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New member but long time beneficiary of the remarkable knowledge/information on this forum. I have been in the market for my first 911 for several months. I have always wanted one, but am finally taking the plunge into ownership. I’ve been monitoring Craigslist, AutoTrader, eBay, forums, and PCA listings for a while, looking for the perfect car.
I recently came across a 2005 997 c2 (base model) that is priced right, has all of the options I want, and comes with extremely extensive service records from the previous two owners (about an inch thick, all maintenance performed at dealership). The car has about 70,000 miles. For all intents and purposes, it's exactly what I've been looking for.
It is being sold by a local used car dealership that deals in (and services) Porsches (primarily air cooled, but also water cooled) and a wide array of exotics and semi-exotics (Maserati, Ferrari, old Rolls Royces, etc). The dealership is reputable and very well reviewed online. I’ve met the owner, and he seems to be a very upfront and honest guy.
To enhance the marketability of the car, they went ahead and proactively replaced the IMS bearing with an LN engineering version (a bearing, not the oil fed IMS solution), replaced the rear main seal, and also replaced the air oil separator. Apparently they had gotten so many questions from prospective buyers about the IMS that they just decided to swap it and be done with it. The car ran well prior to the swap, verifiable by the recent service records.
Doubling as a service shop, the dealer had its own mechanic do the work. The mechanic has worked there for 20 years, and they seem to think highly of him.
However…after replacing these parts and buttoning the car back up, they started it up and found that ‘the timing had jumped one tooth’ (dealer’s words). Not sure how they know it was just one tooth, but the car does run, albeit somewhat roughly and with a CEL (I have seen it running). It sounds to me like they obviously didn’t use a tool to lock the camshafts in place while doing the IMS swap.
They are fixing this problem over the weekend or early next week, and assure me that it will be a very easy thing to do and that nothing is wrong with the car. I, however, am concerned that the job was not done perfectly the first time. I do believe that the mechanic is experienced and probably somewhat proficient with Porsche motors (given that he works on them all the time, I’ve been in the shop and saw three 993’s with their motors out and being serviced), but he obviously made a mistake this time around.
Like I said, the car is priced right, does have the LN IMS bearing, and is exactly what I’m looking for in terms of options/color/condition. But I’m uneasy about this, and wanted to ping the forum for advice. What do you guys think? Is there a good chance that significant damage could have been done? Is this something that is easy to evaluate in a PPI? I would be having a PPI done by an extremely reputable local Porsche mechanic.
I look forward to hearing from the group and (hopefully) having a 911 in the near future, whether it’s this one or another one.
Totally on the same page with you - I wouldn't be making a decision until it has been fixed, test driven, and inspected by my mechanic.
What I'm really asking is: is this an automatic 'walk away' situation, regardless of how it drives/results of a ppi? In other words, are there things that could have happened/damage that could have occurred that wouldn't necessarily be picked up on a test drive or ppi? And if so, how likely do you think that is?
Or, conversely, do you think that this isn't that big of a deal as long as it gets fixed and I have a ppi done?
If the timing jumped a tooth you could have bent valve stems and nicked pistons. I would run away from this one. One tooth is probably at least 5 or so degrees of timing. It's a pretty bad mechanic that can't properly set the camshaft timing.
If the timing jumped a tooth you could have bent valve stems and nicked pistons. I would run away from this one. One tooth is probably at least 5 or so degrees of timing. It's a pretty bad mechanic that can't properly set the camshaft timing.
Wow, I didn't know that one tooth could cause a piston/valve collision. I had specifically asked the seller if this may have happened and he said it would have needed to jump quite a few teeth to suffer that outcome.
I don't think the issue is that the mechanic didn't set timing correctly. I think the issue is that timing inadvertently jumped because he didn't use a locking tool (what tended to happen when people replaced their IMS bearings using the old Pelican instructions, which didn't advise using the tool).
Ive taken cams out of and put back in cars and motorcycles many times and never had one jump. They don't just jump on their own unless you messed up the initial settings or did not install the cam chain tensioners correctly. As for it takes it many teeth to be off to cause damage? Ask him how many and look that up in the service manual for us.
Ive taken cams out of and put back in cars and motorcycles many times and never had one jump. They don't just jump on their own unless you messed up the initial settings or did not install the cam chain tensioners correctly. As for it takes it many teeth to be off to cause damage? Ask him how many and look that up in the service manual for us.
I hear ya. I have read a few accounts of folks tweaking their timing doing the DIY IMS swap. I'm not sure exactly what happened in those instances (I believe it involved using set screws to hold the IMS sprocket in place) Assuming something similar went wrong in this instance, but I'm not sure what exactly caused it.
Is there a good way to evaluate whether there was a piston-valve collision? I wonder if a leak down test would most likely reveal any damaged or bent valves?
I'm hopeful that there is a way to evaluate the situation and not automatically walk away, but I'm absolutely willing to walk away if there really isn't a good path forward.
Thanks again everyone, enormously helpful community.
If pistons and valves hit, the car won't run well even after they reset the cam timing.
The reason I said just let them fix it and get a PPI is because I don't buy into the "off one tooth" story.
Running rough and a CEL could be any of a hundred different things. I'd just consider the car off the table until it is running right and then if you're still interested, your PPI can tell you more about it.
There is no way to tell if the valve stem is bent or worse unless you take it all apart. I would go find another one and walk away from it. And I would never use that shop for anything. If they get it timed properly there may be problems that come up later.
There is no way to tell if the valve stem is bent or worse unless you take it all apart. I would go find another one and walk away from it. And I would never use that shop for anything. If they get it timed properly there may be problems that come up later.
Thanks. This is really what I'm asking about...if there could be asymptomatic damage lurking that would go undetected by a PPI.
Major bummer. I thought I had found the perfect car! I wish they had just left it alone, reduced the price by whatever they spent on parts, and I would have had the IMS replaced myself by a reputable shop...the car was a real gem.
Thanks. This is really what I'm asking about...if there could be asymptomatic damage lurking that would go undetected by a PPI.
Major bummer. I thought I had found the perfect car! I wish they had just left it alone, reduced the price by whatever they spent on parts, and I would have had the IMS replaced myself by a reputable shop...the car was a real gem.
Dont listen to just what one negative person on the forum says- The dealer was honest & upfront with you, and the price is right & its the car you want with great service records & IMS done..Let them fix it, take it for a long drive, have an indy check it out and do a ppi (you can ask dealer to now pay for ppi since youre worried about the issue) THEN you make your decision.
Dont listen to just what one negative person on the forum says- The dealer was honest & upfront with you, and the price is right & its the car you want with great service records & IMS done..Let them fix it, take it for a long drive, have an indy check it out and do a ppi (you can ask dealer to now pay for ppi since youre worried about the issue) THEN you make your decision.
Thanks very much Tarek. I think I'll do that! I'm still 'first in line' on the car with a refundable deposit, so I'll wait and see how the drive and PPI go.
There is no way to tell if the valve stem is bent or worse unless you take it all apart.
True the best way is to tear down the engine. But a simpler diagnosis is via a compression check. If a valve is bent then it will not seat properly causing compression leaks. And while the spark plugs are out during the compression check you might as well insert a camera for a visual inspection of the valves and cylinder wall.
OP - Some good advice here. There is no way I would trust this seller's opinion on the condition of the car. But before bailing I'd let them fix it. Then if and only if it runs well, pay a 3rd party for a PPI, including compression, leak down, camera inspection, and DME overrev report. You need someone on your side checking out this particular car especially since it is not running properly right now.
05-11-2017, 08:59 PM
To buy or not to buy - 997 C2 with a timing issue
