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You know I have a world renowned Porsche tech (regularly has million dollar 935 rolling through his shop etc.) With my recent CEL I was on the phone with him rattling off possibilities I had read everything from scored bores to fill in the blank etc. First response out of his mouth to me was "F*** all that. Get off the forums and bring it in here."
Turned out to be a simple AOS failure which he had predicted. The amount of false data going around is incredible. Lots of good information here too, just have to swim through the swamp to find it.
Agree! The information on the forums can very misleading and cause incorrect conclusions! Glad the air cooled folks are enjoying the market lift. IT may or may not be a bubble but if you are in it for the money, sell now. As to the new stuff, it is rare for Porsche to make a poor car that is not amazing to drive.
Last edited by mjsporsche; 09-11-2015 at 10:56 AM.
yup, ims bearings, scored bores, etc are all BS and Myth until they happen to you. When there is no fairy to take care of that $25k bill, then it becomes real very quickly.
This has always been my issue here. Although these problems are generally rare, when they happen to YOU, its a very LARGE issue. Being smug about it being a myth would rub me the wrong way if I was sitting there with a junk motor.
Furthermore, doing some reading on the design of the M97 through reliable sources shows that they just aren't the best designed engines in terms of oiling and cooling.
For the most part, the cars are reliable...but a lot of people also speak highly of these cars while not considering a purchase without an extended warranty.
yup, ims bearings, scored bores, etc are all BS and Myth until they happen to you. When there is no fairy to take care of that $25k bill, then it becomes real very quickly.
This has always been my issue here. Although these problems are generally rare, when they happen to YOU, its a very LARGE issue. Being smug about it being a myth would rub me the wrong way if I was sitting there with a junk motor.
Furthermore, doing some reading on the design of the M97 through reliable sources shows that they just aren't the best designed engines in terms of oiling and cooling.
For the most part, the cars are reliable...but a lot of people also speak highly of these cars while not considering a purchas.e without an extended warranty.
I think you missed the point. No one is saying the issue does not exist but we are responding to a poster who says the issue is so common that our cars sell for 20k on the market. That's a bold face lie. Every tech and dealer I talk to (and they should know right?) say it hardly happens in late 2006, 2007-2008 models (ones with the updated bearing). And if you want to go the internet route just look at this forum - how many times do you see someone post about an IMS destroying their 997 car? I only read 2 threads that had an owner cite it as a pure IMS issue (both 2005 I believe). Again out of 130,000 cars made? And we all know you're always hear first on the internet when an owner has a problem.
Lastly search here for threads from Jake Ruby who basically says the IMS issue is so minisule in the 997.1 based on his experience. All the man does is rebuild engines. So I should take the word from someone on this forum over a renowned Porsche engine specialist and all the dealer, techs that I have talked to?
I think you missed the point. No one is saying the issue does not exist but we are responding to a poster who says the issue is so common that our cars sell for 20k on the market. That's a bold face lie. Every tech and dealer I talk to (and they should know right?) say it hardly happens in late 2006, 2007-2008 models (ones with the updated bearing). And if you want to go the internet route just look at this forum - how many times do you see someone post about an IMS destroying their 997 car? I only read 2 threads that had an owner cite it as a pure IMS issue (both 2005 I believe). Again out of 130,000 cars made? And we all know you're always hear first on the internet when an owner has a problem.
Lastly search here for threads from Jake Ruby who basically says the IMS issue is so minisule in the 997.1 based on his experience. All the man does is rebuild engines. So I should take the word from someone on this forum over a renowned Porsche engine specialist and all the dealer, techs that I have talked to?
I go with facts, not rumors.
Right, I thought the $20k thing was such obvious BS that it didn't warrant a response.
IMS is not an issue in the 997, I agree. I was speaking more generally about 996s as well, but the issue remains.
997 bore scoring is a very real thing. If you like, read some of the articles from www.hartech.org. They are alarming and informative if nothing else.
Back on topic, for me the answer to that question is most likely not. Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. Having said that one day I would consider getting a 993 Turbo as I personally think it's one of the most beautiful cars ever produced.
Having owned a couple 3.2s, and a few 993's, I'm perfectly happy with my 997.2 S and all the modern upgrades it affords while still retaining the classic lines of what I think a 911 should look like. I also can't fathom needing more power than what it provides for spirited (yet responsible) driving on public roads and an occasional DE / track day. Here are a couple pics of previous 993's I owned / enjoyed back in the day. You can never go home again....
As someone who was thisClose to buying a 993 right before the appreciation curve 2 years back (yes I kick myself 1x a while), I sometimes try to separate the fantasy with the reality.
Fantasy - Yes, it would be great to appreciate a air-cooled 911 on a nearby curvy road, and marvel at the pedigree, character and build of the Porsche 993. I wouldn't use it as a DD but strictly as a weekend ride. Plus it would be a great companion mate to the 997.
Reality - I use to own a 968. I still miss the car and think of picking one up again in the future. They had so much character and with the limited numbers made, very rare to see. But it was always a state of being proactive with it. Meaning I would always have something to fix, work on the car. That, plus the continued cost of upkeep and the limited amount of time I had all lead me to sell it. Talking to a former 993 owner who recently sold his 993 (in this market), he said the same thing to me. He got tired of always fixing things.
So the reality outstrips the fantasy to me. Thats what I tell myself anyways =)
^ Or... the fixing is part of the fun.
Since there's nothing really to "fix" on the 997, the 911 gives me a chance to get my hands dirty once in a while.
Plus, with this crazy appreciation, I'm comforted by the thought I should be able to get all the money I've put into it back when I sell.
Classic car owners have different criteria from driver car owners. It'll take some time for the 997 to be a classic, but it will get there. The ims/ rms stuff is all noise. Who cares? So, you need to spend $1500 every few years to do maintenance. Any air cooled 911 pre- 993 needs valve adjustments ($1300) every 15,000 miles. This was a big negative to owning air cooled 911s in the past and part of the reason for the love of the 993.
The 997 is a beautiful machine in nearly every respect, but it's currently still a modern, regular car and will depreciate to the point of inflection, which is probably $15,000 - $20,000 or so. This is with 150,000+ miles and wear. At this point, the driving utility of these cars is essentially gone and enthusiasts buyers come in, rebuild the engines, refurbish interiors, recondition suspensions and own them as classics to be enjoyed and appreciated. The low mileage, original versions of these cars, somewhat unjustifiably, benefit from this process and command high premiums from investors seeking rarity.
While I don't think air cooled 911s are in a bubble, I do think prices have benefited in the past 8 years or so from a weak $ vs. Euro. European buyers were able to buy cars in the U.S. at big discounts and this moved prices up. With the strengthened $ / weakened Euro, I suspect we'll see less upward pressure from international buyers, but cars don't trade in a seamless, efficient market. Lots of mitigating factors to influence values. Clearly, I've over thought this.
If you're smiling while you're driving, f@/- everything else. Enjoy the weekend/
Plus, with this crazy appreciation, I'm comforted by the thought I should be able to get all the money I've put into it back when I sell.
That is assuming you don't crash it. That's part of the problem of owning one of the older cars; your investment is always at risk of being worthless because of an accident which can deter you from using it. If you're not a collector then it's just taking up space in the garage. You crash your 997 and it's less of a long term value issue because it's going to depreciate anyway. Every time I think man I wish I still had that 993 I go wait, I'd probably never drive it because it's too valuable.
I drive a total of around 6500 miles/yr, and I have a 2-car garage. The expense of maintaining, storing and insuring a 3rd car just doesn't make sense to me. I get my aircooled fix at PCA events. It costs me enough in effort and funds to maintain my 12 y.o. 997. I've owned classics before, it's out of my system.
Here's a #1 car from a highly reputable/respected local dealer that specializes in high-end Porsches. I've seen this car and it truly is a perfect car and 100% as advertised. The asking price reflects that...
That is assuming you don't crash it. That's part of the problem of owning one of the older cars; your investment is always at risk of being worthless because of an accident which can deter you from using it. If you're not a collector then it's just taking up space in the garage. You crash your 997 and it's less of a long term value issue because it's going to depreciate anyway. Every time I think man I wish I still had that 993 I go wait, I'd probably never drive it because it's too valuable.
I agree, you do start to think twice about putting miles on it etc.. But for me buying an air cooled is first and foremost about enjoyment. The increasing value is just a bonus.
I also enjoy it taking up space in the garage. Sometimes I just go out there to hang out with the cars. Especially after a good drive when it still has that great smell of hot oil and metal.
I bought a 1987 930 with 29k miles on it in 2003 mostly untouched just needed some TLC.
Consider this when buying older air cooled cars, most of the parts are not available and what NOS parts are have mostly moved back to Germany.
The rubber, plastic and painted black surfaces are 20+ years old and hopefully in good shape, forget power steering and a decent AC system.
Cabin heating is supplied by heat exchangers that notoriously leaks exhaust into the cabin. Beginning older cars, can’t remember the exact year, did not rust protect the body tin so make sure you do a rust inspection.
For me, I absolutely loved my 930 (wife hated riding in it) and drove the snot out of it until the resale prices really started to spike which then I got too nervous to drive it because of putting miles on it and road damage, so it became a garage queen. I ended up selling it for twice what I paid for it (first time in my life selling a car) and like Ben Z said earlier, I’ve owned classics and its now out of my system.
09-11-2015, 09:10 AM
