Centerlocks - I'm out! ....Hello 5-lug conversion!
02-05-2013, 03:49 PM
#243
Rennlist Member
Recall letter from PCNA specifically states "Porsche has made it possible for your authorized dealer to provide you with a Porsche vehicle to drive". When making the appointment, I made it clear as a bell that I require such a loaner, though I have zero confidence in the word of my dealer staff based on past experience. Tomorrow will tell.
02-18-2013, 12:57 AM
#244
Three Wheelin'
ok so I just put 150 miles of track miles past friday on the new hubs at the rear from the AC05 recall. So I am supposed to log this? This is stupid....
i am probably going to convert to 5 lugs.. as soon as my warranty expires this fall.
We can thank Porsche for making pretty centerlocks.
i am probably going to convert to 5 lugs.. as soon as my warranty expires this fall.
We can thank Porsche for making pretty centerlocks.
02-18-2013, 05:31 PM
#245
Rennlist Member
02-18-2013, 06:37 PM
#246
I bet CL's are not any weaker than an equivalent 5 lug. Porsche just had a design flaw or a bad run of parts in the beginning and now they are doing the timeout/maintenance requirement just to cover their ***.
Look at what Trakcar and Izzone did with their cars at Sebring...thousand of laps no problems and it is a rough, rough track.
Look at what Trakcar and Izzone did with their cars at Sebring...thousand of laps no problems and it is a rough, rough track.
02-19-2013, 04:45 AM
#247
Three Wheelin'
I bet CL's are not any weaker than an equivalent 5 lug. Porsche just had a design flaw or a bad run of parts in the beginning and now they are doing the timeout/maintenance requirement just to cover their ***.
Look at what Trakcar and Izzone did with their cars at Sebring...thousand of laps no problems and it is a rough, rough track.
Look at what Trakcar and Izzone did with their cars at Sebring...thousand of laps no problems and it is a rough, rough track.
02-19-2013, 09:12 AM
#248
Rennlist Member
Missing the point fellas... 2 months ago we all thought like trakcar and Izzone.... User error, user error... Recently even Izzone conceded that the CLs were now on his mind...
Why? Because Porsche, changed the rules with this recall, swapped cars to the latest RS hubs andimplemented a time out protocol of 4200 miles... If they were sorted, why would they need to be replaced every 4200(f)/8400(r)? I can't understand why people can't get their heads around the situation with the CLs...
If the RS parts were the solution, there would be NO maintenance schedule... Porsche will eventually send you all a glossy little insert for your manuals to confirm this and then hopefully we'll all understand that the CLs are farrrrrrrr from sorted unless you enjoy dropping $5-10k every 20 track days!
Why? Because Porsche, changed the rules with this recall, swapped cars to the latest RS hubs andimplemented a time out protocol of 4200 miles... If they were sorted, why would they need to be replaced every 4200(f)/8400(r)? I can't understand why people can't get their heads around the situation with the CLs...
If the RS parts were the solution, there would be NO maintenance schedule... Porsche will eventually send you all a glossy little insert for your manuals to confirm this and then hopefully we'll all understand that the CLs are farrrrrrrr from sorted unless you enjoy dropping $5-10k every 20 track days!
02-19-2013, 09:32 AM
#249
Rennlist Member
Chris, when you put 20K HARD track miles on a car, all components are on your mind.
Still between say 100K hard track miles in RS CL cars, minimal CL maint. And plenty of drunken over torqing, never any faillure or even parts damaged or replaced.
Some manufacturing defect affected the GT3's some wheels fell off. They replaced these now and the lawyers added a track schedule timing out hubs to cover their ***. If these 5-10 cars would not have failed, there would have been no mentioning CL's.
I had issues with wheel bolts stripping, studs breaking etc. with my 5 lugs. OK you need a 4' bar, but with a pedal stop I change my wheels by myself just as fast as 5 lugs and it is super easy. I had an impact gun before and had to charge it, etc. the big long torque wrench fits in a small box and no big deal to take with you. I really dont get the hate.
The only negative is cost to buy the tools and the grease, but if you are a bit careful you dab it on bare handed and i only use it when I go to the track and not even every time.
No real benefit to CL, I agree with that but to me no negatives either.
When I see wheels falling off RS cars that were installed the right way, I may change my mind and spend the 2K to switch to 5 lug, but for the moment you guys worry too much.
Still between say 100K hard track miles in RS CL cars, minimal CL maint. And plenty of drunken over torqing, never any faillure or even parts damaged or replaced.
Some manufacturing defect affected the GT3's some wheels fell off. They replaced these now and the lawyers added a track schedule timing out hubs to cover their ***. If these 5-10 cars would not have failed, there would have been no mentioning CL's.
I had issues with wheel bolts stripping, studs breaking etc. with my 5 lugs. OK you need a 4' bar, but with a pedal stop I change my wheels by myself just as fast as 5 lugs and it is super easy. I had an impact gun before and had to charge it, etc. the big long torque wrench fits in a small box and no big deal to take with you. I really dont get the hate.
The only negative is cost to buy the tools and the grease, but if you are a bit careful you dab it on bare handed and i only use it when I go to the track and not even every time.
No real benefit to CL, I agree with that but to me no negatives either.
When I see wheels falling off RS cars that were installed the right way, I may change my mind and spend the 2K to switch to 5 lug, but for the moment you guys worry too much.
02-19-2013, 09:44 AM
#250
Rennlist Member
Pete, until 2 months ago, I was with you 100 % and you're correct, you guys have killed it with hard driving on those things and no failure... You guys were always my argument and example for CLs. Now, with this maintenance BS, doubt has crept in 
I do hope ur rite champ because splashing $5-10k on hubs every 3 years aint my idea of fun...
I do hope ur rite champ because splashing $5-10k on hubs every 3 years aint my idea of fun...
02-19-2013, 09:54 AM
#251
Rennlist Member
Yes, I understand the doubt, but we have to be realistic about it being a manfucaturer defect that has been fixed.
If you dont understand how to lock a nut than, well you cant fix stupid.
If it really is a problem, than just convert over for the $2500.00 right? Why would CL replacement be more $$?
For now its all lawyer language to me. Like people freaking about Ice mode. If it exists you do something I dont. Remember every one being worried about that when a couple cars crashed blaming Ice mode??
Like people freaking out about coolant leaks. I mean if you are going to track your car for years and years stuff will break. Just run waterwetter or pin the stuff, but again, no 2010 hoses blowing yet!
I assume they will eventually.
If you freak out about CL, you should be freaked out about the other stuff more and buy a Corvette.
If you dont understand how to lock a nut than, well you cant fix stupid.
If it really is a problem, than just convert over for the $2500.00 right? Why would CL replacement be more $$?
For now its all lawyer language to me. Like people freaking about Ice mode. If it exists you do something I dont. Remember every one being worried about that when a couple cars crashed blaming Ice mode??
Like people freaking out about coolant leaks. I mean if you are going to track your car for years and years stuff will break. Just run waterwetter or pin the stuff, but again, no 2010 hoses blowing yet!
I assume they will eventually.
If you freak out about CL, you should be freaked out about the other stuff more and buy a Corvette.
02-20-2013, 02:50 AM
#252
GT3 player par excellence
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
Lifetime Rennlist
Member
i dont think CL is weaker. or more maintenance prob.
i change five lug bearings and hub often too.
i swapped b/c i dont like grease on my hands/gloves/towels/shoes/floor...
i have 3 impact guns, i feel the need to use those power tools which i cannot do on CL
that's about it.
they all have problems.
i change five lug bearings and hub often too.
i swapped b/c i dont like grease on my hands/gloves/towels/shoes/floor...
i have 3 impact guns, i feel the need to use those power tools which i cannot do on CL
that's about it.
they all have problems.
02-20-2013, 04:23 AM
#253
Instructor
CL have hidden failure modes...
Given the pubic information available there is no inspection procedure to determine if the CL need to be replaced (well now one could time out with age). One can torque to spec and have the splines set and still have the hub fail.
This could be due to prior damage (unseen), fatigue (miles), or other causes. Maybe I am missing some conversations but I am not seeing 5 lug wheels fail in anywhere in the same fashion, sure you can forget to torque or leave lugs off but torquing to spec and verifying all the lugs are in place seems like it prevents 99.999% of all 5 lug failures. With CL unless you have access to the internal inspection documents and understand how the CL was maintained one cannot really know if a torqued CL with the splines set is actually safe.
Life is a risk and tracking one's car is a risk, that said we do not track in flip-flops, no helmet, not roll bar, convertibles with 1000hp. There is some expected level of success for all of our mechanical components which figure into our mental equation. If one is not factoring in additional risk for CLs they are fooling themselves. Also for instructors, how can one understand the margin of safety for CL wheels without understanding the history, seeing the car with wheels off and understanding the torque applied?
I guess that is what it boils down to. 5 lugs have a higher margin of safety, CL clearly less (due to complicated procedures, hidden failure modes, limited inspection info and catastrophic failure modes).
I flew for the Navy for 8 years and understand margins of safety in complicated machines/systems. Clearly airplanes would not fly and cars would not race if we required an infinite safety margin so everything is in degrees.
Additional note....
* I will add there is a private (Porsche) inspection document floating around. If you do not have it, find someone who does and understand it. (BTW, I asked a porsche service manager (maybe at mooty's favorite dealer) for any inspection procedures for CLs they told me more than once that they did not exist.) The document adds additional complex inspection criteria to the mix but will give you the best chance of catching a hub problem early (I wish I had it or knew of the content prior to the failure).
The point is one cannot take a quick look at CL hubs and say good enough. There are a bunch of pieces working here but my read is... The wheel absolutely cannot shift on the hub, even a little, any indication of that means loss of torque at some point and the hub should likely be replaced immediately. The nut absolutely has to have proper grease (including the right kind) in the bushing area, this allows proper torquing, without this grease (and slipperiness) in that internal area which transfers force to the wheel you can think you are torquing to spec but you really may or may not be. There are additional pieces like ensure the mating surface have broad contact areas, etc. but one gets the idea.
My 2 cents.
Given the pubic information available there is no inspection procedure to determine if the CL need to be replaced (well now one could time out with age). One can torque to spec and have the splines set and still have the hub fail.
This could be due to prior damage (unseen), fatigue (miles), or other causes. Maybe I am missing some conversations but I am not seeing 5 lug wheels fail in anywhere in the same fashion, sure you can forget to torque or leave lugs off but torquing to spec and verifying all the lugs are in place seems like it prevents 99.999% of all 5 lug failures. With CL unless you have access to the internal inspection documents and understand how the CL was maintained one cannot really know if a torqued CL with the splines set is actually safe.
Life is a risk and tracking one's car is a risk, that said we do not track in flip-flops, no helmet, not roll bar, convertibles with 1000hp. There is some expected level of success for all of our mechanical components which figure into our mental equation. If one is not factoring in additional risk for CLs they are fooling themselves. Also for instructors, how can one understand the margin of safety for CL wheels without understanding the history, seeing the car with wheels off and understanding the torque applied?
I guess that is what it boils down to. 5 lugs have a higher margin of safety, CL clearly less (due to complicated procedures, hidden failure modes, limited inspection info and catastrophic failure modes).
I flew for the Navy for 8 years and understand margins of safety in complicated machines/systems. Clearly airplanes would not fly and cars would not race if we required an infinite safety margin so everything is in degrees.
Additional note....
* I will add there is a private (Porsche) inspection document floating around. If you do not have it, find someone who does and understand it. (BTW, I asked a porsche service manager (maybe at mooty's favorite dealer) for any inspection procedures for CLs they told me more than once that they did not exist.) The document adds additional complex inspection criteria to the mix but will give you the best chance of catching a hub problem early (I wish I had it or knew of the content prior to the failure).
The point is one cannot take a quick look at CL hubs and say good enough. There are a bunch of pieces working here but my read is... The wheel absolutely cannot shift on the hub, even a little, any indication of that means loss of torque at some point and the hub should likely be replaced immediately. The nut absolutely has to have proper grease (including the right kind) in the bushing area, this allows proper torquing, without this grease (and slipperiness) in that internal area which transfers force to the wheel you can think you are torquing to spec but you really may or may not be. There are additional pieces like ensure the mating surface have broad contact areas, etc. but one gets the idea.
My 2 cents.
Last edited by gstahl; 02-20-2013 at 01:32 PM. Reason: Added info on porsche document
02-20-2013, 04:43 AM
#254
Three Wheelin'
I think we are forgetting why we even track our cars. It is for fun or to be a better driver or for the whole experience of it. I agree with everyone for their input.... Some say we worry too much and we do.... Some say every car/component has its problems Nd that is true. Some are victims of CL failure and fortunate enough to tell us their side of the story.
Bottom line... I think we all know Porsche didn't design this thing dummy proof or with big margin of safety.
Either we deal w this or convert to 5 lugs or go cry in the corner and drive a Prius and save the planet =)
Bottom line... I think we all know Porsche didn't design this thing dummy proof or with big margin of safety.
Either we deal w this or convert to 5 lugs or go cry in the corner and drive a Prius and save the planet =)
02-20-2013, 04:49 AM
#255
Rennlist Member
Exactly Geoff... So well said...
I was an advocate of CLs so far as I felt that the failures were due to user error rather than system failure.
Yes, there have been guys here that have done 15-20000 miles on a set without failure, many times the newly implemented time out rate BUT all of this works on statistics, and effectively at 4200miles plus whatever margin Porsche would have applied, there will be statistically significant failures... If you fluke the set that lasts 50000 miles, you're laughing but if you fluke a weakened set that time out at 5000 miles and you've ignored the time out procedure yet have maintained them perfectly, well snap and you know what that means!
The implementation of a time out schedule means that beyond their stated time out schedules, you're playing roulette... Black, you win... Red, into the wall you go and as Geoff rightly pointed out, the system doesn't provide visible forewarning of a pending failure...
I was an advocate of CLs so far as I felt that the failures were due to user error rather than system failure.
Yes, there have been guys here that have done 15-20000 miles on a set without failure, many times the newly implemented time out rate BUT all of this works on statistics, and effectively at 4200miles plus whatever margin Porsche would have applied, there will be statistically significant failures... If you fluke the set that lasts 50000 miles, you're laughing but if you fluke a weakened set that time out at 5000 miles and you've ignored the time out procedure yet have maintained them perfectly, well snap and you know what that means!
The implementation of a time out schedule means that beyond their stated time out schedules, you're playing roulette... Black, you win... Red, into the wall you go and as Geoff rightly pointed out, the system doesn't provide visible forewarning of a pending failure...