jeffm

So every 6-8months I start looking at 997's and begin to think this is the time to trade in my Cayman S. Prices for 997.1's are still looking reasonable, but the cars are at the 10 year old mark and I don't see the prices necessarily reflecting that.

I've found some decent 05 and 06 base models hovering in the low $30k's, but when I put the values into KBB, they don't quite match the market. Do you guys think that this gives any room to help to negotiate the price further?

For example, I've found a 2005 base with around 69,000 miles listed at $30-31,000 private party. When I punch the numbers into KBB, the value only reaches $26,000....and that's for the Excellent Condition mark! For comparison, the same vehicle is valued at $28,000 for a Dealer offered car.

What do you guys seem as "fair and reasonable"? Any recent purchases for my own comparison purposes?

Thanks

Bruce In Philly

The real prices are the Mannheim auction prices. These represent the price floor. Any dealer with any used car will sell the car at auction before selling lower than that.

You need to find a car "broker" near you who has the membership/license to see auction sales data. Other than that, the KBB etc are close but not accurate. Also, from my experience with the auction data (I no longer have access), options mean nothing despite what a seller will tell you. The issues for auction are "Condition, miles, year, type, engine, transmission, color" and that is about it from what I recall.

You really need the latest auction prices to be fully prepared.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

Dennis C

I agree. Using KBB to determine the value of your car is like using Zillow to determine the value of your home. It's one data point, and it's usually not reflective of the true market. KBB really struggles with cars like Porsches or other high-end cars.

jeffm

Good info.

Anyone care to share any recent purchase prices?

JayRace

KBB is a good reference for cars like an Accord or Camary where you have a few fixed option packages and a large sampling of sales data but when it comes to higher end cars with hundreds of possible options and color combos it's just not an accurate tool. Also, if you are looking for a rare color combo or specific options beyond the norm then expect to pay a decent premium on a 997.

Redline911

You can pick up a 997 for $26k-$28k. Have you looked at one at this price point? My bet is they are rough cars with past due maintenance. My 2 cents is that it's worth a few extra grand to buy a private party car from an owner who's done the proper maintenance. At the 10 year mark you want the previous owner to have replaced the water pump, brake lines perhaps, coolant tank, starter cable, etc. Why buy the absolute least expensive car?

Muscam1

I'm in the same situation - KBB NADA and other sites seem to reflect a much lower price (for like P-car) than what I'm seeing for private or dealer sales. Makes it looks like prices are all over the place.


Wasn't aware that Mannheim auction prices are floor prices before a dealer will send to auction - good to know.


I agree with Redline911 - knowing the history and buying from an owner that has taken care of these cars is important! Also - gotta keep away from getting too emotional in the buy and I'm finding that this forum is great at level setting new buyers








I

jeffm

Has nothing to do with buying the least expensive car, it's just trying to understand the value in today's market.

My 2006 Cayman S has 80,000 miles and is up to date with service, including new clutch and flywheel, brake fluid service, new plugs, etc... That said, the going value on this car is around $21k and would hope to get it with $4000 in maintenance done in the last 6 months. I'm questioning what the value is in the early 997....is it really with $10k more for a similarly optioned car....maybe? Without getting into the mid engine vs rear engine debate, I can't see paying an extra, say $15k, for rear seats and 30 more hp.

Comanche_699

The market is funny like that. Where I live a dealer will value my car using KBB al day long and then seemingly pull a number out of the sky when valuing his. Examples abound but the basic story is, a dealer may have an 07 c4s (or t4s in my case) roughly 50,000 miles (give or take) and no service history. He is asking $55k. No wiggle room. My car (06 C2S cab) in trade is 'worth' $25k to the dealer.

Not that I would, but that kind of chatter makes me want to slap the guy.

Now, removing emotion from it, and being objective the decision becomes quite easy. Keep the C2S and buy some new coilovers.

Or a new exhaust. Or a tune. Or some track days. (You get the idea)

At this point my car on kbb is probably worth less than a 1979 911 SC with 180,000 miles on it. But that's the market. I always hear about 997's trading hands in the low 30's with under 40,000 miles on them, but I never see those kind of prices around here. Even base Carreras are still mid 30's to low 40's with the S and up still in the mid 40's.

I like Bruce's thought about the auction figures, and frankly any data point is a negotiating tool, but ultimately will come down to the seller's incentive to sell.

For me, as the mileage climbs on my car (97k and climbing) the market value gets silly. Makes it real easy to hang on to.

I think you can find great values out there and get out of your Cayman easily enough, but I think maybe just plan to be mid 30's with some room to move instead of trying to find the low 20's one out there. Even at $38k for a reasonably low mileage 997s you're going to be pretty stoked. It's still a 100,000 dollar car when you step on that go pedal.

My (more than) 2¢

D

Macster

Fair has nothing to do with the price.

As a general rule when I am in the market for a car I use www.kbb.com or www.nada.com to get a feel for the value of the car I'm considering. There could be other sites, sources of price info. I sometimes get price/sale info from talking to car dealers, other owners, recent buyers, reading/following online postings by buyers recent buyers. I track "inventory" at dealer lots to see how quickly cars are moving. Cars that take 30 days or more to move are slow sellers and this tells me the price can be negotiated. I also follow candidate cars and try to learn what they sell for to try to get an idea of the market prices.

As a buyer naturally I will latch on to the lowest trade-in, private, retail sale values.

It is not my job to help the seller justify getting a higher price for his car. It is not my job to reconcile the differences -- if any -- between the sites and their prices.

Auction prices are nice but my experience is these are scarce. But if you can get ahold of some they can help you know what the car is worth wholesale. With this then you have a starting point.

As I like to say a used car if it is worth owning at all is worth somewhere between its trade-in/wholesale value -- or as low as the seller is willing to go -- and however much a buyer is willing to pay.

I dare say always a car's asking price is higher than what the car will sell for. This of course ignores the occasional sale in which the buyer pays the asking price. When I see a car offered for sale almost always my research indicates the car can be had for less. If I find a car with a below market price this instantly sets off warning bells. It is not the nature of the used car business to offer cars at below market. Something's amiss.

Based on what you are seeing coming from KBB or possibly NADA I think you are justified in offering less. Why not?

You can help your case by making list of comparable cars with prices, details, and use this to show the seller his car is not the only car available. You have to make it clear that you are going to buy a car and today -- well, when you visit the car you have selected -- and if you don't make a suitable deal on the car you are looking at then you will go to your next car on the list and buy that car.

The idea is you must convince the seller by your words and actions and behavior that if the seller if he sees you walk away without buying the car he has lost a sale to another seller. This puts pressure on the seller to take your offer or at least negotiate and you end up getting the car for less than its asking price.

Remember, price is not fact, only an opinion. The seller is entitled to his opinion, but so is the buyer.

Last but not least price is important but so is condition. The saying is a used car buyer is only concerned about 3 things: Price. Condition. Price.

Be sure you know the car you are looking at is worth owning.

Redline911

I think we're actually in the same boat. I'm ready for a different car too but my '05 with 56k miles is worth somewhere around $28k-$32k and the next "step up" is a 997.2 for which I'd have to throw in another $20k-$25k. I can't see paying an extra $20k for 20 more hp and a better PCM.

Sounds like we need to keep our cars a bit longer

captainbaker

KBB is a starting point on a long road. There are many factors that will determine a cars true value. A 997 in Souix City SD in January covered by snow, wont get as much traffic as a 997 in Los Angeles in May.

The internet has closed the price gap as sellers and buyers can find each other regardless of location. But nothing beats kicking the tires in person.

To find the cars true value, there must be comps within your search area. The more cars for sale the better the barometer. I also use the 'completed listings' feature on Ebay to see what has sold and what is sitting. CarGurus.com will show you, price history and how long the car has been for sale. Another good tool.

A cheap car can be a good buy depending on what it needs to bring it back to roadworthy condition. Rust, branded titles, fatal engine/transmission issues, extensive body work are all No-Go items for me.

I bought my 997 about a month ago. I had to have a White/Tan 2007+ "S" in manual for less than $45k. Slim pickings with my above criteria. In the 3 months I looked, I didnt find one candidate. Thankfully I found a car local to me on a site I never look at and paid KBB retail. Seller deducted the cost of items discovered during the PPI and the deal was done.

Blu311

I purchased a 997.2 in June and I shopped 997s (both .1 and .2) for nearly two years and the going rate is generally well above KBB value. If you plug my car in KBB today ***2009 base, 66k miles, MT, and minimally optioned with SC, heated comfort seats, bose, and 19 in wheels*** it says KBB PP value is $33k in great condition but there are not for sale nationwide that low - Id say average asking for my car is $43k with a sale price of $38-$40, just guessing. You just have to track the market the best you can, you have to get a feel for it over time in my opinion.

As far as paying $15k more for 'rear seats and 30 more hp', if that's how you see it, stick with the Cayman. But if its $10k more, I would bet that the 997 is still worth $10k more 5 years from now. I see Caymans like other non 911 p-cars over the years (boxster, 968, 944, etc.) in that they will eventually be worth less than $10k. A 911 on the other hand, will pretty much always be worth $20k or more, unless its a high mileage 996. So in the long run, the 911 isn't costing you much more and you get to drive a 911!

cringely

Here's a data point for you. I picked up a 2009 Carrera 2 months ago with 41,000 miles and a 2 year CPO from a CA Porsche dealer for $48,000 + tax/license/etc.
I'd look at the PCNA pre-owned website for higher end reference points.

ace37

Lots of good advice and points here. Right now the market prices are at a low point since it's the dead of winter - typical 997 prices are several grand less than when I bought - great time for buyers!

I'll share my recent purchase experience and the coarse car pricing data points I used that haven't been mentioned.

My Goals Going in:
I started looking for a four-seat sports car this summer, settled on a 911, and was seriously considering a 991S. I had decided to only accept one of 2-3 colors, had quite a few 'no compromises' options, and wanted a car with under 20k miles. I was in no hurry, so I planned to wait a while to find my almost-unicorn car for a fairly good price, which looked to be $70-80k depending on the details. I would keep the car for a longer term. When I got serious I was thinking I might be happier buying a pristine 997.1S (low miles, great condition, almost-unicorn spec) in the low $40s and upgrade a bit sooner - I would probably get 80% of the pleasure with a lot less money tied up in the toy car in the near term. I also kicked around a 964 but was only half serious about it. So that's what I had in mind, and I kept my searches a bit open just in case.

Eventual purchase:
I found and bought my 2011 GTS late this summer for $58k, right at 50% of MSRP. It was a one owner lease trade with no accidents, no blemishes on the history, good options, and I would rate the car's condition as very good rather than excellent. I purchased it from a volume Mercedes dealer that just took it in on trade in for a pittance and wanted to flip it quickly. The $58k was the KBB price minus a grand or so - a KBB sticker was proudly displayed on the car's front window. It was about $10k below what I had expected to see the car listed for from a non-Porsche dealer and about $5-6k less than what I would have offered blindly for this one, all things considered. (not my ideal color, great otherwise)

After the purchase I came to find the KBB value and purchase price seemed to represent a very low outlier rather than a median and my purchase was an excellent deal at that time. I wondered if KBB had just taken the car's lease residuals charts, fit them to a curve, and called it a day. Not super accurate, but without any data to the contrary it's hard to point fingers.

Pricing Data Sources:
The Manheim auction prices are the real deal, but the data isn't freely available to the general public. You might ask on these forums and see if someone with access has the time to look them up for you.

I didn't ask, so here's what I found handy:
A low quality but useful data point is the price estimates from cargurus.com. I don't know where their data comes from, but in my experience it's been much closer to the apparent market value than KBB/NADA for uncommon cars. I don't know if the cargurus info is actually great data - rather KBB/NADA are pretty poor for these cars. It will show you the 'comparable' cars so if a few of them are a poor match you can consider that and adjust your estimate accordingly. My last car was a Nissan 370Z nismo, and while KBB/NADA don't even offer a value for that trim, the cargurus price was within $1k of the offer I accepted. I suspect they've developed an algorithm that estimates by putting together the car's trim level, mileage, asking prices for similar cars, how quickly cars change hands, and then thrown in a bit of magic to put it all together. And mileage has a significant impact on price; check it out by evaluating a few fictitious cars.

One last source that's extremely rough is to just pull the average prices from carefully filtered searches on autotrader.com and cars.com. That's too rough to price a specific car but is still useful in learning the market and as a data point in negotiations.

Perspective:
The more time you have, the more deals you'll be able to consider, and the more likely you are to find a unique build, an unusually good price, or some hybrid of the two. You're spending your time though, so the truth is you've worked to earn the right deal. If the search is a fun thing for you, great, spend lots of time! And if not, decide how much time is worth it and adjust your expectations on the availability of a great build/price.

When you buy it, if you are prone to this, I would not allow yourself to worry any more about prices/deals or other 'better' cars at all. If you overpay to get a perfect build or if you underpay but don't quite match your ideal unicorn, you got either a great car or a great price - you can rightly call either approach a great deal for you personally. And if you get neither, well, c'est la vie, you just bought a Porsche 911 and that's pretty great anyway.

Once the deal is done, enjoy your new car and post some pictures!