Kinesis 996

With all the 991.2 rumours being all turbocharged, will the 997.2 be the absolute last of its kind or is it the 991?

991
Rear mid engine layout
NA
Electric steering
7 speed manual

997
Rear engine
NA
hydraulic steering
6 speed

Anyone thinks, after the 991.2 is out, being true all are turbocharged, the 997 will actually be seen as somewhat of a collector's item?

Harvey Yancey

Too many were built to be 'collectors' items but will interest eventually increase? You never know.

997.2 GT3's have exploded because of the lack of a manual transmission in the 991 GT3 and GT3 RS models. But rumor has it that the next generation 911 GT3 (992?) will have a manual. Will that negatively impact 997.2 GT3 values? The market will tell.

dasams

As noted above, too many run of the mill to be collector's items (RS versions being the exception). Having said that, low mileage one owner 993's are high coveted and 997.2's will be the same

ADias

Beyond the items mentioned above, the 997 is the last relatively small wheelbase (WB) 911. The 991 WB is 4" longer and that radically changes the car's driving dynamics. The 997 pendulum dynamics is still there and that is the soul of a 911. That is why I do not drive today a 991.

Note: the 991 is not a rear-mid-engine layout. It is a rear engine, all-in-the-rear layout. But, yes, the extra 4" WB increase makes it more balanced.

destro

I would think that the 996/997 would be analogous to the G series cars (74-89).
Much like the G series the 996/7 evolved through the years and just got better there were no trade offs between the 4 evolutions of the 996/7 cars, as each generation just got better.

It could be argued that the 997.1 Turbo was better than the 997.2 Turbo due to the mezger engine but the 9A1 engine has proved itself to be highly reliable unless you're planning to push 1000 hp to it.

I would think the 991 is similar to what happened with the 964, car got bigger, more luxuries added and perhaps felt less pure.

I am not sure about the exact production numbers but I know they made a whole lot of 996s, and about 3x more 997.1s than 997.2s

I'd say the 997 might become a collectors item in 30 years when it will fully feels unique compared to all the other cars on the road. And probably only GTS / GT3 / Turbo S cars will ask a collector premium. Also any unique colours, shades of gray / black on these cars are all too common.

Currently most people will take a 991 over a 997, and if price is the same it would be hard to NOT pick a 991 over a 997. I personally feel the 991 is too big, but if someone wanted to swap (no cost to me) for a 991 GTS manual, I'd be tempted.

Team Plutonium

Agreed.

I actually had the 991 and went back to a 997.... for me the 991 is too big and turned into a (great) GT car, a smaller version of the Panamera. The 997 feels more intimate and spartan.

Selo

.......and the 964 is the last of the 1st gen 911s. And the 993 is the last of the air cooled. And the 996 is the first water cooled, and the 997.1 is the last of the non-DFE/hydraulic steering 911s. And the .2 introduced DFE......all of these represent significant milestones for the 911 model, and make each of the models historically important. But to think the 997s are collectible because they have a shorter wheelbase than 991(while longer than the original 911) and hydraulic steering doesn't make sense to me.
What's ironic about the whole question of collectibility, IMO, is the circumstances that led to the 993 being rare and therefore collectible: I'm not the most knowledgeable on the forum, but I believe Porsche was failing as a brand. Sales in 1998 fell to around 5000 units annually, I believe. The car was antiquated in technology and performance, and was way overpriced compared to cars like the Supra, NSX, and RX7. I bought a low mileage 993 in 2010 and had it modded for the track. It was fun, but the build quality was so poor that trying to keep it up to modern car's standards was a losing battle. The fitment was terrible. I could fit my fingers between the dash and door panels. The AC didn't work well. All the head gaskets leaked by 40k miles. The stereos were Godawful. Before mods it handled like a covered wagon. By today's standards they were not great cars. But, there were hardly any built and the motor makes a cool sound. So I guess its collectible. At the risk of being labled a heretic I just don't see it. These 993 prices are insane.

jcsomerv

Agree with much of the above. 997 is last of a breed for a number of reasons IMHO:
- short wheelbased -and- front track narrower than rear
- more 'visceral drivers car'... hydraulic steering, hand brake, majority manual vs PDK & NA vs turbo, relative lack of electronic aids, can "see" the engine, smaller in size, etc
- last 911 developed/manufactured/sold by Porsche as independent company (VW bought 49% in 2009 and rest in 2012)

As far as collectibility ... The 997.2 was clearly the best iteration to date of the water cooled (no IMS, next-gen electronics, etc) + had relatively low sales volumes (2008 recession helped - my math says 43k .1 sold in the US vs. 19k .2) ... So I'd agree that a one-owner, low mileage .2 will hold value and may even appreciate.

dasams

Are you sure about that? I'd take a 997.2 over 991 all day long.

awrryan

When I had my 996, I wanted a 997. I can buy 991 without worrying about the money whatsoever. I love the look and feel of a 991. It's a great car and I want one. I'm just not sure I want one more than my 997.2. that's why haven't bought 991, even though it is "better" than its predecessor, my current car. I'd consider buying a 991 if Porsche stops making a manual Carrera and I still wouldn't want to sell my 997.2.

destro

I would too (maybe except for a 991 GTS 7 spd), but after test driving a PDK 991 S last year, I liked my car better, it felt slower but more raw and connected. But most new 911 buyers are not enthusiasts, the car is more of a status symbol. And that's why in Canada at least the dealers only stock PDK, if you want a manual its a special order car.

So 30 years from now, will Porsche be more of a luxury status brand or an enthusiast brand. Probably the former. I feel the trend is more towards refinement.

And I meant most new buyers (never owned a 911 before) would likely take a 991 over a 997.

F308gt4

If you have a 997 Targa, it's definitely the last of its kind. Sliding roof, and a hatchback. Makes the car extremely practical. I have no desire for a 991 targa, as much as the design is cool. I have kids, and the 997 targa design is just so much more livable on a day to day basis.

Selo

Also, the amount of manuals produced in the .2 decreased dramatically, as PDK was introduced in 09. Trying to find an interesting .2 turbo cab mt was pretty tough. I've given up.

Kinesis 996

Guys I have the stats for total production of 997.1, 7.2 and 991 in North America.

Just a reference point, not sure how accurate it is, so don't flame me for it. Just a little google research.

The total 997.1 production from 06-08 was 34,179 cars
The total 997.2 production from 09-11 was 18,509 cars
The total 991 production fro 12-13 (14 was not on there) was 18,970 cars, which also means that if 14 stats are out, 991 production is dramatically more than 997.2.

So seems that 997.2 production is roughly half less than 997.1.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche...American_sales

Regarding the hydraulic steering, i see a lot of 991 reviews stating the electric steering is very numb. A lot of reviews actually prefer the older 997 steering feel. Maybe is another added points for being a collectable?

destro

997.1 started in 2005, so there would be more 997.1s
and 997.2 ended in 2012 but I think only Turbos were available then.

I did some research when I bought my car... the first number is US and the second Canadian sales. These are just for Carrera S Coupes.

997 Production Numbers for Carrera 2S Coupe
05 - 2,386 / 125
06 - 2,945 / 134
07 - 1,707 / 78
08 - 1,187 / 47
09 - 1,417 / 75
10 - 454 / 55
11 - 656 / 19