997 GT3 sound at Laguna.
01-09-2007, 12:04 PM
#16
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Originally Posted by Carrera GT
I wanted mainly to be sure you had a heads up on the sound issue in case you have some supertrapps sitting around the garage, otherwise it's an easy technique to avoid the scowling of the sound *****.
As for 6 vs 7, that will have to wait until I get a little more seat time in the 7.
For today, I have a convoluted sort of relativity to suggest: I'd say if you have a 996 GT3 and you're fretting about not having a 7 coming, forget about it; the 6 is as quick as the 7 and taps the adrenal gland with the same large bore syringe. If you have a 7 coming, you're very lucky and you're in for some great track and road driving. And given the prodiguous capabilities of the 997 GT3, the RS is surely going to be capable of extraordinary cornering speeds.
To elaborate, in comparing the two cars back to back in successive 20 minutes sessions, I believe it would take a exceptional pro driver to extract the fractions of the 7-- the two cars are quite different yet the same. The 7 is settled and sure footed while the 6 is jostling and working the tyres, every bump has an effect and gear changes must be smooth and timed to avoid unsettling the suspension. The 7 is planted and all but unshakeable. Mistakes are absorbed and there seems to be an unlimited number of trips to the wishing well when the driver wants to tighten the line or run deeper on those ceramic brakes or pour on power earlier. The 6 is capable of the levels of tire-frying cornering and leaves thick, black parallel lines through the apex and track out of every fast corner, but it demands care and attention from the driver.
I should add the 6 was perfectly set up by Christian at Carlsen Porsche using the Kussmaul specs including ride height. He also did the 7 to the "race circuit" specs. My 7 arrived too low in the rear and a little low in the front. It's now handling with great confidence and capable, almost neutral handling. I'll examine the sways tomorrow -- one or two pics of the car going through five suggested a little excess body roll. Jumping down the Corkscrew, the 6 discernibly lifted both inside tyres, but the 7 seems to remain on the ground despite several different lines and speeds. The 6 had the advantage of being able to stay in gear all the way through 8, but keeping the rpm down, the 7 had to shift, but it was happy to shift (if smoothly) and never put a foot wrong. I know I could make the same shift in the 6, but it would require concentration and quick hands to catch any stray momentum.
The thing the 7 really does better is eat up the highway miles giving you a comfortable office when the call comes to engage a provocative section of road.
I'd also say the 7 seemed to really take advantage of the mid range torque. I drove another 997 GT3 and it felt a little thin and unresponsive in the mid rpm range, but my car was decidedly powerful in the mid range as if it were a larger displacement engine. Even short shifting, the 7 was lapping the field in Advanced today with only a couple of very well prepared dedicated track cars staying away. We've all heard it a million times but I was literally at 1/4 and 1/2 throttle ****ing at 5000rpm. And I had a passenger and I was waiting for point-bys, so it's not as if I was wringing its neck, it's just a very competent at getting the job done.
Well, some more laps tomorrow and I'll try to assemble first impressions, but again, it's all just subjective. But it was a great opportunity to have the 996 and 997 side by side for a day at Laguna. Great stuff. I'll try to get some bullet cam stuff tomorrow.
As for 6 vs 7, that will have to wait until I get a little more seat time in the 7.
For today, I have a convoluted sort of relativity to suggest: I'd say if you have a 996 GT3 and you're fretting about not having a 7 coming, forget about it; the 6 is as quick as the 7 and taps the adrenal gland with the same large bore syringe. If you have a 7 coming, you're very lucky and you're in for some great track and road driving. And given the prodiguous capabilities of the 997 GT3, the RS is surely going to be capable of extraordinary cornering speeds.
To elaborate, in comparing the two cars back to back in successive 20 minutes sessions, I believe it would take a exceptional pro driver to extract the fractions of the 7-- the two cars are quite different yet the same. The 7 is settled and sure footed while the 6 is jostling and working the tyres, every bump has an effect and gear changes must be smooth and timed to avoid unsettling the suspension. The 7 is planted and all but unshakeable. Mistakes are absorbed and there seems to be an unlimited number of trips to the wishing well when the driver wants to tighten the line or run deeper on those ceramic brakes or pour on power earlier. The 6 is capable of the levels of tire-frying cornering and leaves thick, black parallel lines through the apex and track out of every fast corner, but it demands care and attention from the driver.
I should add the 6 was perfectly set up by Christian at Carlsen Porsche using the Kussmaul specs including ride height. He also did the 7 to the "race circuit" specs. My 7 arrived too low in the rear and a little low in the front. It's now handling with great confidence and capable, almost neutral handling. I'll examine the sways tomorrow -- one or two pics of the car going through five suggested a little excess body roll. Jumping down the Corkscrew, the 6 discernibly lifted both inside tyres, but the 7 seems to remain on the ground despite several different lines and speeds. The 6 had the advantage of being able to stay in gear all the way through 8, but keeping the rpm down, the 7 had to shift, but it was happy to shift (if smoothly) and never put a foot wrong. I know I could make the same shift in the 6, but it would require concentration and quick hands to catch any stray momentum.
The thing the 7 really does better is eat up the highway miles giving you a comfortable office when the call comes to engage a provocative section of road.
I'd also say the 7 seemed to really take advantage of the mid range torque. I drove another 997 GT3 and it felt a little thin and unresponsive in the mid rpm range, but my car was decidedly powerful in the mid range as if it were a larger displacement engine. Even short shifting, the 7 was lapping the field in Advanced today with only a couple of very well prepared dedicated track cars staying away. We've all heard it a million times but I was literally at 1/4 and 1/2 throttle ****ing at 5000rpm. And I had a passenger and I was waiting for point-bys, so it's not as if I was wringing its neck, it's just a very competent at getting the job done.
Well, some more laps tomorrow and I'll try to assemble first impressions, but again, it's all just subjective. But it was a great opportunity to have the 996 and 997 side by side for a day at Laguna. Great stuff. I'll try to get some bullet cam stuff tomorrow.
According to your review, I'd prefer 996 GT3 charasteristics (needs more attention, can bite your ***, not so forgiving, comfy etc).
Thanks for taking the time to do this.
01-09-2007, 12:28 PM
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The current track surface at Laguna makes the cars squeal. We get R Compound tires squealing there now, where it didn't happen before. It'll be interesting to see what happens when the re-resurface the track in May.
BTW - Turndowns will maybe get you 1db lower..2db if you're lucky but I don't think it'll do 3db-4db. Also, be careful with them, I saw the back of the Caddy who had his bumper cover melted because the turndown is wider than the original tips and there was less space between it and the bumper cover.
BTW - Turndowns will maybe get you 1db lower..2db if you're lucky but I don't think it'll do 3db-4db. Also, be careful with them, I saw the back of the Caddy who had his bumper cover melted because the turndown is wider than the original tips and there was less space between it and the bumper cover.
01-09-2007, 12:43 PM
#18
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Sound was a big problem on Sunday. The 996 could go up the hill in 3rd flat and next to the mic. The 997 couldn't crawl up there in 4th with 1/4 throttle (because it was over 4000rpm and the exhaust switches to "baratone" regardless of the switch position.) So I resorted to 1/2 throttle and 5th gear to stay under 4000, and yet avoid lugging below 3000-3500. So it was quite the challenge to judge the traffic and the entry speed to come through T5 a little quick and yet then barely accelerate up the hill, again, because I didn't want the engine to be lugging at low rpm.
On Monday, after a quick trip to Home Depot, I could run up the hill in any configuration (switch on or off, throttle position and gear selection of my choosing) and even did a wide open 7000 rpm fly-by in 3rd (must be 100mph) in loud mode but no complaints. Of course, they're not consistent and they tend to relax in the afternoons once they've meat-balled all the really loud cars and those drivers are in the paddock burning their hands on their exhausts ...
On Monday, after a quick trip to Home Depot, I could run up the hill in any configuration (switch on or off, throttle position and gear selection of my choosing) and even did a wide open 7000 rpm fly-by in 3rd (must be 100mph) in loud mode but no complaints. Of course, they're not consistent and they tend to relax in the afternoons once they've meat-balled all the really loud cars and those drivers are in the paddock burning their hands on their exhausts ...
01-09-2007, 01:01 PM
#19
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Originally Posted by Flying Finn
Excellent review, especially since you had 6 & 7 back to back.
According to your review, I'd prefer 996 GT3 charasteristics (needs more attention, can bite your ***, not so forgiving, comfy etc).
Thanks for taking the time to do this.
According to your review, I'd prefer 996 GT3 charasteristics (needs more attention, can bite your ***, not so forgiving, comfy etc).
Thanks for taking the time to do this.
If I wasn't stupid enough to spend the extra $50K, the 997 wouldn't make sense for a purely track-oriented owner. If I was entirely happy with the 996 appearance, again, the 997 would lose out. But the 997 is a very good looking 911 and appeals to my "died in the wool" 993 preferences. And I still think the 993 is the car that will remain in the garage and be something my kids will have to explain to their kids when I'm dead.
Yesterday, as you've read, I think the 997 went a long -- and fast -- way to acquitting itself for its higher price. Given the RS has no more oomph in the engine bay -- which surprises me no end -- you have to imagine Porsche will be "incrementing" the model sooner rather than later. I think a 4.0 engine close to 500hp and still spinning freely to 8500rpm would suffice.
01-09-2007, 02:42 PM
#20
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Originally Posted by Carrera GT
Having both and having them both dialed in to my liking was a rare chance and two days at the track in January with sun and dry track was equally good luck.
If I wasn't stupid enough to spend the extra $50K, the 997 wouldn't make sense for a purely track-oriented owner. If I was entirely happy with the 996 appearance, again, the 997 would lose out. But the 997 is a very good looking 911 and appeals to my "died in the wool" 993 preferences. And I still think the 993 is the car that will remain in the garage and be something my kids will have to explain to their kids when I'm dead.
Yesterday, as you've read, I think the 997 went a long -- and fast -- way to acquitting itself for its higher price. Given the RS has no more oomph in the engine bay -- which surprises me no end -- you have to imagine Porsche will be "incrementing" the model sooner rather than later. I think a 4.0 engine close to 500hp and still spinning freely to 8500rpm would suffice.
If I wasn't stupid enough to spend the extra $50K, the 997 wouldn't make sense for a purely track-oriented owner. If I was entirely happy with the 996 appearance, again, the 997 would lose out. But the 997 is a very good looking 911 and appeals to my "died in the wool" 993 preferences. And I still think the 993 is the car that will remain in the garage and be something my kids will have to explain to their kids when I'm dead.
Yesterday, as you've read, I think the 997 went a long -- and fast -- way to acquitting itself for its higher price. Given the RS has no more oomph in the engine bay -- which surprises me no end -- you have to imagine Porsche will be "incrementing" the model sooner rather than later. I think a 4.0 engine close to 500hp and still spinning freely to 8500rpm would suffice.
"And I still think the 993 is the car that will remain in the garage and be something my kids will have to explain to their kids when I'm dead."
This is what I'm doing, I'd already have a GT3 if I wasn't. 993 is at some point going to my older son, selling it is out of the question. Younger will then get water pumper (GT3 or 2) and they both will be the "keepers" of those cars, they're not allowed to sell, only pass on to the next generation.
01-10-2007, 01:54 AM
#22
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Originally Posted by gbogh3
Great write ups and comparisons. Sounds like A Lot of fun.
Now, if only I could post a pic to Rennlist without resizing it to a postage stamp pixel count ...
01-10-2007, 09:29 AM
#23
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Originally Posted by Carrera GT
I am a river to my people.
Now, if only I could post a pic to Rennlist without resizing it to a postage stamp pixel count ...
Now, if only I could post a pic to Rennlist without resizing it to a postage stamp pixel count ...
01-10-2007, 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Carrera GT
I am a river to my people.
Now, if only I could post a pic to Rennlist without resizing it to a postage stamp pixel count ...
Now, if only I could post a pic to Rennlist without resizing it to a postage stamp pixel count ...
I am new to the board and plan on pick up one of these beasts which would be a good stable mate for my M5. So I figured I should lurk for a while and learn a little bit
01-10-2007, 03:39 PM
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As others have said, Carrera GT, great write-up! I thoroughly enjoyed reading your balanced analysis of the two cars. You should contact Excellence Magazine and submit your thoughts as a possible article. I have worked with Pete and he is great!
I just took delivery of a new GT3 last week and can hardly wait to get it out to Road Atlanta which, is being repaved. It looks like March will be the first opportunity for a track outing.
You said that you had your 997 aligned to the “race circuit” specs. Just to clarify, and not having the owner’s manual in front of me, are you referring the specs published in the owner’s manual for competition (not sure of the exact heading)?
I have a similar soft spot in my heart for the 993. It is as durable as it is beautiful. I agree that the 997 goes a long way in capturing the passion the 993 exudes. Interestingly enough, and I wonder if others are experiencing this too, the 996 has started to look very good to me. I have attributed this to the thought that as it is no longer the current 911, I don’t expect as much from it and can look at it much less critically.
Thanks again for taking the time to write such a brilliant review.
Hank
I just took delivery of a new GT3 last week and can hardly wait to get it out to Road Atlanta which, is being repaved. It looks like March will be the first opportunity for a track outing.
You said that you had your 997 aligned to the “race circuit” specs. Just to clarify, and not having the owner’s manual in front of me, are you referring the specs published in the owner’s manual for competition (not sure of the exact heading)?
I have a similar soft spot in my heart for the 993. It is as durable as it is beautiful. I agree that the 997 goes a long way in capturing the passion the 993 exudes. Interestingly enough, and I wonder if others are experiencing this too, the 996 has started to look very good to me. I have attributed this to the thought that as it is no longer the current 911, I don’t expect as much from it and can look at it much less critically.
Thanks again for taking the time to write such a brilliant review.
Hank
01-10-2007, 03:42 PM
#26
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Originally Posted by gbogh3
I am new to the board and plan on pick up one of these beasts which would be a good stable mate for my M5. So I figured I should lurk for a while and learn a little bit
01-10-2007, 03:45 PM
#27
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Originally Posted by Hank Cohn
You should contact Excellence Magazine and submit your thoughts as a possible article. I have worked with Pete and he is great!
01-10-2007, 04:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Carrera GT
... um ... lurking means not posting ... : ) ... just kidding! Welcome!
Lurking = Not Post
Stocking = Posting pictures you never knew I had
Thanks, I am sure I will have lots of questions over the coming months.
g
01-10-2007, 04:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Carrera GT
I've met Pete and we spent half a day playing with the 997 vs 996 GT3. It was great to be involved, but Excellence has amply qualified contributors. I'm looking forward to their comparison of the two generations of the GT3.
Thanks again for the read. I enjoyed it.
Hank
01-10-2007, 04:24 PM
#30
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Originally Posted by Hank Cohn
While reading model comparisons in automobile magazines that you trust, such as Excellence magazine, is a great benchmark, it is often equally, if not more, informative to hear or read an owner's point of view. I found your review well laid out, thoughtful and devoid of any apparent bias.
Thanks again for the read. I enjoyed it.
Hank
Thanks again for the read. I enjoyed it.
Hank
I read the mags mostly for the photos, the tech and the detail articles. I fail to see the value in a print media source of "news" these days. I'm told excellence-mag.com is going to be focus of effort.
Cheers,