GermanCarSpecialists

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Little Green

Went through something similar when trading my CPO bought at PCar dealer Cayenne S. Went to a different dealer 2 years later that had a 997 and he showed car fax issues on my Cayenne S. I spoke to my dealer that claimed it was impossible as it was clean when they took it in from a long time customer.
Timeline as follows
Bought Cayenne July 11-Clean carfax
Went to trade in car July 2013
Shows Accident on carfax that occurred December 10 and reported to carfax JANUARY 2012
13 months later. I track down the accident to somewhere in Florida. I request the accident report and pay the $25 for it. Shows Mr. Rosenfeld as driver of the Cayenne in the accident. Sure enough that was the PO of the Cayenne
Seems the car was hit front and rear in a fender bender with no air bag deployment.
Showed the accident report to my original dealer and he asks what I was looking for(Color preference, 6 speed etc).
He found several cars and then he had a trade in coming on a 991. 16 K miles, 1 owner Atlas Grey(favorite color) originally sold by my dealer. Looked at it and agreed to a buying price.
Then the trade in conversation came in to play. The Cayenne was worth roughly 20% less due to the Carfax report. My dealer made me a full trade in value offer on my car to make up for the carfax report.

It sucks but they were as duped as I was as the accident report took a year to get on Carfax.
We looked under the Cayenne with their CPO tech and we could find no evidence outside of paint meter readings that anything had been done to the car.

I would get all the info you can on the accident as errors happen. I would bring it to your general managers attention that you need to be made whole on a trade in. They need to find you a car you are happy with and give you full credit on your trade in based on no accident value

Iceter

First, CarFax only reflects the information that is given to CarFax. It is not a governmental agency or service and information reflected on a CarFax is either voluntarily given, paid for by CarFax or comes from public record. It cannot be used to definitively prove that a car has not been in an accident. The logical fallacy of argumentum ad ignorantiam applies--the lack of evidence to the contrary is not proof of the proposition.

Second, without proof and detals that the car has been in an accident, the second dealer's claims should not be believed as gospel. You need to know their source and what damage was (reportedly) done to the car, or else it didn't happen.

Third, if the selling dealer did not know about the (alleged) accident and the accident didn't surpass some legal threshhold for reporting (usually the bar is a total loss) and/or didn't cause some damage that would have prevented the car from passing the Porsche CPO (for which you paid a premium), then that dealer has no legal obligation to make you "whole". Any offer of restitution or to handle your trade as an undamaged vehicle will be done on their good will, not because they have to.

Let's get the details of this alleged accident before you proceed any further. Even if there was an accient, you need to find out the extent of the damage. It could have been very minor and the second dealer is just using it as leverage to box your trade.

Keep us posted.

Ynot

This is ethically wrong but a lot of people trade or sell their cars before it shows on carfax in fear that they will never get what they will w/o an accident. Best to get a PPI and get the paint measured.

Minok

Carfax is not an authoritative source, its a money-making enterprise, so treat it and its data as such. Carfax's value as a service is questionable at best. Will it start tracking how many smokers drive in the car, or stupid people drove it? Just because something happened with a car doesn't mean it matters in any way.

The car was stolen and recovered - so what... does it drive fine and have no damage? Does the car's value diminish if children with ice-cream ride in the back?

In the end you buy a used car as is - if it works and is mechanically as it should, then it is a used car valued by age and condition.

If you really need a clean history buy the car brand new (even there you don't know about pre-purchase repairs) or from the original owner that you trust personally.

mwolfe

Did you check her Carfax and get a PPI? CPO?

Minok

More importantly, was your wife stolen at some point and taken for a joyride with a less than ideal outcome?

BrakingBad

Used but not wrecked right?

dalancroft

At that point "PPI" takes on a whole new meaning. Just sayin'.

USMC_DS1

+1 for PPI(obviously not from the pdealer you're buying it from) from a reputable Indy. -1 for carfax. My prior m3 had flood damage(1st yrs) and frame damage from an accident (5th yr)... I sold it to carmax after 10 yrs of ownership. That's when I discovered that carmax resold it as a clean Carfax car. Don't trust Carfax... get a PPI from a reputable Indy instead. Just look up the postings by member "mypoorcar" if you still don't think a PPI is required on a CPO'd car.

Perk10

To answer your question, yes there is a way. You need to get in good with either a salesperson, manager or technician at the dealership you plan on purchasing from if you plan on purchasing from a dealership.

I wont name any names but when I was selling for a popular German car franchise (not Porsche, I'll say that), we had 5 cars stolen one night. Out of the 5 we ended up getting 3 back and with minimal body damage, the dealer fixed them up and sold them as "demos" since they had a few hundred miles. Never reported anything to Carfax since they fixed the cars in their own body shop without using insurance.

You really NEVER know what you're getting unless you trace the car all the way from its birth to your ownership.

sandwedge

Doesn't seem to matter how body damage is fixed. Hit and miss with carfax no matter how it's done. One of my 997's was rear ended. Cops were called, insurance paid for the repair, factory parts were ordered and the car's history is still clean last time I checked. Each of those things alone are supposed to trigger a report but not even all three combined did it in this case.

sy308

It is hard to say how the value may have changed on this car. For sure, it is less desirable for many potential buyers. I believe the second offer you received is right at the wholesale value. That dealer either does not want to take a chance, is more greedy, or is not familiar with the marque. Fro those of you who have never had a car stolen, when an insurance company pays out a claim like this they pay retail to the insured. The fact the car is recovered is a bonus for the the new owner. It may then be resold via various means, but the insurance company is not a retailer, so they probably are going to wholesale it or put to auction depending on the circumstances. There are plenty of websites that list such vehicles with their sorted histories of recovery and repair. In fact, this type of thing happens quite a bit, especially for industrial equipment like bulldozers, bobcats and the like. There is a whole world dedicated to recovery and resale of such equipment. Anyway, there was the potential for harm here if the dealer purchased the car from auction then sold it is as if it was never wrecked or stolen at current market price. I might also add the fact you did not inspect the car for repaint damage via a pre-purchase inspection is a risk that you took, albeit possibly unknowingly. I have never done a PPI on a car but as someone who has done body and paint work in the past, I feel comfortable accepting that risk myself. I might also add the car may be damaged in some way by the owner who would pay cash for the repair at an independent shop and thereby decreasing the chance of a carfax listing for the repair.

z3mcoupe

You could also sell the car privately. I for one would buy a car such as yours with the history provided that a PPI showed no serious signs of structural damage and the car was repaired correctly.

Such a buyer would expect to pay less than a car without the history but you'd probably get more than the second offer from the dealer.

Either way, sorry for your situation and some great advice and perspective in this thread.

McLaren997

When dealers say "we didn't know the car had been in an accident" it is pure BS because everyone that deals in used cars has a paint meter and measures the paint thickness to determine if there has been paintwork. What is sop in the industry is buy a car that has been in a wreck cheap if the carfax is clean and then sell it for full value (or CPO) and assume whoever buys it will never know and if they do find out say the quote above.