagid rs29 yellow in front and rs14 black in back may be the better way to go because the fronts tend to get hotter than rear, wear faster, and the fronts will begin to lock up before the rear wheels on dry surface. Either wider wheels up front or a bias valve would help, but the simplest solution may be to run the pagid blacks in back. I will try that next when the rear pads are at 5mm pad material.
- I first bedded in the pagid yellows on the stock rotors to heat up and season the pad. I did this per pagid instructions. Then I swapped out stock rotors for GiroDisc, and then bedded in rotors with seasoned pads per GiroDisc. Finally, I bedded in the pads again per pagid. The sequence introduces small amount of heat to rotors, and then more heat to transfer pad material to rotor.
- Subsequently, I have swapped in stock pads after track days. I no longer use the anti-vibration spider discs. They are a pain and are not really needed for the stock pads anyway. I sometimes get a little bit of squeal with stock pads, but not worth reinstalling the anti-squeal discs.
- I used to re-bed the pagids to the rotors after swapping out the stock pads. That does not seem necessary or useful. I have run the pagids on the street for a couple of weeks, but they start to squeal badly. I have tried beveling the leading and trailing edges but particularly on new thick pads, the pagids squeal. After heating up and transferring material to the rotors, the pagids squeal less, but when applied lightly they will still squeal.
In conclusion, the pagid yellow rs29 pads wear very well and are easy on the rotors. The GiroDiscs are great because they are bigger diameter than stock, however at the cost of GiroDiscs, replacing the stocks may be about as economical. This is hard to tell because the GiroDiscs may outlast stock rotors by 3 to 1. Just guessing based on what I have heard from other Porsche owners.
Also, I now believe that it is only necessary to bed-in the pads when they are new to prevent glazing, and it does not matter if the rotor has prior brake film on it. It will wear off, and if there is some judder, it will be very temporary. The bed-in procedure for pagid pads should heat them up sufficiently to ashen (burn off) two to three millimeters of paint on the edge of the pads where it contacts the rotors. Too little heat during bed in will cause the pads to be overheated during a full track session and cause glazing. Too much heat to the pads during bed-in will again cause glazing.
Bedding in pagids on way to track at lower speeds is no problem. Just increase the amount of medium stops and hard stops. For example, do 10 or 12 medium pressure stops from 70 to 40 mph, then do five or six hard stops from 70-40. Or do a couple of warm up laps during the first session at the track. It is not that critical as long as enough (but not too much) heat is transferred to the pads and then the pads are allowed to cool before attacking the track for a full session.
Bedding-in the rotor initially is also required so that the rotors are not introduced to too much heat initially, but it is not necessary to bed-in with used pads or the pad that will be used at the track.
06-13-2012, 02:46 PM
#20
I gave up on trying to bed rotors/pads on the street. Following the exact procedure as described by Pagid is very hard. You have to find a long stretch of road and very little traffic, as you cannot stop until everything is done. Not really possible around here. Especially for the rears it is very hard to do on the street.
So now I just install them, drive to the track and take it easy during the first run, progressively building up braking power until all is fine. Just don't go triggering abs before the contact patch between pad and rotor is maximized
So now I just install them, drive to the track and take it easy during the first run, progressively building up braking power until all is fine. Just don't go triggering abs before the contact patch between pad and rotor is maximized
06-13-2012, 03:00 PM
#21
Nordschleife Master
Just ran my first set of PFC 06' last weekend.
Had been running Pagids RS29 with ATE Cayenne discs, but was curious to try the PFC'. Discs had approx 10 days, with some cracking, but tons of life left.
No bedding cause you guys said it wasn't needed, so it's one less thing to worry abuot. Results are:
- These have more initial bite, and I will need to adjust my technique, but not a problem. Locked up, slightly, a few times at first
- For first 1.5 day, I felt a slight vibration in pedal, as though I was feeling every little crack in the rotors. This disappeared later on
- I still have 3/4 full Pagids in the rear, but will install 06' there too at the Glen this weekend
Mosport isn't a big braking track, but I think I like these.
Had been running Pagids RS29 with ATE Cayenne discs, but was curious to try the PFC'. Discs had approx 10 days, with some cracking, but tons of life left.
No bedding cause you guys said it wasn't needed, so it's one less thing to worry abuot. Results are:
- These have more initial bite, and I will need to adjust my technique, but not a problem. Locked up, slightly, a few times at first
- For first 1.5 day, I felt a slight vibration in pedal, as though I was feeling every little crack in the rotors. This disappeared later on
- I still have 3/4 full Pagids in the rear, but will install 06' there too at the Glen this weekend
Mosport isn't a big braking track, but I think I like these.
06-13-2012, 06:08 PM
#22
On my C2S I was doing the wheel and pad swap for track days because the Pagids squeeled like a 30 year old bus. For the GT3, I just got a set of PFC08's at Izzones recommendation. No bed in, straight to the track and they were great. They also do not squeal on the street. I won't be doing the pad swap anymore and I won't be going back to Pagid.
06-13-2012, 09:48 PM
#23
Intermediate
On my C2S I was doing the wheel and pad swap for track days because the Pagids squeeled like a 30 year old bus. For the GT3, I just got a set of PFC08's at Izzones recommendation. No bed in, straight to the track and they were great. They also do not squeal on the street. I won't be doing the pad swap anymore and I won't be going back to Pagid.
06-13-2012, 11:47 PM
#27
Race Director
Also maybe your track is different from wear I track but 20+ days on a set of front or even rear rotors is way way way beyond what I get...5 or 6 maybe for the fronts at Sebring....pads and rotors are toast.
Oh and welcome to the forum!
Last edited by mdrums; 06-14-2012 at 06:02 PM.
06-14-2012, 12:52 AM
#28
Intermediate
You and I have the same brakes...I have a Carrera GTS....Mark at OG Racing has PCF08 in stock for our cars.
Also maybe your track is different from wear I track but 20+ days on a set of front or even rear rotors is way way way beyond what I get...5 or 6 maybe for the fronts at Sebring....pads and rotors are toast.
Oh and welcome to the forum!
Also maybe your track is different from wear I track but 20+ days on a set of front or even rear rotors is way way way beyond what I get...5 or 6 maybe for the fronts at Sebring....pads and rotors are toast.
Oh and welcome to the forum!
I got about 10 days on one set of front pads (Pagid RS29) and I took them down to 5mm pad material. My second set of front pads is at 8mm. VIR kills a set of front pads, but Summit point is not as hard on them, especially the Shenandoah circuit. After four days of VIR, the fronts were about half thickness (6-7mm), so I would only get about 5 to 6 days of use on front pads at VIR.
The rear pads however only show about 3mm to 4mm wear after 20 track days. It seems amazing. I would like a little more brake torque in the rear.
I love OGRacing. I get what I need from them the next day via UPS.
07-15-2012, 02:10 PM
#30
Intermediate
Last week I replaced a worn set of Pagid yellow RS29 all around on GiroDisc rotors with RS29 in front, and RS14 black in rear. Bed-in procedural: 10 medium pressure stops from 75-40 followed by 4 harder stops (threshold) from 75-40 with two light cleaner-stops between the threshold stops. Front pads had about 2mm of visible white where the yellow paint had turned to ash.
For the first time I have no brake pad squeal on and off the track even at slower speeds and light brake pressure, and I did not take the time to bevel the leading and trailing edges (like stock pads) of the Pagid brake pads.
So I do not know what the difference is this time. Perhaps I hit the sweet spot when I bedded in the pads, or perhaps it is because when I swapped out the worn Pagids with the new Pagids in-between track days. In other words, I did not have any OEM pad residue on the rotors.
For the first time I have no brake pad squeal on and off the track even at slower speeds and light brake pressure, and I did not take the time to bevel the leading and trailing edges (like stock pads) of the Pagid brake pads.
So I do not know what the difference is this time. Perhaps I hit the sweet spot when I bedded in the pads, or perhaps it is because when I swapped out the worn Pagids with the new Pagids in-between track days. In other words, I did not have any OEM pad residue on the rotors.
